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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, considering my background in infidelity and that I want to move to USA at some point and regarding that I want a family and children at a point...

I decided to read "Women's Infidelity - Living In Limbo". I understand that I am just begging for triggers, mind movies and anxiety attacks. But if it's gonna help I want to read it.

Did any of you guys read it? Is it a good read? Does it actually bring some solutions to infidelity?
 

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Probably not. Im just curious.... How much of it have you read so far? Yeah im not a man but still curious about this topic. Do you really think it would help you? If so... How?
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Read some of the reviews... Like this one:

"Men, when she says "I do" she means "I do, until I get bored and/or a guy with a bigger/better... um, 'capability' to make me orgasm comes along." That is it. No kidding, you'll be glad you read this. Worth the money and it's MUCH less than alimony or child support for a kid that's not even yours."

Or this one:

"The problem with the book is that the author goes way too far in her sometimes ridiculous attempts to justify women who cheat by claiming it is a result of years of sexism, patriarchy and oppression. It is unclear, why she would do this. Maybe to justify her own history of affairs"

I think that many "self help" books carry such a massive author bias masquerading as objective research that it can almost make them dangerous to read.

I suspect that if I had read a book like this when I was young, I would have *absolutely* stayed single.

Who wants to think that unless you walk an absolute perfect tight rope, endlessly adjusting to perfectly suit the behavior of your partner whose wants and desires you can barely comprehend and they feel no pressure to articulate, you will end up horribly betrayed?

Maybe thats true, and if so thats really terrifying, but personally I'd rather not be that cynical and jaded going in. I can see how it can hurt, but I really don't see how it can "help" honestly.
 

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Wow.... All I have to say is.... I would smack the author if I ever met them in person.... I hate books like that.
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TO BE FAIR... that was just two reviewers perceptions guys...

They may be WAY off and this book may be excellent.

What I'm saying is I know myself well enough to know that I'd probably not be able to read something like that objectively due to my *own* insecurities.

I hope that makes sense!

I don't mean to take away from that author or her work at all. I guess I'm saying its always "know thyself" and proceed with caution with *any* self help stuff so the impact it has on you doesnt end up negative.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Finished the first book(Women's Infidelity - Living In Lımbo). Yeah yeah I know very fvcked up that reading a book that would seemingly effect my life in 5 or so years later... but it was enlightening in not only female infidelity but other concepts as well. Fvck people, I wish I was studying towards my med school board(which is in frigging 6-7 months!) exams this enthusiastically.

The book is written as a conversation between her and her friend who has found his wife to have checked out of the marriage and/or having an affair.

I enjoyed it and it somewhat changed how I view female sexuality, some of the reasons for infidelity( actually reasons for the low boundaryies and the feeling of the affair partner as soulmates...), the concept of conditional love under the guise of "unconditional" love, the use of shame as a sexual deterrent, male paternal insecurity, how seeing women "naturally monogamous" inhibits them from learning about their sexuality and making conscious decisions to actually become "consciously and willingly monogamous" etc.

It also gives interesting insight to the concept of marriage in western countries: How men and women are conditioned to commitment, but how it actually makes commitment "less". How people actually think of life as having end points. I have to say I realized this, too, both in my own life and others, basically we are conditioned to this "happily ever after" concept, thus we actually don't make the effort of understanding ourselves or work on life. Maybe it's Disney and cartoons(where life is inherently joy-bringing and no extra effort is needed) or the fact that feel-good movies that have the effect of in the end things will always work out in a politically correct way and they will stay that way forever.

The writer seems to have come to terms with her infidelity and her "so called reasons" (Actually it's not mentioned in the book that she cheated or not, but she definitely checked out of her marriage for some time) She actually confesses that female infidelity created in her and obviously a lot of other married women, the same feeling black people had after OJ Simpson was acquitted. I have to commend her for being actually inquisitive enough to look inside. Not many wayward or betrayed spouses are unfortunately able to do that.

It actually comes as having "No More Mr. Nice Guy" concepts near the end, as she explains to her friend, that whatever happens it can only hurt him as much as he lets them, how he can handle anything if he makes a conscious decision, how his actions should not come out of fear but out of strength from knowing that etc.

It also has some TAM concepts of dealing with the infidelity of your wife. There are stories of several husbands, who even after years of their wives separating and blatant proofs that pointed to affairs, couldn't come to realize that they were in affairs, that they weren't the "sexually unwilling good girl" that society has led every frigging person to believe. There are also two(unfortunately only two) stories of men who moved on without becoming codependent and without letting fear put unnecessary inhibitions on their actions. One of them reconciled, setting strong boundaries and necessities he would need to reconcile. One of them just moved on and when his wife tried to come back he realized that his life was actually better after making a conscious decision and sticking with it, so he didn't want his wife back and continues with the divorce instead.

