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So. Many. People. are that way. My girls and I sometimes make a game of pointing out the terrible and condescending things said about males of all ages. It is terribly insulting.



There has been several comments in the thread saying that they don't know how to date. I don't pretend to be an expert, not having been on a first date since the late nineties, but I always thought that it should work a lot like hanging out with your friends or new acquaintances. You tell funny stories about your life, try to find common experiences, and do something that everyone there finds enjoyable. Is that not the way you should do it? I would be completely lost once touching of any kind started, I think, but I could probably get through an entire first date.



I might do the old fashioned thing (opening doors, paying, etc) but I would expect a distinct lack of the condescending attitude mentioned above. More than one sentence starting with "men are..." followed by an insult would probably mean there wouldn't be a second date.
I think my biggest problem is the part before the actual date--how to meet men and secure an actual date. I'm horrible at flirting, and I never know how to strike up a conversation with a man I find attractive.

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Pop culture does a lot to perpetuate this. How many modern TV sitcoms feature a super-efficient, put-together hot mom with a bumbling, chubby (sometimes slovenly) dad who always screws everything up? It sends a horrible message, multiple messages, actually:

1) men are dum dums who can't do anything right; and
2) even if you're a slovenly idiot, you still deserve a hot girl who will fall over herself to have sex with you

As much of a cultural pariah as Bill Cosby is right now, the Cosby show presented much better relationship role models than any modern sitcom.

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Love this post and couldn't agree more.
 

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I think my biggest problem is the part before the actual date--how to meet men and secure an actual date. I'm horrible at flirting, and I never know how to strike up a conversation with a man I find attractive.

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LOL, I can't help at all there. I've literally never asked anyone out before. I was asked out by a couple of the high school trainers and the little sister of one of my friends. My wife of 20 years was a blind date set up through a mutual friend. And that's the extent of my dating experience.

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You compared me saying standards reflect self worth with the car you drive reflecting financial worth. I disagree. Not everyone values a car, so they wouldn’t put a lot of money into it. But standards meaning... how you expect to be treated, does reflect self worth to a certain degree. Some people have little self worth they are willing to put up with abuse, and bad treatment.

What I mean about too high and too low standards is needing to be treated a certain way before you can pass go.

For example, I have a girlfriend that thinks men should treat a women they are interested in a certain way. So she needs the man to setup a date. Pay 100% the bill. Open doors, and walk her to her door etc. she is the type of women who would stand by the car door waiting for it to be opened for her. And walk back in the house if it wasn’t.

Some women have no standards. They set up the first date, are willing to keep trying to set up dates even when the guy cancels, they don’t expect the man to pay the bill, they are the ones always reaching out, they are easy to have sex with even though you didn’t have to work that hard or even be that nice. Women, they essentially chase men and are happy with scrapes of effort.
So where are these women? More especially the older, empathetic, intelligent ones, who aren't jaded or narcissistic in nature?
 

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Here’s the thing... I never really learned how to date. It was never taught or explained to me by my mom or whoever. All I had was a guide from the church. I married my high school sweetheart, and now that I am dating again I don’t really know how to.
I wonder where we all learn how to date? Who teaches young girls and young boys how to treat the other?
Does anyone actually get taught how to date? I certainly wasn't. To me its just meeting with someone and chatting and getting to know them and seeing if you have anything in common.
I married young, at 19, engaged at 18, so didn't have that much experience of dating compared to many. I did have 2 boyfriends before my first husband, one at age 15-16 and one at age 17, both lasted several months, the second emigrated to OZ with his family, so that was that.
I don't think dating is something that can be taught though.

Once my first marriage ended after 25 years and I had had 4 years to recover a bit, I began dating again(online). By then my standards were far higher in what I wanted in man. Not the usual, 'he must be rich', or 'he must be tall' sort of shallow standards, but things like, he must be a strong Christian, he must not expect sex outside marriage, no porn, completely honest, have integrity etc etc. Pretty hard to find a man like that in the UK(or anywhere I suspect), so I only had a date with 3 men in the 2 years before I met my husband. I got on well with one of them but he was still pretty messed up from his divorce so that wasn't an option as I was more than ready to marry again by then.
Then I met 'the one' who was all I wanted and asked for, and the rest is history.
 

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Here’s the thing... I never really learned how to date. It was never taught or explained to me by my mom or whoever. All I had was a guide from the church. I married my high school sweetheart, and now that I am dating again I don’t really know how to.
I wonder where we all learn how to date? Who teaches young girls and young boys how to treat the other?
Sometimes in your posts I sense a bit of rigidity to a set of rules or requirements for a relationship. I don't think anything is particularly wrong about those things you're looking for. Those are the things you want in a good partner. But comparing your partner strictly against those requirements may mean you're unhappy because he doesn't match the standard as opposed to him not being a good person.

