[oldshirt]

It’s ok to play with fire provided the fire department and paramedics are parked in your driveway and your insurance is all paid up to date.

It’s ok to have this fantasy fun talk. It’s ok to go out with friends. It’s even ok to have 3somes and have an open marriage or be swingers or whatever.

However the more you venture away from traditional monogamy and sexual exclusivity, the STRONGER and more specific and more exacting your boundaries need to be and you need to smackdown the slightest boundary incursion with the iron hand of discipline.

It’s ok to have a non traditional sexual dynamic but understand that it will require MORE work and higher standards of conduct and more ironclad boundaries, not less.

A traditional, monogamous couple will often have one rule in terms of contact with others - DONT!!

A non traditional couple will have dozens and dozens of various and even conflicting rules and limits and boundaries, and then they can find themselves becoming the Genitalia Police to make sure that if there is any kissing going on that there isn’t any tongue or that if there is oral taking place that there isn’t any swallowing etc etc

Any kind of open marriage is going to be MORE work and more boundaries and more monitoring and enforcement, not less.

You’ll need to ask yourselves if getting free drinks and some dancing and some kissy kiss etc is going to be worth the extra hassle.

Cont....

 

[oldshirt]

Now where I think you’re dropping the ball here is it sounds like your discussions on the matter here are largely taking place when the hormones are flowing and you are both aroused and horny or coming home drunk and full of horny hormones etc.

That’s fine and fun HOWEVER these are extremely serious topics that can have devastating effects on your home and marriage. This isn’t something that should be left up to fun and games while the hormones are flowing.

These are things that need to be discussed stone cold sober during the light of day when no one has any alcohol or horny hormones on board.

This needs to be deadpan serious with straight faces, uncompromising eye contact and serious tone of voice with exacting boundaries being out in place and clear understanding or what the results and outcomes of boundary violation will be.

 

[oldshirt]

Cont...

Athol Kay put it pretty well in his Married Man Sex Life book - I’m paraphrasing here but he basically said “ It’s ok to be a swinger, but you will need to be the biggest, most badazz stud in town.”

At the moment you are setting yourself up for failure because you are taking a passive, supporting role in her sexual adventures.

You are being the babysitter and nanny while the town studs get her juices flowing.

Chicks don’t desire the nanny. They desire the studs that are grinding and seducing them on the dance floor and rubbing their hard junk in their pants up against them.

It’s just a matter of time (assuming it hasn’t happened already) that she is going to fall for one of these hunks and you will become the full time nanny and the one that launders her underwear soaked with other men’s sperm.

 

[oldshirt]

the only thing that heavies my heart is her reaction to the "kiss" talk. I do trust that she is not trying to cheat, naive as that may sound, I just feel like she is getting new found attention at the moment and is trying to navigate through it.

That’s not naivette, that is negligence.

You are neglecting your marriage and your role as husband because she is coming home drunk and horny (from other men’s seduction and foreplay) and giving you blow jobs.

You’re being sexually lazy.

You think you’ve one-upped the system, but the reality is you are becoming the nanny while the town studs are the ones getting her juices flowing.

You’re not being naive, you are outright neglecting and ignoring human nature because you think it has been to your benefit thus far.

But the clock is ticking down to when she will fall for one or more of these studs and she will see you as the nanny and the maid and she will lose all sexual attraction and desire for you and will shift all of her sexual energies to the other man(s).

You are probably DAYS from this happening, if not already.

This is a completely predictable and algorithmic path - it WILL happen. This is human nature and it follows a very regular and predictable pattern.

You’ve been informed. It’s on you now.

 

[oldshirt]

I just feel like she is getting new found attention at the moment and is trying to navigate through it. Note that this is a recent phenomenon which is why I am so out of sorts but open communication is key

This isn’t some kind of sexual awakening or new chapter of self discovery or self awareness. She’s not blossoming into some new sexual creature that will bless you with a lifetime of erotic bliss.

She is a flesh and blood woman out hitting the streets looking for the next bigger, better deal.

