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Discussion Starter #1
Advice for a loved starved hypocrite husband?

Looking for other people’s opinions on what I should do, not that I will heed their advice no matter how good it is as I'm stubborn and stupid

Let’s start of with the basics, we have been together for over 15 years and have two kids. My wife is a good person and I love her but our relationship sucks. There is little to no intimacy, from holding hands to sex (I would kill for a back rub). It didn't start off this way but has been this way for over 10 years now.

Over the first few years of this trouble I would try different things to get her interested in me, more cuddling, helping out more, surprise gifts complements and more with little change. After months of this my frustration would build to the point that I would blow up and say that this was unacceptable and then things would change for a short time.
The problem was this wouldn't last long and things would slide and the cycled continued. Each time I would be blunt and say things need to change it was like I was guilting her into sex.

With her lack of repeated interest in me I paid close attention to how I performed in bed when we did have sex, I did and tried anything to please her. From increase foreplay to encounters that only looked after her needs, toys, gentle to rough whatever seemed to work best I did and as far as I can tell and by what she said it did work for each encounter.

About 4 years ago the cycle reached its climax again but this time I was done with this game of being rejected 99.9% of the time, I just couldn't take it anymore. I told her I was done having sex with her unless she initiated it.
It wasn't like it was often anyways, I would say no more then once a month averaged out.

With this new 'she must initiate it' rule, I stuck to my word for the most part only slipping up a few times. Things got much worse in the sex department, it became very sporadic, and months went by with nothing and even an entire year once.


With this lack of sex I turned to porn and masturbation to fill my needs. Cheating was out of the question morally for me and I doubt I could convince anyone to sleep with me other then a hooker anyways.

I kind of gave up; I loved her and staying together seemed like the right thing to do with two kids. She was just not interested in sex and I had to learn to live with it. I still showed her affection in other ways, and there were always indications I still wanted sex but she never took the opportunity.

Over time, I came accustom to the lack of sex and my dependency on masturbating, it started to feel almost normal. My wife seemed happy in our relationship and I started to believe that she just wasn't that big on sex. I always made sure that she knew I wanted her but it was never reciprocal.

Like any person my wife had some crushes, (my brother was one of them but nothing serious) including celebrities. Unfortunately in the past few years I've come across a few print outs of 'fanfic' stories from a website she has been visiting for years. It turns out she has been reading very sexually explicit stories about certain celebrities. She spends hours each day on these sites and I always thought she was just reading 'normal' stories.

I'm a hypocrite because I look at porn to get off right? This is where I think it's different, I go on and spend 10-15min looking at whatever porn I can find and do what I need to do and it's over, maybe once a week. All porn is to me is a way to release sexually as my wife is not interested in it with me I have no other outlet, porn does not fill my need for love or intimacy. My wife reads these explicit fanfic stories for hours, download youtube videos, pictures, TV shows, music, read books and magazines about her celebrity crushes. She knows where they are, what they do in there off camera life and every other detail about them. She also follows them on twitter and gets way too excited when they respond to her tweets. Last week her and a friend spent over 14 hours to meet a celebrity at a book signing. To me she gets so emotionally attached to these celebrities, that’s the part that hurts me the most.

The book signing was the last straw for me, not the signing itself but what she did after. She has posted multiple comments on twitter on how hot he is, that his arm was around her for the entire conversation and how good he smells, she even said that the signed book made her daughters year (my daughter doesn't know who this guy is). Her BBM status is a picture of him, and a comment about his looks. The first few days after she met him she was telling me how nice, sweet, hot he is.
I think if we had a normal relationship with intimacy this would be something to joke about but currently it hurts.
Something that really irritated me was her talking about him 'being the hottest guy in the world' and other like comments at my parents New Years gathering! Isn't there a time and a place for this type of talk, like a teens slumber party? I couldn't image talking that way about anyone in front of my wife and certainly not in front of her entire family?

Like I said, I'm probably just an ugly jealous hypocrite but I can't tell you how much it hurts. My wife would prefer to have an in-depth fantasy about celebrities then be with me even when I do try my best.

I already feel ugly, unwanted and un-manly if there is such a thing but she has recently commented about my gut. I'm about 20lbs over weight; I feel if I lost 10lbs it would be good. The problem I have with this, besides another shot to the ego is the fact that over the years she has put on so much weight, more than any normal person would and can't believe she is even mentioning mine. I've always been careful and sensitive about the subject with her weight why is she so blunt with me?

