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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi,

Back in July we had a day that ended up costing us our relationship. The day after the event, I wrote this letter to her describing my perception of the events. After months of ignoring what I said completely, she finally said that my perceptions were not accurate but would not elaborate further. I am hoping to get someone else's perspective on this. My family says that she's nuts, her family says that I'm wrong. My family wants to hear her side of things (but she won't tell anyone) and her side of the family isn't interested in hearing me out. There are kids involved and I need to know what is going on here. My daughter Sam was 5 at the time and my son Dylan was 2. The ride to the beach was about 1.5 hours. George is my brother who was staying with us for a few weeks to get some things in order before moving on. After we broke up, she filed a frivolous restraining order against me that went nowhere in an attempt to get me out of my house, cleaned out my house while I was away for business, and took the kids from the house until we got a temporary order in court. Below is the letter:

This is an example of a lot of fights that we have.

Sunday, the beach day.

The night before I brought up the George living in the attic subject. While I was trying to explain it, you kept cutting me off saying no and giving me reasons for it. I was getting frustrated because you were not letting me finish my thoughts and reasons for them. You said that you didn’t want to talk about it for the rest of the night and that got me upset because I felt that you were not giving me a chance to speak. I went inside and thought about it, went for a drive and thought about it some more. I came to the conclusion that you were not receiving the conversation and that I was only thinking about myself by trying to force an answer out of you. You were sleeping by the time I got there so I thought we would just have a new day in the morning and I could tell you then.

On Sunday morning, I got up in a really great mood. I was thinking about the beach and how I was going to take Sam and Dylan out to catch crabs and all of that other stuff. I got up with Dylan and went down and made eggs. You and Samantha were still in bed.

I went up, said good morning (you just looked at me and didn't say anything) and asked you if you wanted eggs for breakfast and you immediately said "that's how you're going to waste time this morning?" in a sarcastic and very unfriendly tone. I told you that they only take a minute to make. You said that they take a long time and then I was going to spend "half the morning" cleaning up. I asked you what I should make and you said: "just make some cereal" also with a sarcastic tone. I asked you if you were in a bad mood and you snapped back "are you?" I said, "no, I'm in a good mood" and asked what you needed me to do.

There were a few more times when we had the same type of interaction in the morning but I'm saving space and I don't have the time to write them all out. You were giving me the cold shoulder and sarcastic comments and replies. At one point I asked you if you needed a hug or what else you need from me and you just told me to leave you alone.

Then the shower happened.

I asked if you had taken a shower. You said you had to shave your legs. I said that I was going to take a quick one just to rinse off. You said, "what? We're going to the beach!"

I said that it would only be a second. You immediately, with your head cocked to one side (attitude sign,) asked if George had taken a shower. I told you that he hadn't and that I was with him all morning. You said that someone did, and if I was taking a shower now, then it had to be him. You then said that you didn't like him walking into the bedroom (the reason I told him to use the other bathroom that you gave me **** for last night) to take a shower. I told you again that he didn’t take a shower. You said that you heard the shower door open and close and said "I'm not dumb. I've been here long enough. I know what the shower door sounds like and someone was in there this morning."

That's when I looked in the shower to check for water and noticed all of his soap and stuff in there. There was no water in the shower to indicate that someone had taken a shower, but I said that he had a lot of soap. You said "yeah, that's because he took a shower! You don't pick up on much, do ya?!?!"

That was the comment that pissed me off but I didn't say anything until you left the room because I was trying to ride it out and was thinking "if it's intense it's yours" that I got from Dale. I did want to vent though so when you left the room (or I thought you had) I said, "what the ****? This is ****ing ridiculous!"

You came right back in and said "do you have something to say to me?" and that's when the **** hit the fan. I told you that you had been acting like a jerk all morning. You made some wise-ass comment about George living there and me not being a good father to my kids by having him there. That seems to be your go-to subject because you know that it bothers me. (that's abusive!) I tried to answer you about him living there but you slammed the door and walked out.

