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Interesting article about how sex might start with "Just the tip" without it being an intentional decision, at least not on the woman's part. Got me wondering how many women lost their virginity this way, and how they later felt about it. It's not an academic question because it may explain why my wife has been in pretty extensive therapy dealing with a 9 month gap in her memory before she met me.

The point is, if you hadn't decided to have sex, no consent, but it happens without you realizing it, where does that leave you? I have a feeling this may happen quite a bit.

If so, was it manipulation? Passion that just got out of hand? Something that was eventually going to happen so no big deal? Or is it something that could fall into the category of rape for some?

I brought this up with my wife, who didn't really believe sex (we could more specifically say losing virginity) could happen without a woman being aware of it. So I told her I'd do some role playing, pretending to be a guy, like one of the several guys from her past, that was extremely into her for sex, with her saying no. I would do the "Just the tip" thing. Which I did. Please, just let me put it right there, I won't go in, let's just see how it feels, our bodies so close together. And then I distracted her with kissing and saying nice things while I very gradually moved inside. Positioning myself in a way there'd be no touching of hips, my arms and legs holding my body off of hers, nothing but a very careful arcing inward of my hips.

After a couple of minutes I asked her if we were having sex or not. She said no. So I put my hand around my penis at the point where it entered her and pulled out and showed her. She was shocked. 4 or 5 inches. We talked about it. She did not believe sex could happen that way. Without her knowing/understanding. How would she feel if that had happened to her? Normal? Coerced? Guilty? Looking back upon it, she actually thinks it's in the "rape" category. She's got a lot to talk to her therapist about now. Her therapy has not been as successful as it should be because she's been extraordinarily protective of believing what she wants to believe happened, despite diaries that were pretty specific about what did happen. But now she's suddenly open to exploring things in a very different way, and she's beginning to remember some things she didn't dare recall before.

This has had an effect on me too. The demonstration was a combination of fun, interesting and really scary. I'd never done this with a girl (my number is only two, and in both cases it was the woman who decided when) but I do remember as a teenager reading stuff, maybe it was Penthouse Forum or something similar, that explained how to seduce a reluctant woman and included how to have "accidental" sex.

It could be that no woman here can relate to this, and I'm OK with that. But maybe? Thanks, and apologize if this actually does bring up anything painful for anyone.
 

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Personally, I don't blame anyone (past sexual partners) for my choices.

Women need to come to terms with the fact that any man you date wants to have sex with you. That's a hard fact.

And a lot of the time - not always, but I'd say a majority - they'll say whatever they want/need to say to get it. One author I read refers to it as swimming with the sharks. 馃檪

So, in my personal opiinion, women need to mentally prepare themselves to deal with that truth long before they're in a situation where it 'just happens'.

The time to think about it is not when you've been making out for however long and have all your clothes off.

Where does this leave a woman, if it happens to her? Learn from it, and don't do it again. Hopefully, you don't get pregnant and/or an STD.

Was it manipulative? Of course it was.

Fall into the category of rape? Maybe so. It depends on the situation.

I read an article not too long ago of a woman who had consensual sex with a university football star. Well, his roommate came in (fellow teammate) afterwards (this was the plan between the two men), and they both raped her. Then they mocked her and videotaped her.

The point is, if you hadn't decided to have sex, no consent, but it happens without you realizing it, where does that leave you? I have a feeling this may happen quite a bit.

If so, was it manipulation? Passion that just got out of hand? Something that was eventually going to happen so no big deal? Or is it something that could fall into the category of rape for some?
 

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The point is, if you hadn't decided to have sex, no consent, but it happens without you realizing it, where does that leave you? I have a feeling this may happen quite a bit.
I don't understand how this can happen. Especially, the first few times. A girl/woman may be accustomed to using tampons; but, surely the male would be larger than a tampon. I'm guessing you weren't thrusting when you entered her so she didn't feel any friction. I won't speak to the alternatives.
 

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@Casual Observer ,

First comment: you were able to enter her without her entirely "knowing" how far you were, and she is a married woman who is sexually experienced (and by that I just mean that she has been experiencing intercourse for a number of years). Imagine a young woman who either has never had sex or is just inexperienced.

