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I have to say Evinrude58 was dedicated to his marriage in that respect. I just can’t think of any man (or woman) I know in real life who would do that. This is why it’s just hard for me to comprehend. This is shocking to me, actually. So I guess I just know a lot of selfish people then (quite possible).


I do understand the concept of removing yourself from situations where temptation might be present because it’s something I need to practice myself, I just cannot fathom that a car would put somebody in that many tempting situations where you’d be in contact with any of these women long enough for anything to possibly happen. I guess these women were coming on pretty strong and not leaving him alone, hanging on him in bars, showing him their tatas, propositioning him for a bathroom rendezvous, idk.

I guess I still can’t quite get my head around the idea that people feel the need to remove all sorts of temptation from their lives. Certain things are obvious, like having too much to drink and kissing men at bars is definitely a danger zone for the typical person. But those people who feel the need to put up safeguards to avoid most interaction with the opposite sex, a bit extreme to me. I rather become the type of person who can be in all sorts of tempting situations and not bat an eye. Then I’d feel like the strength and power was within me and that I was truly trustworthy and not “trustworthy” simply because I’ve put all of these extreme safeguards in place. Isn’t it a bad sign when you have to remove the smallest interactions with the opposite sex?

What does that say about you if you can’t even trust yourself or your spouse to get a few winks and phone numbers thrown your way because chicks dig the car and not be tempted? I guess this is something that I actually think about frequently, but not specifically regarding a car…this is just a good example.
I had lots of numbers I threw away and only accepted out of courtesy.
I wore my ring. I trashed the card or number out at the gas pump or out if sight of the person that gave it.
Until one day a young girl in her late twenties that was gorgeous gave me hers, and I caught myself hesitating when I threw it away. I caught myself actually considering the idea in my head. It was up for sale a week later and I told my wife at the time that it got crappy gas mileage and I always worried about scratching it and I was tired of it. She never knew the real reason.

I wasn’t easily tempted. But that car brought more attention than I was accustomed to. Cici, you fail to consider that you’re gorgeous and have had that kind of attention all your life. You’re accustomed to it. I wasn’t.
 

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I had lots of numbers I threw away and only accepted out of courtesy.
I wore my ring. I trashed the card or number out at the gas pump or out if sight of the person that gave it.
Until one day a young girl in her late twenties that was gorgeous gave me hers, and I caught myself hesitating when I threw it away. I caught myself actually considering the idea in my head. It was up for sale a week later and I told my wife at the time that it got crappy gas mileage and I always worried about scratching it and I was tired of it. She never knew the real reason.

I wasn’t easily tempted. But that car brought more attention than I was accustomed to. Cici, you fail to consider that you’re gorgeous and have had that kind of attention all your life. You’re accustomed to it. I wasn’t.
I respect what you did, Evinrude. Good for you.
 

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Thx, I’m not perfect. I don’t think I’m immune to messing up. Matter of fact, I know that I’m capable of misdeeds and do what I can to avoid doing some of the worst ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #224 ·
You sold your car because it was getting you attention from women? You felt you were that weak willed that having a woman hit on you over your car was going to be that much of a temptation that you’d actually pursue something and it’d end your marriage?

People are different 🤷‍♀️. I like when women hit on my husband. I like his cool car and that other women want to sleep with him. That turns me on. If he’s that weak willed that some woman hitting on him over his car is going to tempt him to sleep with her or something there are bigger problems at hand.