She may be telling you she’s in it for attention, but in the clubs she’s marketing herself as an available woman and once someone she thinks is a bigger, better deal than you offers her full time, you’ll be helping her haul her stuff into his house.

I strongly urge you to look up and understand hypergamy because you are about to get smacked in the face with it.

 

[oldshirt]

What I would love to do and witness, is to listen to the ladies on TAM reading this, and digesting what is being said in this post and posts, even more 'salacious'.

How do they 'honestly' feel about flirting and roping in strange men?
Those one night stands, maybe, one hour lay-downs?

What is it, that they are really thinking when they hear of these things?

Do they feel disgusted?
Do they feel secretly stimulated?

Or, are they amazed at how some other people think and act?


Nemesis-

I don’t know about women in general, but I’m willing to bet that most of the women here on TAM just shake their heads and roll their eyes and chalk it up to another dumb guy who’s letting his little head do all the thinking instead of his big head.

 

[oldshirt]

That’s not naivette, that is negligence.

You are neglecting your marriage and your role as husband because she is coming home drunk and horny (from other men’s seduction and foreplay) and giving you blow jobs.

You’re being sexually lazy.

You think you’ve one-upped the system, but the reality is you are becoming the nanny while the town studs are the ones getting her juices flowing.

You’re not being naive, you are outright neglecting and ignoring human nature because you think it has been to your benefit thus far.

I made a pretty strong statement above so I figured I better back it up.

So let me ask you this - when was the last time YOU took her out dancing?

When was the last time you took her out with friends and bought her drinks and focused your attentions on her?

When was the last time you dirty danced with her and ground your hard junk into her while whispering in her ear all the things you wanted to do with her out in the parking lot?

When was the last time you were Big John Stud and showed her what a real man can do?

Instead of farming her out for other men to stimulate her while you sit home hoping she comes home horny enough to blow you, when was the last time you woo’d her and seduced her and took her to Pound Town and left her unable to walk on your own merits???

Like I said in my initial post, it’s ok to play these little fantasy games and it’s even ok to actually have sex with other people.....but if you want her to park her shoes under your bed at the end of the night, you have to be the Top Dog and her best lover and best option.

Can you sit there with a straight face and make the valid claim that you are her biggest and baddest stud horse???

 

[oldshirt]

I agree, my wife has always been into nerdy, quiet types like myself. She doesn't go for that "toxic masculinity" stereotype

Quiet nerdy types are the guys that would legitimately date and marry her and that she was able to secure as a mate and coparent.

That doesn’t mean she doesn’t get turned on and desire the guys at the club,

obviously she does because she said so herself to you that she likes them giving her attention, dancing and that she wants to kiss them ...... which also means she wants to have sex with them.

And it also needs to pointed out that “toxic masculinity “ is a 2020 feminist term used to shame men with traditional values, characteristics and behaviors.

Prior to 2020 these men were known as attractive men that get lots of chicks.

 

[oldshirt]

As a woman on TAM and as a cheater and attention wh*re, I still only speak for myself here when I say that not all women are turned on by men grinding on them on the dance floor and whispering perverted things in their ears - whether that man is their husband or some hot guy in a club. I’d be so grossed out if my husband or any man did that to me because I just finding grinding sort of embarrassing and cringeworthy. It doesn’t get me going at all. So don’t generalize all women here, ok?

I do know that many women are turned on by that stuff though. It certainly sounds like it’s the stuff that gets OP’s wife going, so it’s a relevant point here..

Yes it is a relevant point here because while it's true that there are some women that are not into clubbing and being hit on by other men, the OP's wife DOES.

She has came right out and stated that she wants the attention, wants to dance with other dudes and has stated upfront to him that she wants to lip-lock with other dudes which is just a lo-carb way of saying she wants to get down with other dudes.
For all intents and purposes, she is saying she wants an open marriage. She wants to be able to have sexual interaction and contact with other men while he babysits at home.

Now it's OK for couples to have an open marriage and it's OK to have sex with other people as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult. I'm not judging that.

BUT, the OP needs to understand the risks and needs to understand just what it is that he is up against here and what he stands to lose if he continues to babysit while he sends her out to score with other men.