As an experiment, maybe you should go out with guys which don't meet those standards you were raised with. Still go out with decent guys, but don't be so concerned if he doesn't check off all the boxes for chivalry or whatever. As long as he's respectful, kind, treats you well, and so on, see how it goes. If you aren't happy with something he's doing, think about if it's because he's not meeting a standard your mom told you or if it's something that is objectively bad. For example, not doing 100% of the planning for a date is not inherently bad. It may not be your preference, but it's not the sign of a bad person. But ignoring your texts for days is inherently bad since it shows a lack of respect and concern for your feelings.

I doubt many people were taught how to date. I think most people just stumble through the process as best they can. Don't be afraid of making mistakes or going out with people you don't click with. Just say "oh well", chalk it up to experience, and move on to find someone better. One regret I have from being young is being too concerned with finding someone to have a long relationship with. I wish instead I had dated many girls just to have fun and see where it went. Instead, I would hold out for the perfect partner which means I probably passed up many girls who would have been great partners.
 

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Sometimes in your posts I sense a bit of rigidity to a set of rules or requirements for a relationship. I don't think anything is particularly wrong about those things you're looking for. Those are the things you want in a good partner. But comparing your partner strictly against those requirements may mean you're unhappy because he doesn't match the standard as opposed to him not being a good person.

As an experiment, maybe you should go out with guys which don't meet those standards you were raised with. Still go out with decent guys, but don't be so concerned if he doesn't check off all the boxes for chivalry or whatever. As long as he's respectful, kind, treats you well, and so on, see how it goes. If you aren't happy with something he's doing, think about if it's because he's not meeting a standard your mom told you or if it's something that is objectively bad. For example, not doing 100% of the planning for a date is not inherently bad. It may not be your preference, but it's not the sign of a bad person. But ignoring your texts for days is inherently bad since it shows a lack of respect and concern for your feelings.

I doubt many people were taught how to date. I think most people just stumble through the process as best they can. Don't be afraid of making mistakes or going out with people you don't click with. Just say "oh well", chalk it up to experience, and move on to find someone better. One regret I have from being young is being too concerned with finding someone to have a long relationship with. I wish instead I had dated many girls just to have fun and see where it went. Instead, I would hold out for the perfect partner which means I probably passed up many girls who would have been great partners.
As did I! Was not what you'd refer to as a prolific dater in either my high school or undergrad or grad college days!

2 fairly long-term relationships in college, as I thoroughly loved the security of having a girlfriend, much like my frat brothers!

In grad school, I didn't really have time for a relationship much less dating!
 

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I hear all the time, have standards, don’t lower your standards. Having standards is a reflection of self worth. If you don’t have any standards one would say negative things like your easy, desperate, have low self esteem/worth. If your standards are too high then people would say your unrealistic, high maintenance, impossible expectations, and judgmental.

So what are normal standards when dating? Has anyone ever dated someone with too low or too high of standards and what did that look like?
I have heard men complain that women have too high standards for men. I do think that most women meeting the average man would find him below average in every respect. This is reflected in women often wondering why all the me are below average.

But, that makes sense. Women historically have a lot more to lose in a bad relationship.

I am writing this from a male perspective. It is only from one angle, and it will be limited.

As a man dating in the USA, who was considered desirible, I really had my pick, because this skewed perception made me rare. Great for me, but not great for women generally.

I also see something in the USA (though not as much as the UK), where a virtue is made of victimhood. Really, the vast majority of men are fully house trained and take responsibilty round the house and look after their woman when they are both ill. Because this is taboo to say, the women who are dumped with a man who is as women describe their man (i.e. a slob) end up thinking that is normal.
 

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You compared me saying standards reflect self worth with the car you drive reflecting financial worth. I disagree. Not everyone values a car, so they wouldn’t put a lot of money into it. But standards meaning... how you expect to be treated, does reflect self worth to a certain degree. Some people have little self worth they are willing to put up with abuse, and bad treatment.

What I mean about too high and too low standards is needing to be treated a certain way before you can pass go.

For example, I have a girlfriend that thinks men should treat a women they are interested in a certain way. So she needs the man to setup a date. Pay 100% the bill. Open doors, and walk her to her door etc. she is the type of women who would stand by the car door waiting for it to be opened for her. And walk back in the house if it wasn’t.

Some women have no standards. They set up the first date, are willing to keep trying to set up dates even when the guy cancels, they don’t expect the man to pay the bill, they are the ones always reaching out, they are easy to have sex with even though you didn’t have to work that hard or even be that nice. Women they essentially chase men and are happy with scrapes of effort.
I have seen this. It seemed to me that because they so rarely saw a man they percieved as reasonable, they were willing to sacrifice too much. I have had told women that I am not worth the extent required, but I am nice.

Or they might have a crushed ego.
 

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Discussion Starter #70
I have heard men complain that women have too high standards for men. I do think that most women meeting the average man would find him below average in every respect. This is reflected in women often wondering why all the me are below average.



But, that makes sense. Women historically have a lot more to lose in a bad relationship.



I am writing this from a male perspective. It is only from one angle, and it will be limited.



As a man dating in the USA, who was considered desirible, I really had my pick, because this skewed perception made me rare. Great for me, but not great for women generally.