I found the book very insightful. At times it had me soulsearching, why I wanted a woman to be monogamous to me and whether it was realistical to be monogamous on those grounds. It gave me a clear view of how women do not "lose" any of their inherent values from sex, and the male doesn't "gain" any inherent value after sex. It also brought me to the realization that holding onto some of the misguided marriage 1.0 values(in both men and women) was actually destructive to the enjoyment we could get from marriage 2.0(my words not the authors)Coming from a sort of conservative background and living in a country where females are a bit second class(although we weirdly don't have any economic gap between genders.) and female sexuality is condemned, although I thought of myself as a bit more progressive from the rest, I was letting unnecessary insecurities guide my perception of women. It also encourages having more honest, meaningful and bonding relationships with men(which is also a NMMNG concept,too) , and learning through their life experiences, giving insight to them to let them learn about yours. It also encourages these relationships as in a way that destroys the need for codependency in marriage.

Maybe it doesn't have all the answers about female infidelity, but it certainly gives a perspective. I am looking forward to reading to reading the second book.(Women's Infidelity II: Breaking Out of Limbo)

I also would like to discuss the book and its concepts if any person decides to read it or has read it already.
 

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Hey Shadow! Thanks for doing the heavy lifting and posting that! You have done us a service with that review :) Now get your priorities straight and study for your damn boards! ;) In all seriousness, good luck with your studies! You are on a great path.

My issue with that book would come towards the end, I suspect, where she starts to discuss the nature of monogamy.

I feel like this is *always* the endgame in rationalization of a lack of self control. And maybe it's true. But if it's true, then there is 0 reason to get married. And when some women ask "why won't men commit?" well... The answer is "they read Michelle Langley"! :rofl:

It sounds noble to say "if you are strong enough then no one has the power to hurt you, so man up!!!!"

But here is what I do normally... If I bump into a dude that is 6'5" 300lbs of muscle accidentally, I *quickly* say "hey excuse me man... my bad" very sincerely :D Thats called "avoiding pain". I think its better than working on your jaw strength to the point where maybe his right hook doesn't dislocate it! hahahahahaha

As I feared, I suspect if I read that book as a young guy, and truly took it to heart, I'd have just decided that the risk simply wasn't worth it and consigned myself to a life of masturbation. :smthumbup:

Now given how my life has gone with my SO, *maybe* that would have been better! But then I look at my daughter and realize that all of the "rough spots" (and they were *rough*) were worth it.

I also look around here at couples that managed (gasp) to stay with each other for *decades* and no one felt the need to go fvck someone else "marriage 2.0" style, and realize that not *everyone* has to revert to the 2M year old paleolithic urge that is lurking down deep in reptile brain.

I'd rather *start out* an optimist and then, if I crap out and get unlucky, become bitter and jaded :D

It seems it is very much in vogue today for "marriage guides" to simply advocate an "open marriage". I think thats a total load of BS (and I've been *there* too, so I speak from experience) If that's really someone's view then I would say advocate just staying single (legally single) and emotionally guarded.
 

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A little late to the party here. But I did read her first book on "Women's Infidelity". To be honest, it scared the hell out of me because it basically says that all women have the urge to become dissatisfied around years 7-15 in a relationship and there is nothing you can do about it. Some cheat some don't.

It also says that about 78% of the married women surveyed said they would definitely cheat if they knew for a fact that their husband would never find out.
 

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A little late to the party here. But I did read her first book on "Women's Infidelity". To be honest, it scared the hell out of me because it basically says that all women have the urge to become dissatisfied around years 7-15 in a relationship and there is nothing you can do about it. Some cheat some don't.

It also says that about 78% of the married women surveyed said they would definitely cheat if they knew for a fact that their husband would never find out.
Aaaaah! Is there a "horrified" smiley somewhere? I need it! :rofl:

See that's what I mean. Now maybe all of that is true... But damn. If it is, I'd honestly rather just not know and hope I "get lucky" (and of course I didn't! LOL).

What I would like to hear though is, if that is true about the 7-15 year "going to bang a better guy" rule, *what* can someone do to head it off? Is it *really* nothing? Maybe it is. In my own personal situation I admit I wasn't the greatest, but I also wasn't horrible. And at least part of why I wasnt so great was directly the result of her behavior. And of course some of that was due to *my* earlier behavior. But in the end, the leap to having a blatant and destructive EA/PA was all her and there was no "opening up" or "come to jesus meeting" or "reading the riot act" or anything that lead up to it.

I get that women are complex, nuanced, multi-layered creatures. But no one can read minds and women also seem *really* good at masking what is going on. Sometimes through passive aggression, but sometimes just through a total obfuscating mask! Also, what is "right" for one woman may *not* be "right" for another.