And he needs to understand and accept human nature, male nature and female nature for what it actually is and not for what he hopes and wishes it to be that is convenient to him.

 

[oldshirt]

Hello, yes we did talk last night in depth. And the kissing was the first matter to tend to, so I asked and probed and I genuinely believe that she did not kiss any man or men with her lips and theirs. I do believe that she plopped a big wet smacker on a cheek as a thank you of sorts. I've known my wife long enough that I know when she isnt being up front. She typically is always up front, and when she's not, she dances around what she doesn't want to say, , I tell her "just tell me" and she does. She's not a liar. I on the other hand will lie from time to time, little things but intentional lies regardless (why didn't you pick up so and so at the grocery store? Oh, I thought I did, the cashier must've not sacked it, when in reality I just forgot). When I asked her if she's kissed anyone, I assured her that we could "come back from it" but to just be honest about it because this is a serious matter and honesty is the only way to get through. She took a deep breath and said "no, I haven't kissed anyone on the lips" and I said "show me then how you have" and she demonstrated , what I can only refer to as a "big ol' smooch" on the cheek. So I'm not concerned with a kiss, and truth be told I'm not worried that she has slept around. I did have my concerns that she had some kind of subconscious messaging due to our explicit fantasy talk that it would have my blessing if she did and I told her, "I feel like our sex talk has been sending you subconscious messages that I WANT you to cheat on me" and she told me "I've never taken that you want me to go out and find another guy. Is that what you think I've been wanting to do?" And I told her that I just feel that she thinks she has subconscious permission to sleep with other men. She went on about how we have a great structure with our family life and how she needs us both to be upfront with what we are feeling because she can't do this (family life) without me. She suggested to cut out the sex talk entirely, like to not even bring that kind of stuff up. I'll be honest, what I give her sexually at home "does the job". I'm not trying to sound like a stud because I am far from it but I do pleasure her 3 or 4 times every time we have a go at it. And sometimes we make passionate love with no dirty talk and other times we have raunchy heavy raw intimacy. Our sex life did have a lull many years ago but I occasionally take pills to help and it really has been super ever since. If I thought her to cheat, I would have thought it to be back then. I guess the thing that turns off a lot of people here is my comfort level with her having a drink bought for her, having a guy flirt with her or dancing with her. I know that's a lot for some to be okay with, but I've always had enough trust in her that she wouldn't let it get that far. I still do, but now that I had established the clear boundary of "kissing is cheating", she knows my limits. I guess the "kinky talk" is what has be more okay with that than others would permit. But we also don't have a "you can't even TALK" to the opposite sex when I'm not around type of relationship. She doesn't willingly intend to "go find a guy to dance with, flirt with and get drunk with", but it is happening more that she has been working on herself. In my younger days, the shoe was on the other foot and girls would talk to me and she would get very jealous. I just said "I'll never talk to another woman again when your not around" and its pretty much been that way ever since. I guess this is where I am after the talk.....I believe she still loves me and wants to make the marriage work. I believe she has not cheated on me. I believe she wants to make an effort to take my sensitivities into account and not trample on them. But I don't know that after "1 drink too many", that escalation can be avoided. I'm not going to tell her she can't go out with her friends, and as you know, her friends are also mothers with kids and families so i don't think she is around bad influences. She is going to play music bingo this Friday with the gals so I guess I'll just let time take it's course and gauge my trust level by then. Is she messes up, I know her "I messed up" body language all too well. There's no hiding that, it's impossible for her to. She genuinely is the most honest one in the relationship. I did tell her, "don't drink past your limit, I don't want you losing your inhibitions and feeling sick the day after" and I just have to place my trust and pray that's the case.

It's good that you had this discussion outside of the bedroom sober and without horny hormones coursing through your veins. I'll give you a few points there.

There is still work to be done here though.

What we don't know about her kiss on the cheek is whether it was after a dance or two or whether it was after he got done fingering her to orgasm on the dance floor or done bending her over the counter in bathroom.

Now I'm truly not trying to be jerk, I am hoping for the best for you and want this to work out OK.