Anyway, I agree that the combination of being turned on by the idea of kissing other guys, liking the male attention, and the alcohol could possibly lead to something more. You’re talking to somebody who loves male attention and the feeling it gives me. I also agree that a ton of sudden changes in combination could be a red flag. Has he said that she’s buying lingerie he never sees? Guarding her phone? Had unaccounted for times away from him? I haven’t seen that said but maybe I missed it. For some women, especially when they reach a certain time in their lives, a combination of purely appearance changes doesn’t automatically mean they are looking to open themselves up for business with other men. She’s a wife and mother and has reached a certain time in her life and good for her that she’s lost weight, is feeling sexier, and the waxing may just go along with her efforts to feel hotter, younger, and so on. I think it’s unfair to say any of that automatically means she’s looking to get with other men, even with the fantasies they’ve shared together. Now, there are cases where women do improve their appearances for themselves and/or their spouses initially and as a side effect they gain a lot of confidence, start getting hit on by men that never paid attention to them before, and it all goes to their heads and suddenly they have outgrown their husbands and need something more exciting. I don’t think many married women actually drastically change/improve their appearance with the intention of finding a new man, but sometimes it is a side effect. If you aren’t used to getting that sort of attention before and suddenly you are, I imagine it can be quite intoxicating even without the alcohol involved. Maybe you haven’t felt like a sexual being for a long time and now…
This is spot on, hit the nail right on the head. You couldn't have said this any better. No, she's not buying lingerie that I never see, she tells me to buy her lingerie but is often self conscience to dress in it due to "mommy tummy". She will put it on occasionally when she is feeling extra frisky though. No, she never guards her phone. I'll get into it every once in awhile to check her monthly cycle app when she's not looking just so that I know when I should "not blow up" inside of her. Our kids are in her phone all the time too. She doesn't have unaccounted time away from me either. When she tells me where she is going, I'll usually check our bank app every few days to make sure nobody has swiped my card at the gas pump and made a bunch of fraudulent purchases, and the purchases i see that she made exactly fit what she told me a day or a few days prior. Your post hits home because yes, she is facing 40 in just a matter of years and she is always working on herself and this is exactly why I wanted a female perspective. It has to be hard for a women to feel unattractive and old, especially when you see yourself as "mediocre" looking. Honestly, my wife is cute. She's not a supermodel, she doesnt exude sex appeal, she's just cute. To me however, I feel like i am married to the hottest woman to ever grace this planet. And I tell her often, but she knows that I am saying that because im her husband and I should be saying that, so the comment kinda rings empty. So I think this random attention that she has gotten really boosts her confidence, because now she knows that its not just the husband that finds her attractive, it's men that she actually finds attractive too that find her attractive, and that must definitely shoot her confidence level way up. Confidence that she didn't have before, so i know it must be intoxicating for her, and if not well managed, could veer into dangerous territory. The alarm bell rang when she said that she wanted to kiss other men. Mind you, my tongue was halfway up her hoo-ha with a vibrating toy rubbing against her poop chute and she was rubbing the little man in the boat at the same time when she said this, but that was alarming enough for me to stop and think, "hold up now, what kind of kissing are we talking about? Fantasy or are you seeing how much slack i will give on the marriage leash?" Admittedly, I want to kiss other women, and I want to have sex with other women, but our understanding is that i would never act on those impulses. There is a neighbor that my wife knows I fantasize about often, but I would never in my wildest dreams even dare to wave at this neighbor or say hello in passing, because I wouldnt want to give my wife the impression that I am inching closer to act on my fantasy. Im glad my wife is feeling confident and sexy and attractive and all of that. I just wanted to make sure that I shut down the idea of an open marriage with her, and that we had boundary discussions, all thanks to some of the feedback on this forum (HappilyMarried1, oldshirt, etc.). I felt that she was on the road to an open marriage conclusion in her head with the permission of implied messaging via our sex talk and now that she was getting male attention, she was all-in. She knows where I stand now even if she wasnt being up front of where she saw herself headed. I truly believe that she wants the marriage to hold up though, she pushes to make our family life better, at times even more so than I do. This doesn't mean that I am going to let my guard down, I will always be hyper-aware when things don't add up, but for now, I think I am in a much healthier place than I was 3 days ago. Much of the feedback on here has helped me realize too that I need to work on myself, like eating better and getting in better shape. I want to feel desirable too, and I know that if I present myself in a more desirable state and other women take notice, my wife will get turned on by that just as much as I do knowing that other men desire her. Earlier today, I went to get some breakfast and a moderately attractive woman complimented me on my sweatshirt. We exchanged some brief words, but that1 minute interaction did go a long way for me, because it made me think, "she could have not said anything and just ignored me like any other person would, but she was encouraged to say something" and that made me feel a little better about myself. Like, maybe I too still exude some sexuality like I had 20 years ago. Relationships are complicated, life is complicated, human nature is complicated. But i truly feel like I made progress, and much of this progress came by way of some of the commenters, so if it's worth anything, thank you to anyone that may have read this response to Cici.
 

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This is spot on, hit the nail right on the head. You couldn't have said this any better. No, she's not buying lingerie that I never see, she tells me to buy her lingerie but is often self conscience to dress in it due to "mommy tummy". She will put it on occasionally when she is feeling extra frisky though. No, she never guards her phone. I'll get into it every once in awhile to check her monthly cycle app when she's not looking just so that I know when I should "not blow up" inside of her. Our kids are in her phone all the time too. She doesn't have unaccounted time away from me either. When she tells me where she is going, I'll usually check our bank app every few days to make sure nobody has swiped my card at the gas pump and made a bunch of fraudulent purchases, and the purchases i see that she made exactly fit what she told me a day or a few days prior. Your post hits home because yes, she is facing 40 in just a matter of years and she is always working on herself and this is exactly why I wanted a female perspective. It has to be hard for a women to feel unattractive and old, especially when you see yourself as "mediocre" looking. Honestly, my wife is cute. She's not a supermodel, she doesnt exude sex appeal, she's just cute. To me however, I feel like i am married to the hottest woman to ever grace this planet. And I tell her often, but she knows that I am saying that because im her husband and I should be saying that, so the comment kinda rings empty. So I think this random attention that she has gotten really boosts her confidence, because now she knows that its not just the husband that finds her attractive, it's men that she actually finds attractive too that find her attractive, and that must definitely shoot her confidence level way up. Confidence that she didn't have before, so i know it must be intoxicating for her, and if not well managed, could veer into dangerous territory. The alarm bell rang when she said that she wanted to kiss other men. Mind you, my tongue was halfway up her hoo-ha with a vibrating toy rubbing against her poop chute and she was rubbing the little man in the boat at the same time when she said this, but that was alarming enough for me to stop and think, "hold up now, what kind of kissing are we talking about? Fantasy or are you seeing how much slack i will give on the marriage leash?" Admittedly, I want to kiss other women, and I want to have sex with other women, but our understanding is that i would never act on those impulses. There is a neighbor that my wife knows I fantasize about often, but I would never in my wildest dreams even dare to wave at this neighbor or say hello in passing, because I wouldnt want to give my wife the impression that I am inching closer to act on my fantasy. Im glad my wife is feeling confident and sexy and attractive and all of that. I just wanted to make sure that I shut down the idea of an open marriage with her, and that we had boundary discussions, all thanks to some of the feedback on this forum (HappilyMarried1, oldshirt, etc.). I felt that she was on the road to an open marriage conclusion in her head with the permission of implied messaging via our sex talk and now that she was getting male attention, she was all-in. She knows where I stand now even if she wasnt being up front of where she saw herself headed. I truly believe that she wants the marriage to hold up though, she pushes to make our family life better, at times even more so than I do. This doesn't mean that I am going to let my guard down, I will always be hyper-aware when things don't add up, but for now, I think I am in a much healthier place than I was 3 days ago. Much of the feedback on here has helped me realize too that I need to work on myself, like eating better and getting in better shape. I want to feel desirable too, and I know that if I present myself in a more desirable state and other women take notice, my wife will get turned on by that just as much as I do knowing that other men desire her. Earlier today, I went to get some breakfast and a moderately attractive woman complimented me on my sweatshirt. We exchanged some brief words, but that1 minute interaction did go a long way for me, because it made me think, "she could have not said anything and just ignored me like any other person would, but she was encouraged to say something" and that made me feel a little better about myself. Like, maybe I too still exude some sexuality like I had 20 years ago. Relationships are complicated, life is complicated, human nature is complicated. But i truly feel like I made progress, and much of this progress came by way of some of the commenters, so if it's worth anything, thank you to anyone that may have read this response to Cici.
It seems odd to me that you can't even say hello to a neighbour (which is totally innocuous), yet she dances with, drinks with and kisses other men.