Second comment: when I was 19yo and in college, I lost my virginity by being raped. I went to a party, got drunk, passed out, and woke up with a guy inside me. Being drunk, I felt a little numb and disoriented (no it wasn't a date drug thing--just drank too much), and being a virgin I had never had a guy inside me before so I had no idea what it felt like and honestly for a while I wasn't entirely sure what was going on. At the time, I just sort of locked it away and didn't speak to the guy or do anything. Forgot about it and moved on. Years later (I was about 30yo), when I was talking about this to my counselor, I was describing what happened and he said something like "You were raped" and I said no I wasn't, I got drunk and he was making out with me when I woke up. But I DID remember waking up and feeling scared like I was in danger, and feeling guilty like I should be ashamed. That's when my counselor said, "Well think about that a moment. What made you feel that way? Were you having sex and that was against what you believed?" And that's when I realized I had been having sex! This may sound weird but I never had thought of it as sex until that day, nor had I thought of it as rape--just didn't use those words for it in my head--and I think it was partially because I didn't have much experience and didn't entirely know WHAT it was at the time. I mean, some part of you knows, but this other part of me was like "What the heck? Did that just happen? What was that?" Honestly I think it was some degree of dissociation, but again, at the time I had no idea! When I did go to counseling, I understood, if I didn't say YES and I wasn't fully conscious and he was on top of me and inside of me...it was rape!

My guess is that your wife may have had her own version of this experience. It's not so much that you don't remember. It's more like "at the time it was occuring I didn't have experience or vocabulary to put it into words." Now she is in a safer place, both within herself and with you, and she may come to realize "GOOD GOD, I did have sex. I remember feeling ___ and that was him inside me, only I was so inexperienced I didn't let myself believe it."
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Interesting comments, thanks! But ultimately the question is, how many women lost their virginity in an unplanned fashion, starting with something that seemed relatively innocent (just the tip) and went on from there? Not over time; within a single episode. And if that happened, how did you later view it?

I do totally get @Affaircare 's quote-
It's not so much that you don't remember. It's more like "at the time it was occuring I didn't have experience or vocabulary to put it into words." Now she is in a safer place, both within herself and with you, and she may come to realize "GOOD GOD, I did have sex. I remember feeling ___ and that was him inside me, only I was so inexperienced I didn't let myself believe it."
 

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Discussion Starter #7
How is it "relatively innocent" being naked with a man and having his "tip" there????

Mutual choosing to get naked/removing underwear with each over isn't "unplanned".
I appreciate that what I suggested wasn't how everyone loses their virginity and that it might seem a bit strange. Like going in with blinders on. Naive. Or just a bit foolish and self-deceptive. But as teenagers (and maybe even a bit older) we're not always thinking straight.
 

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I don't think you'll find many women on TAM who didn't or don't know when a penis is inside of them. Maybe a few like AC whose senses were dulled by alcohol or the guy had a micro-penis.

Is your wife in the habit of asking "Is it in, yet?". If not, you might want to consider she's gaslighting you.
 

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I appreciate that what I suggested wasn't how everyone loses their virginity and that it might seem a bit strange. Like going in with blinders on. Naive. Or just a bit foolish and self-deceptive. But as teenagers (and maybe even a bit older) we're not always thinking straight.
I agree, teenagers aren't always thinking straight. But honestly, like I said, I was commenting on your use of the phrase "relatively innocent" and the word "unplanned". Taking off your UNDERWEAR with a guy is anything but innocent and unplanned.
 

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I don't think you'll find many women on TAM who didn't or don't know when a penis is inside of them. Maybe a few like AC whose senses were dulled by alcohol or the guy had a micro-penis.

Is your wife in the habit of asking "Is it in, yet?". If not, you might want to consider she's gaslighting you.
Truth? Yes, she frequently doesn't know if it's "in" or not. Which could really do a number on a guy's head (ooh, wrong choice of word!!!) right? Thankfully I'm OK in that department.
 