But as I said in my post immediately above, she is for all practical terms asking for an open marriage and your consent to have sexual interactions with other men even though you have not used the term open marriage. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. it's not a blue jay.

You have told her you don't want her kissing other men on the lips. Have you told her you don't want her having PIV or oral or anal sex with other men or are you just assuming since you set a limit on kissing that that means that she won't allow any other touching or any other activities or contact????

That's is a sincere question because when there is alcohol in the system and horny hormones flowing and some tan young hunk with deep blue eyes and wavy blond hair is moving and shaking with her in rhythm on the dance floor and telling her how hot and sexy she is, is she really going to follow your algorithm and your idea of what is OK to the letter??

Human nature simply doesn't work that way. The heart wants what it wants. The vagina wants what it wants.

What you want back home while she is out drinking and partying and living it up and having a grand ol' time with other men is a whole different story.

The way you've written this, she can come home after screwing 5 guys and blowing 6 more and look you right in the eye and with all the seriousness and honesty in the world tell you that she did not kiss anyone.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is real. This is what people actually do in situations such as this. I'm not making this up.

It's ok to have an open marriage. It's ok to have consensual contact with other people. But you have to be aware of how nature and how sexuality works and you have to address the cold hard facts and the uncomfortable truths and have the difficult conversations.

As I said in my first post on this thread, open marriages take a lot MORE WORK and more communication and stronger boundaries and more vigilance and effort than traditional marriages.

It's good that you were willing to have this conversation and address this. But it's a first step and just scratching the surface.

If you want to sustain a happy and healthy marriage long term while she is out clubbing with other men while you are home babysitting,, you are at extremely high risk. It can be done. But you are going to have to have very specific and very rock solid boundaries and you are going to have to be ready, willing and able to put the smackdown on anything even resembling approaching the line and you are going to need to have your affairs in order and be able to carry on in the event she comes home one night and starts packing her bags to move into the next guy's house.

 

[oldshirt]

But you are going to have to have very specific and very rock solid boundaries and you are going to have to be ready, willing and able to put the smackdown on anything even resembling approaching the line and you are going to need to have your affairs in order and be able to carry on in the event she comes home one night and starts packing her bags to move into the next guy's house.

In all honesty, I would suggest you get a post-nup.

I know that sounds kind of extreme, but I do think that given your dynamics here that you are at very high risk of her cheating or of falling for someone else or of her losing all attraction and desire for you and just simply packing up and leaving one of these days.

Again, if you are going to play with fire, have the insurance policy up to date.

I think in this case I think a post-nup stipulating if she cheats or if she falls for another guy and wants out of the marriage that she cannot completely take you to the cleaners.

As a husband and father you are already at a legal disadvantage in a divorce. Depending on your state and your family financials etc, there is nothing stopping her from leaving you for some other guy and packing up the kids and having you "visit" them every other weekend while you pay child support and pay her alimony while she goes on Caribbean cruises with Steve From Accounting.

A post nup with give you a little legal, financial and parental protection in a very high risk venture and it will give her a strong message that you are serious and that the stakes are high that she is on notice about her behavior.

You are actually giving her a pretty big gift here and a lot of leeway and consideration as a married woman with young children. For you to be OK with watching kids while she goes out and parties and dances the night away with men charming her up and telling her how hot she is and coming home with you being ok with it is a pretty major bonus point for her.

The least she could do is allow you to protect your home, your parental rights and your finances in the high risk event she goes over the line.

 

[oldshirt]

Not everyone would react that way though and possibly it could be putting her in danger. It’s not just a bit of a laugh depending on the type of place she’s at and how the clientele is.

I was going to mention that as well. In fact I am surprised no one else has mentioned that angle.

If she is going out looking for male attention and drinks and dancing and flirting it up yet truly drawing the line and cutting things off at kissing, Then she is intentionally being a teaser and attention wh0re.

Most guys will just grunt in disappointment and move on to the next and chalk it up to chicks being goofy.

But there are always going to be a few guys that won't take kindly to be lead on and pimped for drinks and getting their wood all hard only to be told no that her husband isn't ok with her screwing them.

There can always be some that won't take no for an answer. Yes that is a criminal offense, but it is still a reality.