Well with all this I've become bitter and resentful of her over the last few weeks. I wouldn't want to have sex with her if she offered right now and I can't hold a simple conversation with her without being angry. My self-confidence is in the tank and forget having any ego at all.

Looking for advice from anyone but prefer a female perspective even if it’s to tell me I'm a pathetic jealous loser, just want brutal honesty so I can move ahead and work on what I did wrong. I'm worried that I'm just staying in this relationship for the kids.

Thanks

**Please spare me the “Porn is wrong” talk, the stories she reads are more detailed and ’hard core’ then what I look at plus I don’t build an emotional connection with the actor or character unlike her.
 

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Putting your marriage to the side here, you have serious self-esteem issues. Please get some therapy.

To be blunt, your wife sounds nuts. Her nuttiness is spreading onto you.
Don't you think his wife's neglect and rejection could be the reason for his low self esteem? I'm just saying, a man can be short, bald, fat and ugly and if his woman loves him and sees him as the most wonderful man in the world, his esteem and confidence can be out of this world.
 

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Your wife lives in her own selfish fantasy world. Her mentioning how hot these guys are, on the level she does, is very ignorant, rude, and childish behavior. On the other hand, this is about something she is lacking, as a woman. Women find it very hard to be sexual when they do not feel like a woman in other ways. It is very easy for many spouses to forget that the man or woman they married is actually a real person. Some treat the people they work with, with more respect and courtesy and kindness than they do their own spouse. I went through that. I felt like the left-over. I heard the way my ex talked to other women and how he treated them. He was always so kind and thoughtful and helpful and charming; on the phone and in person. By the time he got around to me, each evening, he let go of all that. I got short or unenthusiastic answers to my questions, if I got any at all. I got frowns instead of smiles. I got whatever 'personality' that takes no effort. I think spouses forget or don't care enough to offer their spouses the same kindness and respect they offer co-workers and aquaintences. After so long this wears a person down. It didn't matter how pretty or sexy I was, or thought I was, this lack of respect and kindness made me feel bad about myself and even jealous of those who received it from my husband. My resentment carried over to the bedroom. I know it works both ways, with husbands and wives, but I just want to point out that it is so important to keep putting in the same effort and energy into treating our spouse with respect and kindness as we do friends, coworkers, and even strangers. Your wife is filling a big void. Just as you have a need that you are fulfilling, as a woman, she has a big empty spot that needs filled. The only difference is, yours is merely physical, as you pinted out, and what you do takes 15 minutes, to find that temporary fulfillment. Hers is more emotional and is a part of her, day and night and she feeds it constantly.
And yet, you still lack the love and intimacy that you need. Maybe you could ignore her fantasies, just for now, and think about treating her in the same way you want treated BY her. You both lost it somewhere, way back, but it's going to take one of you to take the first steps and make the first moves.
Good luck and best wishes to you
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks for your responses ThrowAway and Dellia.:smthumbup:

You are right, low self-esteem has been an issue for most of my life; to add to this I also have social anxiety in many situations. When it comes to my marriage, excluding the intimacy part I’m not sure how much my lack of self-esteem and anxiety affects the relationship. I’m not a wilting flower, what I mean is that in my home life I’m very much in charge, the decision maker and my wife looks to me for guidance. This is not to say my wife isn’t an equal partner or incapable but she prefers I take the lead. I struggle sometimes to get her involved in the decision making. The reason I’m saying this is people tend to imagine a passive almost subservient person when they have self-esteem issues (or is that just me), and I’m certainly not that way at home.

The lack of intimacy between my wife and me certainly has had a huge impact on my self-esteem. ThrowWay said that I “shouldn’t be relying on her for validation” but on this subject shouldn’t my wife be the one person I do look to? “Fat, bald I am not but I am physically unattractive, not lock him in the basement or hide him under a bridge ugly but certainly on the lower end of the scale of attractiveness. My wife is the only person to have ever shown interest in me, how can one ever recover when even she doesn’t want to be with me? With no past relationships I can’t look back to build my self-confidence, how do I do it?

Dallia, maybe I was too focused on sex when I wrote that post; it’s not ‘merely’ physical either. The masturbating only takes care of the release, but there is also the need to be wanted, the desire to please the one you love, the closeness and trust and much more, it's a lot more then just physical. Beyond sex I would also kill for a backrub, have her ask how my day at work was or worry about my health and sanity as I’m forced to work 6-7days a week for financial reasons (one income, she is a stay at home mom, kind of).