It's dangerous territory when either spouses craves/needs attention from the opposite sex. Oh and btw Cici may be turned on by other women desiring her husband but many of us love and desire our spouses anyway and have no interest in what others think or do. It sounds as if your wife is more jealous of other women rather than being turned on by them giving you attention.

It's very sad that you loving and desiring her isn't enough for her or some other wives. Honestly I have never cared less what other men think of me, its my husbands thoughts and desires that matter. Him alone.
 

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Hi BurntEnds.

I am just going to come right out and say that I think it is abnormal and wrong for your wife to behave like she does. It is unnecessary for her to flirt with other men, accept free drinks etc to have a good time with her friends and, for me, this is unacceptable.

Is this really the behaviour we would expect from a married woman or man? No. She may think it’s a bit of fun but she is sending out mixed messages.

It obviously makes you uncomfortable and her behaviour is triggering a lack of trust.

Personally, I would say that she has choices - carry on acting like this and see how long it takes for your marriage to disintegrate - stop going out alone if she can’t behave like a mature, married woman - start accepting that her behaviour is inappropriate and making you uncomfortable so that she just grows up and stops flirting/kissing/taking free drinks - accept that you are going to go out behaving in the same way.

I will probably get lambasted as some control freak but actually I think it is the voice of reason.
 

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Hi BurntEnds.

I am just going to come right out and say that I think it is abnormal and wrong for your wife to behave like she does. It is unnecessary for her to flirt with other men, accept free drinks etc to have a good time with her friends and, for me, this is unacceptable.

Is this really the behaviour we would expect from a married woman or man? No. She may think it’s a bit of fun but she is sending out mixed messages.

It obviously makes you uncomfortable and her behaviour is triggering a lack of trust.

Personally, I would say that she has choices - carry on acting like this and see how long it takes for your marriage to disintegrate - stop going out alone if she can’t behave like a mature, married woman - start accepting that her behaviour is inappropriate and making you uncomfortable so that she just grows up and stops flirting/kissing/taking free drinks - accept that you are going to go out behaving in the same way.

I will probably get lambasted as some control freak but actually I think it is the voice of reason.
Its called having wise boundaries isn't it.
 

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That’s why I bought my first one, I wanted it since I was a kid. Then the one I had wasn’t exactly what I wanted after driving it for a few years so I sold it and ordered exactly what I wanted.

I really thought I would have that car until I was dead. My wife wanted a really expensive new car and I was like well she sold her sports car, so ok I will sell mine. She thought I was crazy but basically I didn’t need it anymore. Getting it was more fun than having it.
Always wanted a '58 'vet, from time was a teenager. Now that could afford one it just makes no sense. Would just be another money pit, and I have had enough of those for this life.
 

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I had lots of numbers I threw away and only accepted out of courtesy.
I wore my ring. I trashed the card or number out at the gas pump or out if sight of the person that gave it.
Until one day a young girl in her late twenties that was gorgeous gave me hers, and I caught myself hesitating when I threw it away. I caught myself actually considering the idea in my head. It was up for sale a week later and I told my wife at the time that it got crappy gas mileage and I always worried about scratching it and I was tired of it. She never knew the real reason.

I wasn’t easily tempted. But that car brought more attention than I was accustomed to. Cici, you fail to consider that you’re gorgeous and have had that kind of attention all your life. You’re accustomed to it. I wasn’t.
IMO, if car a person drives attracts telephone numbers, it isn't person driving the thing that is receiving the attention. Married acquaintance of mine bought a new 'vet when he turned 55. When I asked why ( he was a P/U with gun rack kinda guy ), he told me he got it to facilitate picking up women, 'cause his wife wasn't giving him any attention. I told him it wouldn't end well for him. At 57 he was divorced n the xW owning the 'vet (and about everything else he owned ) and she was picking up guys.
 