I can't overstate this - this is a very high risk venture. It may seem like fun and games when you are making lively pillow talk while youre all full of horny hormones. But there are so many things that can go wrong with this.

I'm all about living life to the fullest and not living in fear or holing yourself up in your bunker 24/7. But just being a responsible adult means facing facts, being aware of the risks and taking proper measures to address and mitigate those risks.

 

[oldshirt]

Another option, is to have a friend who she doesn’t know be your spy. Paying for some guys cover, drinks, and transportation is a cheap route for privately investigating.

I agree with this.

If you are going to support and enable her doing this,,, at least find out what it is exactly that she is doing.

I think all of us here can safely assure you she is not just hanging out at the table with the girls talking about work gossip and at some point a guy buys her a drink and they have one dance and then she goes back to her table and he goes back to his.
You only know the very tip of the iceberg.

Get someone she doesn't know whether it's an actual PI or some trusted friend or relative to follow her for the night. I am willing to bet a crisp, shiny new dollar bill that you will be in for a very big shock.

 

[oldshirt]

But still…that turned on by dancing with a woman that they have to excuse themselves to the bathroom to rub one out? I’m going to ask some of my clubbing friends about this one. I mean my husband has had boners in public and never had to excuse himself to rub one out. He can at least wait until he gets home.

I am sure that whoever made the cumming in their pants comment was using that as a figure if speech and not to be taken literally.

 

[oldshirt]

I mean, the feedback I'm getting from the vast majority of the posts here seem to say "run for the hill, it's done for" but from our conversation, she made it to be like she wants to make changes to keep the marriage intact. She made the "let's eliminate the kinky talk", suggestion, she said she feels much better about the direction of our marriage now that I "cleared the air". She suggested I do things for myself. I was originally going to see new new 007 movie on Saturday by myself at the movie/brewhouse. She said "let's get a sitter and go together." She said, "why haven't we had conversations like these before?" I may be a fool but I wholeheartedly believe she respects what I am not willing to tolerate. My only concern is when too much alcohol happens, those boundaries are out the window. I got what I needed from the kiss talk.....lip to lip kissing to me means it may as well be over. Look, in my younger days, I would frequent bars while married to see live touring bands. I kept her awake aplenty while she wondered what kind of shenanigans I might get myself into. But I don't drink much at all, and I was never there to pursue other women. I was legitimately there to watch live music. Would girls occasionally look in my direction? Sure, but I never approached them. Would I talk to them on occasion when approached? Sure, sometimes a woman would just converse with me and I would talk for a little and that was that. Was "sex racing through my head"? Yeah, absolutely. I'm a red blooded male. But I respected her enough to know right from wrong. The issue here is too much alcohol. I'm comfortable with the boundaries regarding free drinks, dancing and flirting because if the shoe was on the other foot, I would want her to understand that I'm not totally going to shun myself from interaction. So long as it stays in my pants and as long as she keeps it in hers, I would want her to be okay with some playful flirting or a random dance with a random stranger too on my end because unfaithfulness isn't what is driving the behavior, "having a good time and feeling good about myself" is the driver. I do believe she is not all on on adultery but our years of sex talk was in retrospect a horrible idea because I'm sure when the looks started going her way, she was likely testing the waters to see where my stance is. I don't think I'm out of the woods, not by a longshot. 2 conversations is one thing, being drunk and trying to make sound decisions is another. HappilyMarried1, I respect your input, it is the most valuable to me in these comments. Please let me know what you think of this.

A couple things to note here -

Unlike a number of the other posters here, I don’t have an issue with your kinky fantasy talk in the privacy of your own bedroom and believe that under the right circumstances and with solid, Chrystal clear boundaries in real life, fantasy talk can be a positive and beneficial thing.

I don’t think you need to end the sex talk at all. If you both enjoy it and you both understand and comply with the rules of conduct in real life, then there’s no real need to end that.

However another point that needs to made is your experiences at the club is in absolutely no way shape or form an apples to apples comparison to her experience at at a club.

I’m assuming you are a normal, average Joe and all round decent guy.