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I appreciate that what I suggested wasn't how everyone loses their virginity and that it might seem a bit strange. Like going in with blinders on. Naive. Or just a bit foolish and self-deceptive. But as teenagers (and maybe even a bit older) we're not always thinking straight.
So you're suggesting 100% naked is an invitation for sex? I agree. She doesn't.
 

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I find the whole 'consent' movement ridiculous.

To me, it a way for women to abdicate responsibility for their choices and to put themselves in the role of victim before anything physical even happens.
Sure a young person under the influence of abstinence morality, could arrange the action right up to the point of "inevitability" (quotes because I don't believe that bit either, no matter who is saying it) and then proceed to the sex that was the point of the whole encounter with a "pure" heart that never consented. But the opposite is also true a manipulative male has slowly set the pieces in place for a checkmate, never intending to get consent. This is exactly why I claim that there is no such thing as organic and spontaneous sex.

The strength of the consent movement is that it expects conscious premeditated agreement. When I have sex, I know at the start what my goals are for the event. I have a pretty good Idea what my partner wants, and when those goals change. We inform each other.

There are plenty of problems with consent, a bunch of them can easily be traced back to abstinence morality indoctrination. A lot of them can be tied to alcohol misuse.

I agree wit you minimal me. I just think that the idea will eventually work. Mostly people on both sides of the gender line have to accept and act on their responsibility.
 

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Throughout history, the conscious, premediatted agreement has been marriage.

People have always done what they've wanted to do - prostitution, mistresses, same-sex relations, etc.

But, for the most part, up until recently (around the time of the industrial revolution), most societies held onto to the standard of marriage - and found ways to punish/shun those who publically went against the norm.

These days, it's more of a sexual free-for-all.

The strength of the consent movement is that it expects conscious premeditated agreement.
 

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Yes it is now officially a free for all. The assumption of consent at marriage had it's problems as well.
 

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Very true! But I think in the past it was understood by most women that if you chose to get married, you were going to have sex when your husband wanted sex.

The women who didn't care for that arrangement simply stayed single and celibate.

The assumption of consent at marriage had it's problems as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
This thread is moving away from the topic; it wasn't about the pros and cons of "consent" but rather, who might have lost their virginity without it really having been their intent, and how did they feel about it afterward? Something you didn't plan on happening and, had you been in a clearer state of mind, wouldn't have, but being horny/distracted allowed things to happen? There had never been a conversation, or maybe there had been, where you'd stated you weren't going to have sex, everything but, and it happened anyway. A very naive way of going about things, to be sure, and it seems like people here were either never naive or self-deceptive?
 

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Sorry. 馃槵

For me, it doesn't matter. I simply take responsiblity for whatever choices I made in the past and move on.

This thread is moving away from the topic; it wasn't about the pros and cons of "consent" but rather, who might have lost their virginity without it really having been their intent, and how did they feel about it afterward? Something you didn't plan on happening and, had you been in a clearer state of mind, wouldn't have, but being horny/distracted allowed things to happen? There had never been a conversation, or maybe there had been, where you'd stated you weren't going to have sex, everything but, and it happened anyway. A very naive way of going about things, to be sure, and it seems like people here were either never naive or self-deceptive?
 

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Sorry. 馃槵

For me, it doesn't matter. I simply take responsiblity for whatever choices I made in the past and move on.
That's the healthy way of doing things. Taking responsibility allows you to learn from those choices, some of which may have been mistakes. You did bold "it seems like people here were either never naive or self-deceptive?" Do you think that's because this is a pre-selected audience that feels more comfortable about such matters, or do you think naivete and self-deception are rare?
 

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I highlighted your specific question so that it would be obvious I was giving you an answer to something you asked. That's all. Clarity. 馃檪

As to your last question, I think, in general, our modern societies are overly comfortable sharing their private lives, and poor judgement/lack of wisdom and self-deception are common.

That's the healthy way of doing things. Taking responsibility allows you to learn from those choices, some of which may have been mistakes. You did bold "it seems like people here were either never naive or self-deceptive?" Do you think that's because this is a pre-selected audience that feels more comfortable about such matters, or do you think naivete and self-deception are rare?
 
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