[Cici1990]

Welcome to TAM @BurntEnds I think based on your OP you know deep down where this is heading. I agree with what @Diana7 said in post #3 that this should not be going on and that the kiss I agree with her has already happened and she was just feeling you out. I hope that is all that has happened, but I am afraid that maybe more has happened. I hope I am wrong here is what I think based on what you have said she told you. She has progressed to dancing and drinks with a guy and then they sit together and kiss as she said open mouth and he gets a little handsy and she really likes it but she stops it before it goes any further. That's why she is coming home and jumping your bones, she is as others said feeling you out to how you feel about things and she is considering going further.

If she starts going out more often and not wanting to jump your bones when she comes in then you really need to worry. A couple of questions then a suggestion for you. These girlfriends she goes out with are they married? Is one a designated driver? Has the frequency of these GNO becoming more often or staying out longer. Do you all share each others cell phones or if she has started keeping her phone with her more using it more that could already be a red flag. Now for a few suggestions one if the phone thing is as I said above I would suggest checking it or your bill to see if their are any numbers you do not know. Next, if where they go is a large and crowed bar/club hire a sitter and after about 30 minutes to an hour go into to the club lay low and observe for yourself if spotted you could always say you were fulfilling a little of your own fantasy. I personally don't recommend the following to the club(just a suggestion).

Finally, here is what I would actually do if I was in your shoes. I would sit her down after kids are asleep and say after your discussion about feelings of real/fantasy you think this is not good. First I would ask her point blank if she has already kissed another guy (on the lips) more than once or more than one guy? I would think after being together for 15+ years you would know if she is telling you the truth. Then I would say that giving this more thought (even if she says she has not kissed or done anything with anyone and you believe her) this is not a good thing for your marriage and your family. That it was your understanding that on these GNO she was just going out with her girlfriends and having some drinks, them dancing together, and doing some karaoke. It now seems to be progressing to areas you are not comfortable with for you or your marriage. I would use the example of how she came home two weeks ago and say what if you get a more drunk than then and a good looking guy comes onto you hard. I would say that you are a guy and a guy in a bar/club who you let buy you drinks and dance with and even kiss is going to want and expect more than that. I would also say is the reason you ask me about how I felt about how far flirting should be allowed to go and what I thought was it because you a) want to do things with other men b) already have done some things with guys and due to you feeling guilty wanted to see how I felt about things or wanted to try and tell me a little of what has happened to see how I would react. You seriously need to sit her down before she plans another one and get this out or I am afraid you will be on here in a few months telling us she had a ONS with a guy from a bar she had to much to drink and was flirting and things just went to far and you will be crushed so you need to put a stop to this now. Let her know how you feel and if she really loves and cares about your marriage and family she will understand and agree. If she does not agree and tries to gaslight you and say you are being controlling and jealous then she probably has already been involved and wants to continue. I would as kind of a compromise suggest that you can hire a sitter and go to a club just you two and share it together. Best of luck! Please don't be a one post and done let us know how things are going. It really sounds like you have a good marriage and family, but I really feel you need to step up here be firm and tell her how you feel and get this stopped before it goes to far, because trust me it will continue to progress if you allow it.

As a cheater myself, and one with fantasies of screwing other men while my husband watched (and actually did it) and who justified flirting with other men, getting free drinks from other men, etc….I think the above response is the best one you’ve received yet in this thread and you should follow this advice.

 

[Cici1990]

As a woman on TAM and as a cheater and attention wh*re, I still only speak for myself here when I say that not all women are turned on by men grinding on them on the dance floor and whispering perverted things in their ears - whether that man is their husband or some hot guy in a club. I’d be so grossed out if my husband or any man did that to me because I just finding grinding sort of embarrassing and cringeworthy. It doesn’t get me going at all. So don’t generalize all women here, ok?

I do know that many women are turned on by that stuff though. It certainly sounds like it’s the stuff that gets OP’s wife going, so it’s a relevant point here. I agree that OP should try going out and doing these things with his wife instead of sitting at home in the sidelines. If you don’t know how then learn how.

I’ve actually always been turned on by hot dads. Even as a teenager I always had crushes on hot dads that I knew. So, I’d probably screw the hot dad who is babysitting his kid over the hot guy grinding at the club. Actually, when I did have an affair it was with a hot dad, not some guy I met at the club. Point is, if somebody doesn’t have strong boundaries and they fall into a situation where somebody who floats their boat and rings their bells presents themselves and is willing, eventually there’s a good chance that something will happen. In the case of OP’s wife, it probably would be with one of the hot guys at the club that she’s grinding on and kissing. I just hate when people want to generalize that all women want the kind of macho guy at the club rubbing his junk on her because it’s not what every single one of us into.