You could go to the clubs 6 nights a week and approach every single woman there with full intent of trying to get in their knickers and you might get lucky and be able to score some fat, drunk chick that just broke up with her boyfriend every now and then.

In other words you would only be able to score randomly and infrequently no matter how hard you tried and much of that would just be random dumb luck.

I’m no knocking you or putting you down and I would not be able to do any better, that’s just the reality for the vast majority of men that aren’t pro athletes, rock stars, celebrities or male models.

Contrast that with your wife who could literally walk in and invite any man to join her in the stall of the ladies with any man at any time.

Now ok she likely would not do that. But the moment she walks in, other men are going to be scoping her out and sizing her up and approaching her and taking their shot.

It’s just simply a different reality for men vs women in a club environment.

All it would take would be for her to have gotten a little miffed at you or feeling a little neglected by you for whatever reason on a day she happened to be ovulating and maybe had one too many drinks and some tall, handsome guy with good game approaches her and flirts her up well and all the stars line up in a perfect storm.

Is this where you want to be when Jesus comes back??

Is this really an appropriate environment and appropriate activity for a married woman to be in regularly.

You talk about trust and communication and that you know her etc etc but how much are you willing to bet on a whole bunch of variables and factors that you simply cannot control and that cannot be overcome with trust and communication.

She may be a nice person that helps orphaned kittens and is good with children, but she is still a flesh and blood female who’s DNA and genetic coding is only a couple of percentage points away from a baboon in heat on the plains of Africa.

And then men in the club are probably closer yet to their primordial ancestors.

We all try to behave like civilized beings when we’re being watched in public. But we are all still flesh and blood animals at our core.

 

[oldshirt]

Unfortunately for some reason, he seems unwilling to understand this or DO anything about it.

I am getting the impression that this goes beyond naivette or lack of understanding.

And I think it goes beyond not wanting to do anything about it.

I get the feeling he thinks it is somehow ‘below’ him to be concerned with her activities and that he is somehow superior to the common man to worry about such primal concerns.

Even if actual arrogance is not a factor, there are people that see themselves as more enlightened and more woke than to be concerned with such indignities as sexual attractions for other people or the nasty scandals of the loins.

There are people that feel they are the superior man or the superior woman as such that they can allow their spouse to live as a single person on the market but that they won’t be negatively effected.

I’m getting the feeling the OP thinks he is being the better man by giving her this opportunity to get her jollies with other men and that he is above any kind of petty jealousies or insecurities.

Some of these guys also think their wives are too pure and too virtuous than to have any karnal desires of the flesh.

I’ve known some guys like this. They have all gotten humbled at some point when they realize they are not more enlightened and that their wives are not above karnal desires of the flesh.

 

[oldshirt]

Uh huh. You’ve described my husband here.

how so? Do explain.

It may be relevant if you are seeing similarities between the OP and your H.

 

[oldshirt]

I wonder if she is wearing a wedding ring when she is doing this flirting, dancing and getting drinks from guys.

@BurntEnds Does your wife wear her wedding band?

Wedding rings aren’t going to stop dudes at the club.

Some guys will even specifically target married women because they are often easier to pick up for NSA hook ups and already have someone at home taking care of the kids and paying bills and killing spiders etc.

 

[oldshirt]

Yeah she wears her band. Well, she has two that she normally wears together but she takes off the "expensive" one when she goes out to places that might be at risk of theft

Wearing rings at a club doesn’t mean anything. Guys aren’t there buying drinks and dirty dancing looking for a wife.

They are looking for quick and easy hook ups with minimum investment and NOT having to marry someone and take up homemaking and child rearing and changing their flat tires in the rain.

A number of guys even specifically prefer married women because they are easier to schmooze and they already have a chump at home taking care of kids and paying bills and such.