I don’t want to paint my wife as this evil selfish person either; I do believe she still loves me. She has her arm around me when we sleep, makes my ‘work lunches’ from leftovers, goes to my family events, a peck on the cheek and an ‘I love you’ before I go to work, occasionally holds my hand as well as other little signs of affection.

Dallia you also said I should treat her the same way I want to be treated. Well other then back rubs (she doesn’t like them) I believe I do. Kisses, I love yous, listening, helping out ect. I also encourage her to go out with friends, she worries about money but she needs the time away from home. Forget about her fantasies? I’ve taken her to see Glee (Puck is one of her interests) and took time off so she could go to that book signing (another celebrity interest of hers) as well as a ‘film festival’ so she could watch the stars.

Anyway, I guess the most important question I have is how and who do I get help from for my self-esteem issue?
I was looking for help in the phone book and found marriage, family and addiction councillors but I’m not sure who to go see? Also, do I need to get my family doctor to recommend one or do I just call them up?

Is councelling just going to be talking in the mirror positive thinking, like SNL's Stuart Smalley "I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and dog-gone it, people like me." :rofl:

Thanks
 

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I might be one of the few that will agree that we should expect validation from our partner. Yes, I understand that. I am old fashioned about marriage and I believe, as in our vows, that we become as one. Truthfully, if I didn't expect certain things, such as validation, from my husband, I would have stayed single. He expects the same from me. To say the opposite is like saying you shouldn't depend on a friendship to offer you any friendliness. But that's my opinion. The truth is, I don't WANT another man to make me feel happy, pretty, sexy, valuable...I only want my husband to make me feel that way. It's of no worth to me from anyone else.
As far as a counselor goes, that all depends on your insurance whether or not you need your Dr's referral. I would find the counselor first and they will be able to tell you. :)
Can I offer a tiny bit of advice? Try to be playful. I don't mean in the bedroom, but whenever...I mentioned in another thread that one thing that makes me happy is my husband's laughter. I love to SEE him happy, to HEAR him happy. It rubs off, you know. Try to smile alot, laugh alot and show some excitement about things. Good luck
 

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You sound like a man whose spouse is deeply selfish and has abandoned participating in the marriage.

You are suffering from abandonment and honestly abuse both verbal and emotional from her.

You are neither sick, wrong, or crazy. You have tried to make a situation work but she is far too selfish to put any effort into being an active part of the relationship.
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I studied and wrote and essay on Fandom as it draws a certain ilk and the behavior patterns are similar to men who become addicted to porn. I strongly suggest you both get counseling.


Be aware that Fandom is a very deep rabbit hole!
Keep in mind:

1) If your wife is so heavy into Fandom, she may be mentally ill. And yes, there is a difference between just enjoying a novel or TV show and actually being involved with Fandom.

2) She is living in a fantasy void that you can't compete with as it goes well beyond normal masturbatory material.
She is addicted to the fantasy world.

3) There are all kinds of weird stuff that gets imagined in Fan Fiction.
Pretty much everything revolves around everyone having sex or raping everyone else.
You name it, it's got a Fandom: Harry Potter, Twilight, My Little Ponies, Supernatural, Star Trek, Lord Of The Rings etc.

4) As though imagining sex/rape between imaginary characters, some sects of Fandom totally believe that the acting leads of certain TV shows are secretly gay lovers and are totally hiding their relationship from the public.

5) A lot of people heavily involved in Fandom don't want sex.
They would rather write about Professor Snape "punishing" Harry.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks for all the advice, I'm currently looking for a councilor to work on my self-esteem. With the type of responses I've gotten I'm worried I've given you the wrong impression of my wife. Defending her might just be a visceral reaction because she is my wife but I feel I need too. I would describe our relationship like 'good friends'. She engages in conversations with me on topics I like but she doesn't enjoy. She occasionally holds my hand, cuddles with me at night, worries about my health. I don't think she does things purposely to hurt or neglect me or maybe I just have 'rose coloured glasses' on. I know she loves me, we are friends and she thinks I'm a good dad.