 

[Cici1990]

I agree, my wife has always been into nerdy, quiet types like myself. She doesn't go for that "toxic masculinity" stereotype

Or does she?

Based on what you’ve said here, it sounds like she is really getting excited by these men. Maybe her tastes have changed and she hasn’t made you clearly aware. I wouldn’t be as concerned by it if she wasn’t getting so much sexual excitement out if it and there wasn’t the alcohol involved. I don’t think anyone here knows enough to declare in absolutes that she is definitely going to cheat (as in any sort of sex) or that she already has. I don’t get the impression that she is scheming to find somebody else to sleep with. Yes, even the waxing of her cha cha doesn’t automatically mean she’s preparing herself for new men. I do feel that it could be a situation where there aren’t the firmest of boundaries, she’s really loving the attention she’s getting, and with enough alcohol and the right guy doing and saying the right things something could eventually happen that maybe she didn’t intend ahead of time but oops it happens anyway.

 

[Cici1990]

Hi BurntEnds,
Female, non-cheating, formerly married woman here. Even when I was single in my clubbing days, I did not flirt/dance with or accept drinks/gifts from a man I was not interested in, period. Acceptance indicates interest and opens lines of communications for more.

Once married, I made sure men knew I was married if they were too friendly. Frankly, I'm amazed you're cool with your wife spending GNO in a club drinking and dancing with other men. Even if no sex happens, do you like the idea of your wife making a guy cum in his pants on the dance floor?

Btw, I grew up in a very sexually free, yet conservative culture. I've done my share of grinding up on lots of strange dudes at the club, however, I'm not a drinker, so I had a good view of the stupid **** people do under the influence "for a laugh". People forget their commitments, bf/gf, kid at home, poof.


Exactly! This whole situation brings to mind the saying, "You can't make a ho into a housewife". Attention-ho, or regular ho.


Burnt, your latest post sounds encouraging, but time to man up, bro. Find your balls man, and ask them to relocate GNO. It's just a matter of time before some **** goes down when you have a combination of waxed muffin and relaxed boundaries due to alcohol and sexually charged atmosphere.

I get everything you’re saying except…what grown men are confident enough to be grinding up against a woman they just met in a club yet pathetic enough that they’re going to be cumming in their pants over it? I hope that part was exaggerated for effect. Are men who aren’t being intentional creeps out there cumming in their pants on the dance floors of America? She’s not dancing with virginal 15 year old boys. It sounds like it could be a fun game though. How many men can a married woman make cum in their pants in a single night. They could be crazy though so better take a weapon for protection.

 

[Cici1990]

I think most gentlemen would take it to the bathroom stall.

But still…that turned on by dancing with a woman that they have to excuse themselves to the bathroom to rub one out? I’m going to ask some of my clubbing friends about this one. I mean my husband has had boners in public and never had to excuse himself to rub one out. He can at least wait until he gets home.

 

[Cici1990]

No I meant take the nice young lady back to the bathroom stall.

Oh well that makes more sense.

I don’t really know anyone that goes out and dances at clubs anymore. Like, nobody I know my age that I associate with is into that. Bars yes, but bars where dancing takes place or dance clubs, no.

 

[Cici1990]

I am getting the impression that this goes beyond naivette or lack of understanding.

And I think it goes beyond not wanting to do anything about it.

I get the feeling he thinks it is somehow ‘below’ him to be concerned with her activities and that he is somehow superior to the common man to worry about such primal concerns.

Even if actual arrogance is not a factor, there are people that see themselves as more enlightened and more woke than to be concerned with such indignities as sexual attractions for other people or the nasty scandals of the loins.

There are people that feel they are the superior man or the superior woman as such that they can allow their spouse to live as a single person on the market but that they won’t be negatively effected.

I’m getting the feeling the OP thinks he is being the better man by giving her this opportunity to get her jollies with other men and that he is above any kind of petty jealousies or insecurities.

Some of these guys also think their wives are too pure and too virtuous than to have any karnal desires of the flesh.

I’ve known some guys like this. They have all gotten humbled at some point when they realize they are not more enlightened and that their wives are not above karnal desires of the flesh.

Uh huh. You’ve described my husband here.

 

[Cici1990]

Don't forget the most obvious culprits.......the band. (if it's a place with live music). It's usually the drummer that goes for the bigger chicks.

Omg.

 

[Cici1990]

Yeah, and I trust that my wife has that same ingrained honor system but I think what makes us different than you and your wife is that we have a long history of fantasy talk involving strangers (wife swapping, swinging, threesomes, gang bangs, etc.). All that unhealthy talk could have subconsciously given her the impression that i want her to act on her fantasies and when drunk enough, that's all it takes to light the fuse. Hence our talk about boundaries, our agreement to cut out the dirty talk and we even talked about "having one too many" drinks when out with the gals.