 

[oldshirt]

I will keep updating as events occur. I get the feeling that my wife is at a crossroads in her life. The older the kids get, she gets really sad that they're not babies anymore and misses the motherhood aspect of raising little ones. She's wanted a third child and wrestles with that versus advancing her career in education. I think a lot of this plays into our current dynamic. I read the post you recommended and I really do not have worries about "a consistent man that she is becoming emotionally invested with". She doesn't exhibit warning signs of an emotional attachment with another man and she isn't trying to get knocked up by another man just because she wrestles with having a third child. She always praises my fatherhood, tells me that I'm such a good dad to our kids and says I'm the reason she thinks a 3rd kid is a good idea. Our level of emotional investment hasn't changed,she hasn't tuned out at all so I really don't think she is falling in love with another man. I legitimately feel that is not the case here. Our fantasy talk or real talk has always been centered on strangers, "random hotties" that we encounter that turn us on. It's no secret that a long marriage involves both partners occasionally thinking of these "random hotties" during intimacy. It's no secret either that we see attractive people and get turned on by them too. We both acknowledge this. We've both acknowledged that we think of other people during sex. Like once time I saw a scantily clad woman at a store with no bra, a skimpy tank top and short shorts showing off her rear end and she absolutely got my engine going. During sex, I told her about her and she told me to imagine her while we were going at it. Other times I start with the dirty talk and her response is "no, I just want you" which is when she just wants to make love. But I'm rambling.....the point is, for the two of us, the random stranger that we find desirable or that they find us desirable is the actual "kink", this is the turn on that would make two average looking individuals with no significant traits considered to be "peak beauty" feel sexually charged. I hate to think I am alone in both of us being turned on by this but the onslaught of commenters seem to indicate that perhaps I am. Like every normal couple out there has the "I only think about you baby" attitude except maybe OldShirt. Part of being honest with the two of us is acknowledging what we are thinking. But in either case, I think my head is in a better place than 2 days ago. The commenters seem to think that I am some political lefty (terms have been used in comments like "woke" or neo-feminist), which is frankly quite insulting. I'm a super moderate guy and I don't fall into all this team red/team blue silliness. I am just a guy who likes his wife to feel desired and gets turned on when she feels desires, especially because she has had self esteem issues for the majority of her life. Commenters have talked about her waxing her hoo-ha like if that is some sort of dead giveaway of infidelity. I disagree. She has always been "very hairy" down there. She doesn't like to shave because she would often get painful ingrown hairs. But we go to the beach and she doesn't like a huge muff bulging through her swimsuit. So in July prior to a beach trip, she decided to do a full Brazilian so that the hair wouldn't show through her white full body swimsuit. I didn't object and actually found it quite arousing as I could see the whole thing. And when I play down there, she says she can feel every part of her organ getting treated since it's so clean. This is when she says she started feeling more "womanly" and I guess started getting a big head about her sexuality. People also comment that shes losing weight for someone else or to find a new partner. Again, I disagree. She has always struggled with her weight. At one point she was 240 lbs. Her ideal weight is 175. She is down to 180. So this has been the cycle off and on since I've known her. Weight loss isn't something she just started doing, she's been trying to manage it for most of her life. But what I am saying is that these are all contributing factors that have led us where we are at. Shes looking good and feeling good about herself. More eyes are going in her direction. Shes at a crossroads in life with motherhood. She's had unhealthy subconscious reinforcement from me that I might be open for an open marriage. Couple all this with being out on the town with her gal pals with booze in the mix can certainly lead to disaster. I think that's why our boundary conversation was crucial, and she knows my honest feelings about our dirty talk and how we have to cut it off. I agree that we are probably still playing with fire, and by no means do I feel like I am out of the woods, but i do feel that at least in a sober state, we are on the same page. I feel like I at least have a water hose handy instead of being empty handed.

Your fantasy talk is fine as long as there are solid boundaries in place on real life behavior and as long as you are ready, willing and able to enforce them.

Everyone fantasizes about other people to one degree or another at times. Anyone that says they don’t are just trying to look holier than thou. Some may even be able to convince THEMSELVES that they don’t... but they actually do.

This is all a boundary and appropriate behavior issue.

It’s ok to have fantasy talk if it gets your motor running. There ain’t nothing wrong with that and full grown adults are able to differentiate between pillow talk and mutual consent for an open relationship.

But the key is solid, expressed boundaries and expectations of conduct in real life.