On her obsession, how can I know if I'm overreacting or not? The online stories are not explicitly sexual, kind of like romance novels with the sex scenes (don't most women reads those). She spends around 2.5 hours a day on those and youtube vids ( am I a bad person for looking at her history?). She religiously watches her shows with her celebrity interests Glee (Puck), Criminal Minds (Shemar Moore), and a renovation show (Damon) as well as others and soaps. The show don't seem abnormal its the fact that she watches the same episodes over and over on tv and youtube. Throw into the mix twitter and conversations about these men, could It be I'm just overly jealous and immature?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks, I will check out your essay. I don't think my wife is into that extreem stuff you listed but it may give me some insite.

I studied and wrote and essay on Fandom as it draws a certain ilk and the behavior patterns are similar to men who become addicted to porn. I strongly suggest you both get counseling.


Be aware that Fandom is a very deep rabbit hole!
Keep in mind:

1) If your wife is so heavy into Fandom, she may be mentally ill. And yes, there is a difference between just enjoying a novel or TV show and actually being involved with Fandom.

2) She is living in a fantasy void that you can't compete with as it goes well beyond normal masturbatory material.
She is addicted to the fantasy world.

3) There are all kinds of weird stuff that gets imagined in Fan Fiction.
Pretty much everything revolves around everyone having sex or raping everyone else.
You name it, it's got a Fandom: Harry Potter, Twilight, My Little Ponies, Supernatural, Star Trek, Lord Of The Rings etc.

4) As though imagining sex/rape between imaginary characters, some sects of Fandom totally believe that the acting leads of certain TV shows are secretly gay lovers and are totally hiding their relationship from the public.

5) A lot of people heavily involved in Fandom don't want sex.
They would rather write about Professor Snape "punishing" Harry.
 

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I am a person that believes in living life because it could over at anytime and you are not living,you are just sleep walking through.

I would say get the counseling and start working on yourself then LEAVE,you can have her as you friend when you are divorced.

There are women who will take you for who you are and love the hell out of you,but you have to take action NOW, or life is just going to keep passing you by.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Well I'm back

I've read both a 'Married Man's Sex Life' and 'No more mr. nice guy' plus countless post on here. As I stated in my other post
'http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/40183-another-smut-vrs-porn-whats-ok-whats-not.html'
I was doing the 180, I was being happier, exercising, playing more with the kids and even got a ticket to an event that I wanted to go to solo (that's. Big deal for me).

Through these books and posts here I stopped resenting my wife for not wanting me, you can't choose who you want. I feel better about myself in a general sense (still have some serious issues) and was generally happy.

I had set up a IC appointment and the morning of my wife gave me a back rub when my alarm went off. WTF? She wanted to know why I was getting up so early (on night shift that week).
Well, when I said I was going to a counselor she started to cry. She said she knew something was up because I was polite but not warm to her but happy and cheerful with the kids (guess I screwed that part up).

We talked about what I was doing to improve myself, that I still loved her but couldn't go on like this. Stated clearly that even though she loves me she obviously didn't want me (talked about her actions when she disagreed with me) and I was working on that by working on me.

Things got a little better, we had sex twice in one week (yes that's high for us)! I enjoy coming home now, we have gone out on dates, showing more affection to each other and still working on improving me.

Well that all came to a crashing halt AGAIN, sex stopped, not interested, headache, whatever. Started snooping around again and she was right back into her celebrity obsessions big time (Fanfic, movies, shows, mags ect.).

This time instead of being angry, it just hurt. I know I need to keep working on myself, still have self-esteem issues but starting to wonder if she is even worth the effort. I'm working on me, not using porn but while she professes I'm wrong and she does 'want' me, she spends LOTS and Lots of time worshiping her celebrity men, now including Magic Mike. (Pathetic, jealous of her fantasy world)

Well weeks went by and she was receptive for sex but after getting her off orally I couldn't go through with it (Physically I was ok but not mentally). Just didn't have the sexual self esteem to #uck her. ( I know, I know bad move).

Look, my general esteems is getting better, I have a more positive outlook on life but this is still a huge issue. I think she doesn't want to loose her comfortable 'beta' husband so she has duty sex with me and I'm NOT ok with that (wow, sound like a women here).

Speaking about beta versus alpha, I could never be described as an alpha but I never have been. I would say I'm much less beta then when we first met. Also I know many guys that are happly married and are certainly more beta then me. Besides how much must I change myself to meet my wife desires?