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IMO, if car a person drives attracts telephone numbers, it isn't person driving the thing that is receiving the attention. Married acquaintance of mine bought a new 'vet when he turned 55. When I asked why ( he was a P/U with gun rack kinda guy ), he told me he got it to facilitate picking up women, 'cause his wife wasn't giving him any attention. I told him it wouldn't end well for him. At 57 he was divorced n the xW owning the 'vet (and about everything else he owned ) and she was picking up guys.
Yes, o totally agree with you. However, being a total introvert, I think it gave a lot of people reason to strike up a conversation with me in spite of my Olympic golden RBF, and when I answered and talked a little and didn’t seem like the serial killer I probably look like..... they were interested in more than the car. Or not.
It could be that the muscle car exuded the idea that I had money I don’t have.... And we all know that is the honey that attracts a lot of flies. I really enjoyed the car. I had a lot of people that would start conversations about it, and I enjoyed driving it. Unlike a lot of old cars, it had a smooth ride and wasn’t all that noisy. It was a comfortable car. I wish I’d have kept it and had I known the future, I’d still own it. I have the knowledge now to put an LS engine and 4l80 transmission in it, and get better fuel mileage and cruise at a lot lower rpm than the power glide gave.
I was happy with my wife, and the car and attention wasn’t important at all to me.
 

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@BurntEnds

You had a lot of good info in your last post and a lot to digest. I will address some of the specific things you mentioned but first I want to address your lead-off question - Is your wife thinking about cheating?

What we need to do first here is kind of define what cheating is because the lines between cheating and having various degrees of sexual interaction, sexual stimulation and sexual contact with other people are getting blurry here (hence why I consider this primarily a boundary issue).

Cheating is usually not really about sexual desire or hornyness etc... it's primary motivation is usually selfishness, impulsiveness, entitlement and lack of respect and esteem for one's partner.

Is your wife selfish and entitled?? Do rules and boundaries and restrictions apply to other people but not to her?

Does she have poor impulse control? does she take some kind of irresponsible or inappropriate action 0.5 seconds after the idea pops in her head?

Does she act without thinking of the possible repercussions or consequences of her actions?

Does she lack respect, esteem and compasison for you? Does she think of you as an insignificant being that may be a good errand boy but has no respect or admiration for you as a man?

Does she lack sexual attraction for and desire for you as a man?

Does she feel disconnected and ignored/neglected by you?

Does she feel emotionally and sexually denied by you?


If you are answering yes to all of those things, the risks of her stepping out at some point are extremely high whether you have sexy pillow talk and fantasy talk or not because cheating is usually a matter of character and boundaries impulse control rather than hornyness and desire.

If you've answered no to all of those, then the chances of her going out and having an actual affair are quite low despite your fantasy talk.

Now none of us are perfect so she likely does have at least a few degrees of some of those traits.... so again it comes back to boundaries, impulse control and being aware of the ramifications and consequences of one's behavior.

All humans are sexual beings and have wild and wooly fantasies and desires. All humans appreciate validation and attention from the opposite sex (or same sex if that is how they roll) Some couples even enjoy mutually consensual sexual activites with other people as part of their marital dynamic.

But the actual act of cheating which is nonconsensual sexual contact without the foreknowledge and consent of one's partner is a matter of character, disrespect and entitlement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #232 ·
These words are actually quite helpful and would have benefited my state of mind greatly early in the week. Here are answers to your little quiz.....

Is your wife selfish and entitled??
Not at all. She is always sacrificing things for others and putting others first.

Do rules and boundaries and restrictions apply to other people but not to her?
No. There are little things, like we will use curse words every now and then but we tell the kids to never say ugly words. But I see that as small potatoes. Actual rules and restrictions are always respected, be they traffic laws, work rules, commitments to our church, etc.

Does she have poor impulse control? does she take some kind of irresponsible or inappropriate action 0.5 seconds after the idea pops in her head?
She is well disciplined, and really her weakness is clothes purchases. Sometimes she will tell me, "let's not go to Target, let's go to wal mart instead because I can't be trusted at Target". But if she wants a tattoo, she will dwell on it for many years before finally getting it. If she wants a pricey item from Amazon, it usually sits in her basket for weeks and weeks before finally deciding on it or not.

Does she act without thinking of the possible repercussions or consequences of her actions?
Never. She is always looking at the domino effect of her actions. She is a meticulous planner and schedules every little event that she has coming up.

Does she lack respect, esteem and compasison for you?
Definitely not. If she says something that might cause offence, she is apologetic. She is encouraging when I shed a few pounds myself. I could go on and on.

Does she think of you as an insignificant being that may be a good errand boy but has no respect or admiration for you as a man?
Definitely not. See the previous answer.

Does she lack sexual attraction for and desire for you as a man?
I have to confidently say no here. When we met, we had sex like bunnies. Fast forward to now and we still have sex like bunnies.

Does she feel disconnected and ignored/neglected by you?
No. We always hug, snuggle, cuddle, tell each other how much we love each other, hold hands, I could go on and on.