Good example... My wife's primary "reason" for cheating was that I had become distant, emotionally and physically unavailable, and she felt unloved and unappreciated. To me, I didn't realize any of that, but in hindsight I "get it". On the flip side though, I make decent money and always have and work is usually intense for me (and listen up Shadow... because this WILL be you once you pass those boards and get through med school! ;) )

Now... another couple; friends of ours ironically... The wife *also* cheated (my wifes friend). Her husband DOTED on her. Literally worshipped her. But he was broke really. Underemployed and not likely to ever make big money. She cheated with a lawyer at her firm (legal secretary). Her thing was she was just "swept away" by a guy with money and "power". When she learned about out situation, she could *not* understand how my wife could do that to me. My wife could never understand how SHE did that to HER husband. "But he WORSHIPPED you!"... "But he makes GREAT money and you have it EASY!" Maybe he and I should have just switched at that point!

Ultimately, me and him were left thinking... WOW! if we could MERGE we'd be SUPERMAN. Of course as superman, maybe you're better off flying solo ;)
 

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Aaaaah! Is there a "horrified" smiley somewhere? I need it! :rofl:

See that's what I mean. Now maybe all of that is true... But damn. If it is, I'd honestly rather just not know and hope I "get lucky" (and of course I didn't! LOL).

What I would like to hear though is, if that is true about the 7-15 year "going to bang a better guy" rule, *what* can someone do to head it off? Is it *really* nothing? Maybe it is. In my own personal situation I admit I wasn't the greatest, but I also wasn't horrible. And at least part of why I wasnt so great was directly the result of her behavior. And of course some of that was due to *my* earlier behavior. But in the end, the leap to having a blatant and destructive EA/PA was all her and there was no "opening up" or "come to jesus meeting" or "reading the riot act" or anything that lead up to it.

I get that women are complex, nuanced, multi-layered creatures. But no one can read minds and women also seem *really* good at masking what is going on. Sometimes through passive aggression, but sometimes just through a total obfuscating mask! Also, what is "right" for one woman may *not* be "right" for another.

Good example... My wife's primary "reason" for cheating was that I had become distant, emotionally and physically unavailable, and she felt unloved and unappreciated. To me, I didn't realize any of that, but in hindsight I "get it". On the flip side though, I make decent money and always have and work is usually intense for me (and listen up Shadow... because this WILL be you once you pass those boards and get through med school! ;) )

Now... another couple; friends of ours ironically... The wife *also* cheated (my wifes friend). Her husband DOTED on her. Literally worshipped her. But he was broke really. Underemployed and not likely to ever make big money. She cheated with a lawyer at her firm (legal secretary). Her thing was she was just "swept away" by a guy with money and "power". When she learned about out situation, she could *not* understand how my wife could do that to me. My wife could never understand how SHE did that to HER husband. "But he WORSHIPPED you!"... "But he makes GREAT money and you have it EASY!" Maybe he and I should have just switched at that point!

Ultimately, me and him were left thinking... WOW! if we could MERGE we'd be SUPERMAN. Of course as superman, maybe you're better off flying solo ;)
The author of the book is a woman. She explains that she had a great life, a wonderful husband, financial security, a great child - she had every woman's fantasy. But around year 8 of her marriage she began to have the nagging feeling of not being satisfied with what she had. That there was something missing. She wondered if other women felt the same way.

That is when she started surveying and interviewing women about relationships. Like I said, the conclusions that these interviews and surveys reveal scared the hell out of me.

She started writing books after years of studying and collecting data, so the points she makes can not be easily dismissed.
 

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The author of the book is a woman. She explains that she had a great life, a wonderful husband, financial security, a great child - she had every woman's fantasy. But around year 8 of her marriage she began to have the nagging feeling of not being satisfied with what she had. That there was something missing. She wondered if other women felt the same way.

That is when she started surveying and interviewing women about relationships. Like I said, the conclusions that these interviews and surveys reveal scared the hell out of me.

She started writing books after years of studying and collecting data, so the points she makes can not be easily dismissed.

Yes, I am somewhat familiar with her. I agree with all of that except for the last part. Im not saying it *can* be easily dismissed, but you never *really* know when something isn't a professionally peer reviewed paper, but rather is a work created for commercial gain, how "deep" the "research" really is. There is a lot of junk science and BS designed to line the pockets of the author.

That said, I'd love to hear the thoughts of TAM women on this whole topic and if Ms. Langley really is onto something, how the heck any guy has a shot at averting disaster!