I may not be an attractive alpha male but think there has got to be a women out there that would appreciate me for more then my Fathering skills and paycheque.
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Has she always been like this with you? Or do you feel her fantasy/celebrity issue was the cause? Just like porn, its probably not the cause but a symptom of a deeper issue. If you didn't marry her like this, then sounds like something went wrong for her, or something happened to where she needed to bury her feelings in these fantasy worlds etc. She doesn't sound selfish to me really, but more possibly hurt, angry, and disconnected. The key is, to find out what happened to her. That will be hard and something you may or may not ever find out.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Has she always been like this with you? Or do you feel her fantasy/celebrity issue was the cause? Just like porn, its probably not the cause but a symptom of a deeper issue. If you didn't marry her like this, then sounds like something went wrong for her, or something happened to where she needed to bury her feelings in these fantasy worlds etc. She doesn't sound selfish to me really, but more possibly hurt, angry, and disconnected. The key is, to find out what happened to her. That will be hard and something you may or may not ever find out.
It's been a pretty dismal sex life for well over 12 years, been together for 20. Before that we were better, not perfect but better. What went wrong? you're right I couldn't tell you but over the years there has been many fights (I know now that was a bad idea) and discussions but little progress. She always professes she desires me but her actions do not show it.
I've tried many things (see other posts) but nothing changes.

Forgive me, I'm going to try an analogy here using icecream and I'm not good at it.

My wife and I like vanilla icecream. She tells me how much she likes it and that she now only wants vanilla ice cream for the rest of her life (because you have to choose one you know LOL). I dutifully bring her ice cream, mostly serving it to her, but occasionally gets it herself. After a few years she starts not getting it herself but still enjoys and accepts it when I serve.

She does have a small cup of pistachio or chocolate when I'm not around but mostly has vanilla when I am and that doesn't bother me.

Over time her interest in vanilla slows, the freezer stacks up, but chocolate and pistachio is still eaten when I'm not around. I try adding sprinkles or syrup and that works for a short time but never for long. I ask her if she still wants vanilla and she still says it's her favorite, that I should still get it and try and serve it.

I'm having issues now, the freezer is over flowing with vanilla and melted bowls and cones are being thrown out all the time.

I try different types of vanilla, different freezer settings and even offer to mix a little chocolate or pistachio into the vanilla but only on a rare occasion will she have some but most of it still gets wasted.

To my surprise I find a hidden mini freezer stacked full of half eaten tubs of chocolate and pistachio. When I confront her on it she says it's no big deal and insists that she still wants her favorite ice cream vanilla. She indicates she is uncomfortable asking for it and that I need to just serve it to her.

I try different bowls, add syrup but still rarely accepts it. The freezer is overflowing with vanilla and it's causing issues again. I suggest to her that she's not that into vanilla anymore and maybe needs to look for another favorite ice cream. She cries and tells me I'm wrong, that she loves and wants vanilla ice cream and she will work to prove it.

Again, this improves for a short time but then the freezer starts overflowing with vanilla again, the garbage continues to have empty containers of chocolate and pistachio.

Two questions
1 - have you ever seen such a lame attempt at an analogy?

2 - Would you believe your wife wants vanilla and would you continue to try?

(And yes I purposely picked vanilla to describe sex with me and the fun type for her porn :) )
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Tubes, I don't think there is anything wrong with your analogy. However, in your explanation of the vanilla ice cream analogy, I'd say it sounds like she doesn't really like vanilla ice cream anymore.

As a child I loved scrambled eggs. I did in my teens as well, but for some reason as I got older, I no longer cared for scrambled eggs, I mainly like boiled eggs or fried eggs. For some reason my taste changed in what I usually had liked for so long. To this day I do not know why either really. Ok that was my attempt at using my food analogy. :p It is true though. :)

Anyway, maybe your analogy of the vanilla ice cream is exactly what has happened, maybe you answered your own question?
 

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Tubes, I don't think there is anything wrong with your analogy. However, in your explanation of the vanilla ice cream analogy, I'd say it sounds like she doesn't really like vanilla ice cream anymore.

As a child I loved scrambled eggs. I did in my teens as well, but for some reason as I got older, I no longer cared for scrambled eggs, I mainly like boiled eggs or fried eggs. For some reason my taste changed in what I usually had liked for so long. To this day I do not know why either really. Ok that was my attempt at using my food analogy. :p It is true though. :)

Anyway, maybe your analogy of the vanilla ice cream is exactly what has happened, maybe you answered your own question?
This is exactly what I'm afraid of.