Does she feel emotionally and sexually denied by you?
Never. See answer to the previous question. Sometimes I am just too exhausted from the night before and I'm not feeling it but we have a go again the following night. And sometimes she is too exhausted from the night before or because of a crummy day and she is not feeling it but we have a go again the next day.

I appreciate your insight, it really is helpful. Understand that when she said that she wants to kiss other men, I instantly thought she was planning to up and leave me high and dry or ask me permission to skank around town while I was at home playing nanny. I know my worst thoughts got the best of me but we have been much more communicative and we are in a much better place now that we cleared the air. She was supposed to go to music bingo with the gals last night. Most of the bailed except for 1 or 2. She opted to cancel too since most of the hens called it quits. If she was really cheating or looking to cheat, she could have easily said that the plan was still on and went to do who knows what. But again, she is an honest woman. A few hours later, another friend invited her over to her house to meet some other gals from work. She was out from 8-11 and called on her way home, "I was a good girl, I only had 2 drinks tonight!" I'm not worried about cheating, I'm worried about drinking too much.
 

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#1: Honestly, my wife is cute. She's not a supermodel, she doesnt exude sex appeal, she's just cute. To me however, I feel like i am married to the hottest woman to ever grace this planet. And I tell her often, but she knows that I am saying that because im her husband and I should be saying that, so the comment kinda rings empty. So I think this random attention that she has gotten really boosts her confidence, because now she knows that its not just the husband that finds her attractive, it's men that she actually finds attractive too that find her attractive, and that must definitely shoot her confidence level way up.

#2: Confidence that she didn't have before, so i know it must be intoxicating for her, and if not well managed, could veer into dangerous territory.



#3: The alarm bell rang when she said that she wanted to kiss other men. Mind you, my tongue was halfway up her hoo-ha with a vibrating toy rubbing against her poop chute and she was rubbing the little man in the boat

#4: at the same time when she said this, but that was alarming enough for me to stop and think, "hold up now, what kind of kissing are we talking about? Fantasy or are you seeing how much slack i will give on the marriage leash?"


#5: Admittedly, I want to kiss other women, and I want to have sex with other women, but our understanding is that i would never act on those impulses.

#6: Im glad my wife is feeling confident and sexy and attractive and all of that. I just wanted to make sure that I shut down the idea of an open marriage with her, and that we had boundary discussions, all thanks to some of the feedback on this forum (HappilyMarried1, oldshirt, etc.). I felt that she was on the road to an open marriage conclusion in her head with the permission of implied messaging via our sex talk and now that she was getting male attention, she was all-in. She knows where I stand now even if she wasnt being up front of where she saw herself headed.

#7: Much of the feedback on here has helped me realize too that I need to work on myself, like eating better and getting in better shape. I want to feel desirable too, and I know that if I present myself in a more desirable state and other women take notice, my wife will get turned on by that just as much as I do knowing that other men desire her.
Lots of info here and a few things I want to comment on specifically.


#1: You're right here, it's just not the same coming from your spouse. You need to be her biggest fan, but no matter how much you appreciate her, it's just not the same and what comes from other men. It's just the nature of the beast, we all want some kind of validation that if our current partner gets eaten by a saber tooth tiger, we will be able to find another.

#2: You hit the nail right on the head 100% on this one. This is where everyone is talking about playing with fire and having the fire truck parked in the driveway. It's ok to feel the warm glow from the campfire of validation..... but it's always a few inches and a wind gust and spark away from setting off a raging wildfire out of control. It's all about the boundaries and expectations of conduct.

#3: this is exactly what I was talking about back on page #1. You need to be having these discussions on boundaries and expectations when you are stone cold sober during the light of the day when there are no horny hormones raging through your veins. There needs to be solid division between what goes on between the sheets of the marital bed between a married couple and what goes on in the real world outside.

Others here may disagree but I think it is beneficial and positive for a couple to engage in a shared fantasy and be able to openly express their fantasies and desires with each other. Not all of those fantasies and desires are going to involve just the two of them. It's simply how we're wired as creatures of the earth.

Many here will say that a couple should smack down those fantasies and suppress them and disallow them from ever being discussed or acknowledged. I think that is detrimental more often than not.

I think it is healthier and more condusive to a marital sex life to acknowledge and even share in those fantasies and desires and get them out on the table and then establish BOUNDARIES and expectations of how those fantasies and desires will be addressed.

You can't make those desires go away by saying you can't discuss them. It's better to acknowledge them and address them and mutually come up with a plan on how to deal with them than to try to deny them.

#4: Realise that you are going to limits and comfort zones on what you are willing to discuss and where you are willing to let your mind go. You are going to have triggers as well. It's ok to have these fantasy talks and if discussing it openly gets your motor running and adding to the excitement, then great. But if something is triggering you and turning you OFF, then that needs to be addressed because it is going counter to what you are trying to accomplish with the fantasy talk in the first place. This is all a journey and not a destination and there will be bumps in the road.

And with establishing clear and firm boundaries, that can even help you feel more comfortable to where you are able to delve deeper into your fantasies and desires and what was uncomfortable for you before, is now a turn on.