VERY VERY interesting link for anyone on this thread:

http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011...and-womens-infidelity-on-the-tom-leykis-show/

Particularly this note in the comments:

"I think Langley is so/so. I read her book a few years ago. While it has some insights, much of it is directed at needling men (e..g, she has a lengthy section about the importance of penis size that is clearly designed to shame men with average sized penises as being flatly unattractive to women — no doubt the case for Langley, as she is a size queen, but she over-generalizes — something which recurs throughout the book)."

See what Im saying? Agenda Agenda Agenda. Author bias and baggage. Always very risky.
 

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FYI the author is a woman; Michelle Langley.
I seen that. If you think the author being a woman makes a difference to me your sadly mistaken. Any so called self help book that claims all women will only be loyal until something "better" comes along is full of shyt. The reason I said them is because there are books like this written by men as well that generalizes and paints a shallow picture of men.

Now I did read shadows post and while I think it may give good insight on why infidelity may happen I realize that its just his pov and take on it. Like quant said earlier we cant really make an opinion on something like that unless we read it ourselves. Which I intend to now but I will say this. If its another just generalizes women and if it does advocate open marriage vs monogamous... Yes I still want to slap her.


There are some women who are truly loyal and monogamous even after an "I do".
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The author of the book is a woman. She explains that she had a great life, a wonderful husband, financial security, a great child - she had every woman's fantasy. But around year 8 of her marriage she began to have the nagging feeling of not being satisfied with what she had. That there was something missing. She wondered if other women felt the same way.

That is when she started surveying and interviewing women about relationships. Like I said, the conclusions that these interviews and surveys reveal scared the hell out of me.

She started writing books after years of studying and collecting data, so the points she makes can not be easily dismissed.
Studies and research done by this author was no doubt done by seeking to validate her view point not actually consider something other then it. Which is why research and studies dont mean jack to me. I will not let women like her speak for me nor will I let some statistic determine how my relationship turns out.
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I'm starting to wonder. Maybe not an open marriage, but rather no marriage. There are some logical points to be made when you look at the statistics. I have never thought this way before. I was utterly convinced that marriage was the best way. It's really sad.
Marriage and relationships are hard but imo worth the effort. There may be very painful times but if both partners are willing to make the effort, they do come out stronger after rough times. Of course for some the single life may be best and thats perfectly ok too. Im not against someone doing what works for them.
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Marriage and relationships are hard but imo worth the effort. There may be very painful times but if both partners are willing to make the effort, they do come out stronger after rough times. Of course for some the single life may be best and thats perfectly ok too. Im not against someone doing what works for them.
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+100

Think of it this way... It nothing else the chance of meeting a gal like Gaia makes it all worth it, IMO. :)

And even when it does go bad, it isn't black and white. My wife and I have been through some insane crap, but I still trust her completely and she does me. I understand where we went wrong and I know we have grown from it. It sounds insane to someone on the outside, but it works.

Books written by jaded cynics out to make a buck paint a picture of hopelessness that is absolute.

That goes back to what I was saying that if you know you might be sensitive to that kind of rhetoric, avoid it IMO. It's like any other indoctrination into a negative ideology that fattens the coffers of the one preaching it.
 

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A little late to the party here. But I did read her first book on "Women's Infidelity". To be honest, it scared the hell out of me because it basically says that all women have the urge to become dissatisfied around years 7-15 in a relationship and there is nothing you can do about it. Some cheat some don't.

It also says that about 78% of the married women surveyed said they would definitely cheat if they knew for a fact that their husband would never find out.
The same sort of numbers hold true for men. Also, men and women cheat a close to the same percentage in marriage these days.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I'm starting to wonder. Maybe not an open marriage, but rather no marriage. There are some logical points to be made when you look at the statistics. I have never thought this way before. I was utterly convinced that marriage was the best way. It's really sad.
Actually she comes off as rather pro-marriage... But she says that most women today think it as a natural progression of their own life, thinking that they won't have to make a conscious choice into marriage, thinking that men don't want to be in marriages, so they would have to trick them into marriages(although that is severely unnecessary). She says that when you think that you think yourself as "naturally monogamous", that you won't have any idea when the inital attraction phase fades with your spouse and you have a crush on somebody, thinking that your first choice was bad, and now "Mr. Right" has come to sweep you off your feet. The whole soulmates concept. In which I agree. When a person is unaware that during their life and when in a relationship they will have crushes on other people and it's perfectly normal and it doesn't have to mean a thing, you get people who are unaware of themselves, meaning they will have poor boundaries.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Marriage and relationships are hard but imo worth the effort. There may be very painful times but if both partners are willing to make the effort, they do come out stronger after rough times. Of course for some the single life may be best and thats perfectly ok too. Im not against someone doing what works for them.
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Yes, but how many women and girls around think about it like you do and put in the effort into their marriages as you do. Most think of the wedding as an accomplishment, which in turn leads to disinterest in working for what comes after that.
 
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