I don’t think your talks about that stuff is going to be what tips her over the edge in her drunken state. I don’t think she’s going to subconsciously think you’re ok with her doing any of that, whether she’s drunk or not. I think if she’s flirting with other men, dancing with them, kissing them in the cheek, and has one too many drinks it could possibly progress to a little more since her inhibitions will be lower, she’ll be feeling good from the attention and flirting which sort of feeds into itself and you want more more more and it goes from flirting to some playful touches, to a kiss, giggle, more touching, out the door we go. If that happens, which I’m not so sure it will but could in many situations like this, it won’t be because of the dirty talk putting thoughts in her mind. In those moments she’s probably not even thinking about her husband and their dirty talk. She’s just feeling pretty light and good and now empowered by the male attention and to be honest in that situation if a woman is going to cheat she’ll most likely do it regardless of whether she and her husband have talked about gang bangs or not.

In saying all of that, I’m not on the side of “omg she waxed her cha cha, that’s a sure fire sign she’s planning to get with another guy.”

I just think the husband and wife dirty talk behind closed doors isn’t going to be the deciding factor on whether she kisses, blows, or does something else with a guy at the bar.

 

[Cici1990]

Sudden changes in appearance like waxing, buying lingerie the husband has never seen,
Wearing sexier clothes, unaccounted for time, phone guarding..... red flags.

but op has explained away the waxing.
He’s explained away a lot.

but what he can’t seem to explain away is the fact that she wants to kiss other men, and that she is going out clubbing and enjoying make attention.

when I was married, I sold a ‘68 chevelle that I took a year restoring myself in my spare time.... because it was getting me attention from women, ie pgone numbers and requests...
Because I didn’t want to put myself in a tempting situation. This lady is pursuing it.

You sold your car because it was getting you attention from women? You felt you were that weak willed that having a woman hit on you over your car was going to be that much of a temptation that you’d actually pursue something and it’d end your marriage?

People are different 🤷‍♀️. I like when women hit on my husband. I like his cool car and that other women want to sleep with him. That turns me on. If he’s that weak willed that some woman hitting on him over his car is going to tempt him to sleep with her or something there are bigger problems at hand.

Anyway, I agree that the combination of being turned on by the idea of kissing other guys, liking the male attention, and the alcohol could possibly lead to something more. You’re talking to somebody who loves male attention and the feeling it gives me. I also agree that a ton of sudden changes in combination could be a red flag. Has he said that she’s buying lingerie he never sees? Guarding her phone? Had unaccounted for times away from him? I haven’t seen that said but maybe I missed it. For some women, especially when they reach a certain time in their lives, a combination of purely appearance changes doesn’t automatically mean they are looking to open themselves up for business with other men. She’s a wife and mother and has reached a certain time in her life and good for her that she’s lost weight, is feeling sexier, and the waxing may just go along with her efforts to feel hotter, younger, and so on. I think it’s unfair to say any of that automatically means she’s looking to get with other men, even with the fantasies they’ve shared together. Now, there are cases where women do improve their appearances for themselves and/or their spouses initially and as a side effect they gain a lot of confidence, start getting hit on by men that never paid attention to them before, and it all goes to their heads and suddenly they have outgrown their husbands and need something more exciting. I don’t think many married women actually drastically change/improve their appearance with the intention of finding a new man, but sometimes it is a side effect. If you aren’t used to getting that sort of attention before and suddenly you are, I imagine it can be quite intoxicating even without the alcohol involved. Maybe you haven’t felt like a sexual being for a long time and now…

 

[Cici1990]

I have to say Evinrude58 was dedicated to his marriage in that respect. I just can’t think of any man (or woman) I know in real life who would do that. This is why it’s just hard for me to comprehend. This is shocking to me, actually. So I guess I just know a lot of selfish people then (quite possible).


I do understand the concept of removing yourself from situations where temptation might be present because it’s something I need to practice myself, I just cannot fathom that a car would put somebody in that many tempting situations where you’d be in contact with any of these women long enough for anything to possibly happen. I guess these women were coming on pretty strong and not leaving him alone, hanging on him in bars, showing him their tatas, propositioning him for a bathroom rendezvous, idk.

I guess I still can’t quite get my head around the idea that people feel the need to remove all sorts of temptation from their lives. Certain things are obvious, like having too much to drink and kissing men at bars is definitely a danger zone for the typical person. But those people who feel the need to put up safeguards to avoid most interaction with the opposite sex, a bit extreme to me. I rather become the type of person who can be in all sorts of tempting situations and not bat an eye. Then I’d feel like the strength and power was within me and that I was truly trustworthy and not “trustworthy” simply because I’ve put all of these extreme safeguards in place. Isn’t it a bad sign when you have to remove the smallest interactions with the opposite sex?