#5: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You're just as human and just as much of a sexual being as she is. You have your fantasies and desires as well. And again it will come back to establishing boundaries and expects on her part as well. When she's all horned up and randy, it may turn her on to picture you laying the lumber to room full of chicks as well....... or it may not. She needs to be an active participant in setting guidelines and boundaries as well.

But as a man, you have fantasies and desires of different women as well. As a couple you can do as many do and try to deny that and suppress it and pretend it isn't there. Or you can be adults working collaboratively as a team and acknowledge those instinctual desires and find a mutually agreeable means of dealing with them.

#6. I think you are starting to see the light here. I think you're getting it. Again this is a journey that never ends. It's a process and once you learn and can apply the process, then you can deal with these things as they arise. I think the key elements are open communication, mutual respect and compassion and the being able to collaboratively come up with expectations and boundaries.

There will be those here that say that that was established with the marital vows of foresaking all others when at your wedding. But the truth is we go through many changes and transitions and evolutions as we go through our lives. The environment and playing fields change and we change as people as time goes on. To me the healthy couple is the couple that can navigate together and make course corrections and deal with the changing conditions as a process.

#7: Again, I think you are starting to catch on. Look, hypergamy is what it is. As a creature of the earth she is going to be drawn to her best available option at any given time. If you want to remain the object of her desire and want her to be connected to you for the long term, you're going to have to be her best available option at all times. The Game never ends. The best way to keep your wife from cheating is to be the man that she would cheat WITH. You be the sexy stud that she would go out into the parking lot with or meet at the No Tell Motel on her way home from work.

It sounds like you already have an active and good sex life. That is good. A lot of the guys that come here because their wife has been hitting the clubs and coming home in the wee hours of the morning haven't had sex themselves in many months on end or even in years. They've turned into beta couch potatoes, gotten fat and lazy and the primal part of their wife's brain has started looking for the next suitable mate that can fight off the saber tooth tiger and bring home the meat (in more ways than one LOL)

Your wife has upped her Girl Game and is starting to be noticed and approached by other men. You're going to have to up YOUR GAME if you want to continue to be her best option.

That may not be a comfortable concept for many people. But it's a reality. She has a vagina so she has options. It's on you to be her best option if you want to remain with her and you want to be the one who's penis she is sucking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #234 ·
Lots of info here and a few things I want to comment on specifically.


#1: You're right here, it's just not the same coming from your spouse. You need to be her biggest fan, but no matter how much you appreciate her, it's just not the same and what comes from other men. It's just the nature of the beast, we all want some kind of validation that if our current partner gets eaten by a saber tooth tiger, we will be able to find another.

#2: You hit the nail right on the head 100% on this one. This is where everyone is talking about playing with fire and having the fire truck parked in the driveway. It's ok to feel the warm glow from the campfire of validation..... but it's always a few inches and a wind gust and spark away from setting off a raging wildfire out of control. It's all about the boundaries and expectations of conduct.

#3: this is exactly what I was talking about back on page #1. You need to be having these discussions on boundaries and expectations when you are stone cold sober during the light of the day when there are no horny hormones raging through your veins. There needs to be solid division between what goes on between the sheets of the marital bed between a married couple and what goes on in the real world outside.

Others here may disagree but I think it is beneficial and positive for a couple to engage in a shared fantasy and be able to openly express their fantasies and desires with each other. Not all of those fantasies and desires are going to involve just the two of them. It's simply how we're wired as creatures of the earth.

Many here will say that a couple should smack down those fantasies and suppress them and disallow them from ever being discussed or acknowledged. I think that is detrimental more often than not.

I think it is healthier and more condusive to a marital sex life to acknowledge and even share in those fantasies and desires and get them out on the table and then establish BOUNDARIES and expectations of how those fantasies and desires will be addressed.

You can't make those desires go away by saying you can't discuss them. It's better to acknowledge them and address them and mutually come up with a plan on how to deal with them than to try to deny them.

#4: Realise that you are going to limits and comfort zones on what you are willing to discuss and where you are willing to let your mind go. You are going to have triggers as well. It's ok to have these fantasy talks and if discussing it openly gets your motor running and adding to the excitement, then great. But if something is triggering you and turning you OFF, then that needs to be addressed because it is going counter to what you are trying to accomplish with the fantasy talk in the first place. This is all a journey and not a destination and there will be bumps in the road.

And with establishing clear and firm boundaries, that can even help you feel more comfortable to where you are able to delve deeper into your fantasies and desires and what was uncomfortable for you before, is now a turn on.

#5: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. You're just as human and just as much of a sexual being as she is. You have your fantasies and desires as well. And again it will come back to establishing boundaries and expects on her part as well. When she's all horned up and randy, it may turn her on to picture you laying the lumber to room full of chicks as well....... or it may not. She needs to be an active participant in setting guidelines and boundaries as well.

But as a man, you have fantasies and desires of different women as well. As a couple you can do as many do and try to deny that and suppress it and pretend it isn't there. Or you can be adults working collaboratively as a team and acknowledge those instinctual desires and find a mutually agreeable means of dealing with them.

#6. I think you are starting to see the light here. I think you're getting it. Again this is a journey that never ends. It's a process and once you learn and can apply the process, then you can deal with these things as they arise. I think the key elements are open communication, mutual respect and compassion and the being able to collaboratively come up with expectations and boundaries.