I also see something in the USA (though not as much as the UK), where a virtue is made of victimhood. Really, the vast majority of men are fully house trained and take responsibilty round the house and look after their woman when they are both ill. Because this is taboo to say, the women who are dumped with a man who is as women describe their man (i.e. a slob) end up thinking that is normal.


I agree. I think that women perceive men as lazy and not putting in enough effort, and men perceive women as being too high maintenance or too high standards or too much work and not worth the effort.

I think that generally speaking women put a lot of effort in their lives... just appearances alone take way more effort than men will ever realize. And on top of that we want our homes to look nice and decorated. We put effort into those things where as men put less effort into such things.
 

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I agree. I think that women perceive men as lazy and not putting in enough effort, and men perceive women as being too high maintenance or too high standards or too much work and not worth the effort.

I think that generally speaking women put a lot of effort in their lives... just appearances alone take way more effort than men will ever realize. And on top of that we want our homes to look nice and decorated. We put effort into those things where as men put less effort into such things.
Yes.

I also think that these things are highly sensitive to the culture and generation. For my generation, I saw a huge variation is expectations of effort and responsibilities in my generation between France, UK and Scandinavia. My Mum will forever believe that I finish work and laze around while my wife looks after me, and that is not something even my wife can dissuade them from!
 

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Womens standards do seem rather higher than men. Men are generally happy with a mate that is :
1. Agreeable (not a lot of drama)
2. Sexually satisfying (atleast 2-3 times a week on average)
3. Cooks a hot dinner a few nights a week

When one of these things gets out of whack, it tends to throw the man's whole world off kilter and we start etching boobies on cave walls and blowing stuff up.
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Womens standards do seem rather higher than men. Men are generally happy with a mate that is :
1. Agreeable (not a lot of drama)
2. Sexually satisfying (atleast 2-3 times a week on average)
3. Cooks a hot dinner a few nights a week

When one of these things gets out of whack, it tends to throw the man's whole world off kilter and we start etching boobies on cave walls and blowing stuff up.


Yes men and women have different needs and men’s seem to be less complicated. Also men generally are easier to make happy. Women take work and effort.
 

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Yes men and women have different needs and men’s seem to be less complicated. Also men generally are easier to make happy. Women take work and effort.
Stereotypes in relationships tend to be self-fulfilling prophecies.

I can find plenty of men who think women are dingbats, and all of the evidence that comes their way "proves" they're right, the other kind of evidence steering well clear of them.
 

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Stereotypes in relationships tend to be self-fulfilling prophecies.



I can find plenty of men who think women are dingbats, and all of the evidence that comes their way "proves" they're right, the other kind of evidence steering well clear of them.
You hit the nail on the head with this one. I see this over and over, both in real life and here on TAM, with both men and women and their preconceived notions about the opposite sex.

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I think you should have standards. In other words, you should be looking for somebody who brings something to the table comparable to what you can bring. If you are a woman and you only attract guys who want to "date" you but don't want anything serious, you may want to think about what you bring to the table for a long-term relationship.

A lot of time what people are talking about by "standards" are things like physical attractiveness, education, charisma and money. In other words, what would make someone a desirable person to bring to a party as your partner. That's not necessarily the characteristics that would make a person a good spouse or parent.
 

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I doubt many people were taught how to date. I think most people just stumble through the process as best they can. Don't be afraid of making mistakes or going out with people you don't click with. Just say "oh well", chalk it up to experience, and move on to find someone better. One regret I have from being young is being too concerned with finding someone to have a long relationship with. I wish instead I had dated many girls just to have fun and see where it went. Instead, I would hold out for the perfect partner which means I probably passed up many girls who would have been great partners.
As did I! Was not what you'd refer to as a prolific dater in either my high school or undergrad or grad college days!

2 fairly long-term relationships in college, as I thoroughly loved the security of having a girlfriend, much like my frat brothers!

In grad school, I didn't really have time for a relationship much less dating!
I was concerned that I would end up marrying anybody that I dated. I also believed I would get a better quality woman once I proved my worth through education and career. So, I waited until I was out of graduate school to have a girlfriend. (One girlfriend, who I married.) I'm not saying that it was right but that's what I did. I simply wasn't on the market, though some females did attempt to pull me on.
 

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Good topic. I most definitely have standards, things I expect that I’m not willing to bend on. My past history includes some mental/emotional abuse so I’m greatly influenced by those experiences. I expect mutual respect and kindness. If I begin to see even the slightest sign of disrespect or dishonesty he gets cut off immediately. I do have standards for physical appearance. If I don’t have a double chin or a belly that hangs over my belt then he shouldn’t either.

I’m pretty flexible on almost everything else. Brown, blonde, red, black or no hair, I’m flexible. If you want to hold the door me I’m fine with that but if you don’t I’m a big girl and can do it myself. If you want to pay for my dinner it’s all good but let me pay for yours next time. Hobbies? You have a passion for something? Awesome! Everything else can be worked on and through together.

My standards are definitely a reflection of who I am and if your watching and listening very closely when your dating me you’ll learn a lot about me through the choices I make and the things I do.
 

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Not dating but when I was I would have said. Character, having some care about your appearance, chemistry.
 
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