What makes this extremely difficult (besides the realization your long time love doesn't want you) is that she truly believes that I'm wrong and she does want me, but her actions prove otherwise.

How can I possible leave my wife when we have two young daughters, we have built a life together, she loves me but just can't see that she doesn't want me even though it's obvious? It would hurt my wife and kids for something only I see, and so far it's only affecting me?

Just to be clear, this is not some excuse on my part to feel ok to leave her. My wife has a much better chance then I do at finding someone else. Even though improving I'm still very much a 'beta' (as I have always been) with a low sex rank.
Couple all this with shyness, I'm in a loose-loose situation. :(
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but her actions prove otherwise.


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And I would look at her actions not her words. They obviously do not match. Just wondering, have you ever used the ice cream analogy with her? Have you explained to her what you did to us here? I wonder if she would still say she wants you but then doesn't act like it? Maybe tell her your analogy is how you truly feel. I'm not sure if it would make a difference or not, but maybe she would then know you know what is going on with her.
 

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It sounds like she loves you, but not IN love with you. For some women that makes a huge difference in how they feel sexually towards their spouse. I also think its possible she feels some guilt or shame even, because I think she knows how she feels, but she keeps telling herself maybe, if she convinces herself she wants to be with you, it will magically happen for her. Her feelings will just reappear. I doubt it happens like that.
 
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Discussion Starter #19
Wish I had some progress to report but nothing has changed. I’ve been mistaken every time I think things are moving forward in our marriage. She still insists she is interested in me but her actions indicate otherwise, a killer on my self-esteem. Even after that last conversation that included talking about divorce as an option, which she protested against she is still turning to her porn on a daily bases.
I believe I’ve given up, not sure all this is worth it. At the point now where I’m not interested in sex with her anymore. Unlike many male posters on here I’m not interested in sex with the wife if she gets her appetite elsewhere; not just looking for release, I need to feel wanted.

It sounds like she loves you, but not IN love with you. For some women that makes a huge difference in how they feel sexually towards their spouse. I also think its possible she feels some guilt or shame even, because I think she knows how she feels, but she keeps telling herself maybe, if she convinces herself she wants to be with you, it will magically happen for her. Her feelings will just reappear. I doubt it happens like that.
I agree, it’s got to be hard to admit to yourself that the person you love and have a loving and stable family with is just not who you want. Honestly, it would be a simpler problem to deal with if she had an affair. With an affair I could be angry at her, she would see that I’m not the one for her and we could move on with our lives.

TAM has been an addiction on mine, one of the reasons I don’t post often is that I spend too much time reading other posts! With all this reading I know this can’t continue for long without it ending badly, but it’s so comfortable.
For me being with my kids is VERY important, every second weekend and one night a week is just not good enough for me. I’m a good ‘beta’ husband and provide leadership to the family (my only alpha quality) I know I provide comfort to my wife and kids. So against all the great advice I get here on TAM I’m going to stick to the status quo and see how long this can last, at least till the kids are older. I don’t think I’m taking advantage of my wife, I’ve explained how I feel to her and if she decides to pull the plug then so be it, she deserves to be with someone she wants to be with. Divorce will happen in the future but I can try and work on myself in the meantime while keeping the access to my kids that I require.
 

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Oh Tubes - your situation tugs on my heart. I can completely see wanting to stay so that you can stay close to your kids. In the meantime keep working on yourself and continue to go to counseling because whether or not you divorce you are going to need the support. I hope that you have some good friends to lean on to also.

Some of my good friends and acquaintances are into (well, some are OBSESSED) with certain rock stars. Granted I like the same musicians and it was because of this that I got to know many of the women. We go to concerts together, share music, post on message boards, etc. What I see with some of them is that, like me, they just enjoy the music, sharing and getting together with friends. Some others, however, would rather do this then be with their husbands and even sometimes their kids. :confused: To me that is an unhealthy escape from reality. They have to know that they have as much chance of getting together with these rock stars as "passing a camel through the eye of a needle" (to steal a well known phrase) but evidently this past time is more enjoyable than dealing with their hubbies and sometimes kids. I often wonder what is so wrong in their lives that they do this. It's really too bad that your wife won't get into counseling too. I suspect there is something wrong or should I say even deeper than not being romantically in love with you, which is bad enough.
 
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