There will be those here that say that that was established with the marital vows of foresaking all others when at your wedding. But the truth is we go through many changes and transitions and evolutions as we go through our lives. The environment and playing fields change and we change as people as time goes on. To me the healthy couple is the couple that can navigate together and make course corrections and deal with the changing conditions as a process.

#7: Again, I think you are starting to catch on. Look, hypergamy is what it is. As a creature of the earth she is going to be drawn to her best available option at any given time. If you want to remain the object of her desire and want her to be connected to you for the long term, you're going to have to be her best available option at all times. The Game never ends. The best way to keep your wife from cheating is to be the man that she would cheat WITH. You be the sexy stud that she would go out into the parking lot with or meet at the No Tell Motel on her way home from work.

It sounds like you already have an active and good sex life. That is good. A lot of the guys that come here because their wife has been hitting the clubs and coming home in the wee hours of the morning haven't had sex themselves in many months on end or even in years. They've turned into beta couch potatoes, gotten fat and lazy and the primal part of their wife's brain has started looking for the next suitable mate that can fight off the saber tooth tiger and bring home the meat (in more ways than one LOL)

Your wife has upped her Girl Game and is starting to be noticed and approached by other men. You're going to have to up YOUR GAME if you want to continue to be her best option.

That may not be a comfortable concept for many people. But it's a reality. She has a vagina so she has options. It's on you to be her best option if you want to remain with her and you want to be the one who's penis she is sucking.
More helpful and reassuring content here oldshirt. Much appreciated. As you know, I don't have any friends to talk these things over with, so both you and happilymarried1 have given valuable input. I went to the gym this morning with her and I feel great. I truly feel like I'm on a much needed "brand redevelopment" for myself too, and she is excited that I am going to be making smart diet and exercise choices. I'm not a fat lazy slob, I am 5'10" and just out of shape (love handles, man boobs, flabby arms) but I'm going to work on myself for myself and I believe the positive results will benefit her, me and our marriage. If I've taken anything away here, it's that I can't get complacent.
 

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Does she act without thinking of the possible repercussions or consequences of her actions?
Never. She is always looking at the domino effect of her actions. She is a meticulous planner and schedules every little event that she has coming up.

Does she lack respect, esteem and compasison for you?
Definitely not. If she says something that might cause offence, she is apologetic. She is encouraging when I shed a few pounds myself. I could go on and on.
I am sorry but I may need some clarification here based on how you answered these two questions. I would think if your answers here is correct then I don't see how she would go out and let men buy her drinks, dance with them, and kiss them. If how you answered these questions was correct she would have politely declined the drinks and dances and would have had no need to kiss a guy for those and would have come home and said the following: "Honey I had some men ask me to dance and to buy me some dirnks, but I turned them down" Then she would have said I felt flattered and nothing else would you be okay with this and nothing else the next time I go out and it happens again. I did not want to do anything or cross any lines, do something you are not comfortable with until I discussed it with you. Just my opinion.
 

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If I've taken anything away here, it's that I can't get complacent.
Aahhhhh very good Grasshopper, you are learning (reference to 1970s tv show Kung Fu)

Complacency kills.

The trouble a lot of people run into is they think the wedding and the vows and the rings on the finger is the final buzzer of the game. They think they have won and have stood on the podium and got the medal around their neck while the national anthem plays, and from there they don't have to worry anymore because their partner will only desire them and will continue to desire and be devoted to them no matter what and that no one else will try to get into their spouse's knickers because they are married and wearing a wedding ring. This is the ideology of countless married couples across the land.

All of it is a fallacy however.

The reality is the game is not over and there is no victory lap. The game of life has just begun. .....and that game never ends.

Attraction and desire are fickle and funny things. A wedding ceremony and vows do not mean your partner will be attracted to you or desire you forever. If you get fat and lazy or neglectful of their wants and needs or you become mean and nasty or become a drunk or a druggie etc, they will not be any more attracted to you than some random person on the street.

By the same token, the wedding ceremony, vows and ring does not mean that their sexuality shuts down or that they no longer have any appreciation or attractions for other people. We are are all still creatures of the earth regardless if we are married or not.

And your marriage absolutely does not keep other people away or shuts down other people's attraction or desires. People will always be attracted and desire attractive and desirable people. A wedding ring does not shut down other people's desires and nor does it mean they will always follow social rules of fair play.

Some people, both men and women, will even intentionally target married people for a variety of reasons. Married people with poor boundaries or poor impulse control, or who have neglectful or undesirable partners for whatever reason are actually a lot easier and much less cost to get into bed than single people and ask a heck of a lot less than single people.