What does that say about you if you can’t even trust yourself or your spouse to get a few winks and phone numbers thrown your way because chicks dig the car and not be tempted? I guess this is something that I actually think about frequently, but not specifically regarding a car…this is just a good example.

 

[Cici1990]

I have been hit on a few times because of “bling” including both of my sports cars and also watches. I actually felt embarrassed. Both cars are gone.

For me it wasn’t a temptation, I bought those items for myself and I was like hmm…I am representing middle aged gold digger target.

To be fair to the ladies I wasn’t wearing my wedding ring pretty much ever during those years, not sure it would have mattered.

Today a female coworker asked me how I maintain my cool and don’t kill people at work. I told her I used to when I was younger but now I’m too old to care. She said she would have guessed my age was X which is 10 years younger than my actual age. God bless her. That kind of interaction much better than, “I like your watch.”

Edit: I didn’t sell the cars because of unwanted female attention I sold them because of unwanted attention period. Fast and Furious boy racer challenges, driving flashy car in downtown SF (communist central) is unwise especially with the number of crazy homeless people who will throw a brick through your window, and then the general people taking pictures and selfies and stuff with your license plate on it. No thanks.

Nothing wrong with selling the cars if that’s what you wanted to do. My mind is blown over somebody selling their car because it resulted in too much temptation regarding the opposite sex, that’s all.

My husband doesn’t keep his car because of the attention he gets (honestly, we’ve discovered I get a lot more attention when I drive it than he does when he drives it), but because he loves it and he always dreamed of having that car and it makes him happy. I agree that he enjoys attention/compliments about other things more than comments made about his cool car. He loves to tell me when somebody thought he was in his early 20s or when somebody asks to touch his butt….ok, not even I go up to men and ask to touch their butts, so I do t know who he’s hanging around. But he knows it gets me excited when he tells me these things or when I witness it happen with my own eyes.

 

[Cici1990]

Remind us again, how that worked out for you? You have been extremely lucky, if one other sperm made it across the mark first, you would most probably be facing single motherhood. For most here it is wise to steer clear of temptation. For those who think they don't have to, it is actually paramount.

I am not there yet. I said I’d like to be. I’m working on my own personal boundaries and not necessarily focused on building a fortress around myself. For some people, building a fortress is their boundary and that’s where they are comfortable, ok. I don’t think I will ever be inside a fortress and I know maybe that’s a bad thing but I just don’t see that being realistic for me or for my husband.
I will not have male friends that I associate with alone, talk to privately via text, phone, social media, that sort of thing. I will never give a man my number, no matter if it’s under the guise of “friends,” and so on. These are rules I have for myself now that didn’t exist in my world before.

 

[Cici1990]

Some people value their spouse and their marriage over their cars. Or ego kibbles. Or porn. Or fantasies. Or their own wants. It's called "sacrifice," and it's a part of being an adult. A healthy marriage requires two of those.

Fair enough.

 

[Cici1990]

Come on Cici, you both love attention from the opposite sex, especially you.
Honestly I spend no time at all thinking about what women think of my husband or what men think of me.
It not something that matters to us, we are both secure in ourselves and what we think of each other is what matters.

It must be very draining to need that sort of attention for yourself and for your husband.

Yes, we both do. However, I can’t remember the last time I actually craved male attention. Then again, I was heavily pregnant. I know it will be a real test once I am back out into the real world again and back in shape. Will my therapy and work on myself be enough? It feels good not being overly concerned with having every guy’s attention when I walk in a room. It is almost like a burden is lifted off of me when I’m not thinking about or craving that. I no longer have any male numbers in my phone other than family and 2 gay guys who are married to each other and are my friends. My husband on the other hand still talks to his female friends.

Admittedly, yes it matters to me if other people want my husband and find him physically attractive. Sigh.

And admittedly, the thing I love most about driving his car is the male attention I get. I haven’t driven it in a while because it was too hard to get into during late pregnancy. Maybe I should take a page out of Evinrude’s book and not drive it when alone ever again. Maybe I’ll try it and see if I can resist the temptation.

And admittedly I have talked way too much in this thread and will respectfully stop at this time so that we can focus on the OP.

 

[Cici1990]

I had lots of numbers I threw away and only accepted out of courtesy.
I wore my ring. I trashed the card or number out at the gas pump or out if sight of the person that gave it.
Until one day a young girl in her late twenties that was gorgeous gave me hers, and I caught myself hesitating when I threw it away. I caught myself actually considering the idea in my head. It was up for sale a week later and I told my wife at the time that it got crappy gas mileage and I always worried about scratching it and I was tired of it. She never knew the real reason.

I wasn’t easily tempted. But that car brought more attention than I was accustomed to. Cici, you fail to consider that you’re gorgeous and have had that kind of attention all your life. You’re accustomed to it. I wasn’t.

I respect what you did, Evinrude. Good for you.