fantasy pillow talk is OK with proper boundaries and guidelines. Complacency, neglect and boredom are not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #237 ·
I am sorry but I may need some clarification here based on how you answered these two questions. I would think if your answers here is correct then I don't see how she would go out and let men buy her drinks, dance with them, and kiss them. If how you answered these questions was correct she would have politely declined the drinks and dances and would have had no need to kiss a guy for those and would have come home and said the following: "Honey I had some men ask me to dance and to buy me some dirnks, but I turned them down" Then she would have said I felt flattered and nothing else would you be okay with this and nothing else the next time I go out and it happens again. I did not want to do anything or cross any lines, do something you are not comfortable with until I discussed it with you. Just my opinion.
Valid points, which is when this last occurred was when she had "one too many" those 2 weeks ago. The most meticulous planner is no longer such a great planner when they are past the point of self control under the influence of alcohol. But as I said in the beginning phases of this thread, I'd been giving her subconscious cues that her going that far was a-okay in my book, which thanks to our "comfort/discomfort" conversations, she understands my positions now. During getting hot and heavy, I would literally tell her things like, "sometimes I imagine you getting home late and having your brains screwed out by another man at his place". I think that would certainly leave any woman thinking "I think he's okay with me banging other guys". We had never visited these discussions in "the light of day" until this week. Do I think her bringing these things up during that night of concern was her planning things in her head? Absolutely. The thing is she never knew my clear boundaries because we never had those conversations. She knows now that I'm okay with her feelings attractive and good about herself while out with the gals, but that I'm totally not open with her actually getting her brains banged out at another man's place. I feel like fantasy and reality was VERY blurred in our relationship and this week has helped to clear much of it up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #238 ·
Aahhhhh very good Grasshopper, you are learning (reference to 1970s tv show Kung Fu)

Complacency kills.

The trouble a lot of people run into is they think the wedding and the vows and the rings on the finger is the final buzzer of the game. They think they have won and have stood on the podium and got the medal around their neck while the national anthem plays, and from there they don't have to worry anymore because their partner will only desire them and will continue to desire and be devoted to them no matter what and that no one else will try to get into their spouse's knickers because they are married and wearing a wedding ring. This is the ideology of countless married couples across the land.

All of it is a fallacy however.

The reality is the game is not over and there is no victory lap. The game of life has just begun. .....and that game never ends.

Attraction and desire are fickle and funny things. A wedding ceremony and vows do not mean your partner will be attracted to you or desire you forever. If you get fat and lazy or neglectful of their wants and needs or you become mean and nasty or become a drunk or a druggie etc, they will not be any more attracted to you than some random person on the street.

By the same token, the wedding ceremony, vows and ring does not mean that their sexuality shuts down or that they no longer have any appreciation or attractions for other people. We are are all still creatures of the earth regardless if we are married or not.

And your marriage absolutely does not keep other people away or shuts down other people's attraction or desires. People will always be attracted and desire attractive and desirable people. A wedding ring does not shut down other people's desires and nor does it mean they will always follow social rules of fair play.

Some people, both men and women, will even intentionally target married people for a variety of reasons. Married people with poor boundaries or poor impulse control, or who have neglectful or undesirable partners for whatever reason are actually a lot easier and much less cost to get into bed than single people and ask a heck of a lot less than single people.

fantasy pillow talk is OK with proper boundaries and guidelines. Complacency, neglect and boredom are not.
Always insightful oldshirt. I really wish I knew you in real life and had you around to knock back a few beers and take in marriage advice, maybe even play a round of "snatch the pebble from my hand" with you. My marriage is nowhere close to being "safe" again, marriage never is. But your guidance has given me the right tools and the right approaches that I can use in my marriage.
 

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but that I'm totally not open with her actually getting her brains banged out at another man's place.
I know you are not okay with that but she now I hope you made clear that you are not ok with her kissing another guy in any form or fashion or grinding on some guy either.

Hey by the way @BurntEnds I think you mentioned a few days ago that she was going out with the girls last night. If so how did that go?
 

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Discussion Starter · #240 ·
I know you are not okay with that but she now I hope you made clear that you are not ok with her kissing another guy in any form or fashion or grinding on some guy either.

Hey by the way @BurntEnds I think you mentioned a few days ago that she was going out with the girls last night. If so how did that go?
Happy you asked. She had a "music bingo" night planned at the same bar they go to. It was supposed to be at 7, and she was gonna go with the whole crew. Well through the day, many flaked out one by one to the point that if she still went, it would just be like her and 1 or 2 others. So she cancelled too, and I was like "oh, dang, sorry about that" but secretly I was relieved given the stressful week I've had. She was a little bummed but she got over it easily. Honestly, if "searching for male attention" rather than "enjoying getting the male attention" was in her playbook, she could have easily just still went anyways and took it from there. This is comforting because it let's me know that she wanted to be with "the whole gang" as her primary motivation. We then went out for dinner as a family, when one of her other friends texted if she wanted to go over to her house with some other co workers for girl time. I was fine with that, and actually much better prefer that to a bar scene. So she went her way after dinner and was out from 8-11, and even called me on her drive home saying "hey, just wanted to let you know that I was a good girl and only had 2 drinks!" Tonight, we have a sitter and we are going to watch the new 007 film. Last night during sex, she introduced the idea of maybe having sex in the car while we are out, and I won't lie, I was open to it. I took that as her trying to open up more healthier adventures in our REAL LIFE sexuality that doesn't involve other people. I feel like she feels that we kinda need to give the "talking dirty about other people" a rest for now. We made love the past 2 nights, but last night, she wanted a good pounding, hard and fast and so did I so we had a good go at it. She didn't want toys or oral, she just wanted flesh and blood ding dong and afterwards she said, "maybe sex in the car wouldn't be as comfortable as what we can do on this bed". Not to give too much detail but I think it's relevant given that we still have an active sex life and both still turn each other on like crazy.
 
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