I took a quick shower and then started out to go get a coffee. I wanted some time to cool down because I was pretty upset at that point.

To be clear, I was in an awesome mood and you kept going and going and going until I was not, then you blamed me for not being able to enjoy the day! That's also abusive.

To me going to get a coffee, you said "there's a waste of ANOTHER hour. You care more about your coffee than taking your kids to the beach!"

I turned and walked away from you. You then said that I was abandoning my family because my feelings were hurt. I asked you why you would want to do that (meaning hurting my feelings) and you said "ummm…because that's what families with normal fathers do…they go to the beach."

I went out to the car and that's when you closed the door on my ankle, yelled at me, called me a ****ing *******, told me that I sucked, told me to **** off, told me to leave you alone and spend the day with my brother, and said that Sam is going to remember what an ******* I am when she grows up.

Then you noticed me start recording and you toned down your voice and started jogged away.

I left and drove around the block. I was home in about 8 minutes after I cooled down. My ankle hurt from where you shut the door on it twice. You then asked me if I was going to go to the beach with you and if I could help you load the car. You acted like nothing had happened. Once the car was loaded, you asked me if I wanted to drive and handed me the keys. As we were pulling away, you made a comment about whether or not I was going to get coffee in a sarcastic tone. I asked you if you wanted one in response and you didn't answer me. As we were going down Elm Street, I turned the radio on and you immediately shut it off again and asked me why I was going to fast. I was going about 33 MPH in a 30 MPH zone. I drove toward Starbucks and the car was silent. I could tell that Samantha was uncomfortable and I couldn't see Dylan.

As I started to pull into Starbucks, you snapped at me about what I was doing and said that we didn't have time to stop. I said that I ordered online and that my coffee should just be sitting there and I'd be right out. I had ordered at the light downtown but hadn't gotten you one since you didn't answer me when I asked you. While I was getting out of the car in the parking lot, you asked me if I was going to be getting anything to eat. I said that I was just getting coffee and repeated that it was going to be sitting there. You asked me what the point of going to Starbucks was if I wasn't getting anything to eat. Yes, you said that. I didn't say anything because I thought it would be taken the wrong way but asked you if you wanted something to eat. At that point, you asked me what they had there. I started to answer you and you said: "just get me whatever!" I said, "okay, muffin?" You snapped back before I even finished and said, "something with chocolate in it! Are you going to go or what?" I started to ask the kids if they wanted anything and you answered for them "they don't want anything! They already ate, right?!?!" sarcastically because I had made them breakfast.

I took my phone and started to order because it was Sunday morning and ordering online is generally quicker that way. You asked me what I was doing and before I could answer said, "just go in the ****ing store and get it!" I just walked away.

When I came back to the car, you asked me what took me so long and said that you thought ordering online was quicker. I didn't say anything.

The ride to the beach was almost silent except for times when I tried to talk to the kids. Dylan slept most of the way and Sam was on her iPad. You were curled up in the passenger seat with a frown on your face for the entire ride.

When we got to the beach, I started to unpack the car. I took out the bike trailer and you asked me why I had brought it. I said to put stuff in to bring to the beach. You told me that I should just leave it in the car and that it wasn't going to work. I brought it anyway and it helped to carry all of our stuff and Dylan.

When we got to the spot where we were going to sit we walked back to the concession area to get sunscreen and food, you took both of my hands and asked me if we could have a nice day at the beach. I was totally confused but said that of course, I wanted to have a nice day and I told you that I loved you. When I said that, you pulled your hands away and started walking to the concession stand. You were icy for the rest of the day other than two times when you talked to me about wanting to get a power boat instead of a sailboat and when we were eating lunch. I mainly played with Sam and Dylan and we had an awesome day catching crabs, laughing, swimming, and watching fish.

When we first got in the car for the ride home, I thought we were in good shape and things were going to be okay. I was in one of the best moods I had been in all year. I had been looking forward to spending a day at the beach for a very long time and really had a great time. While we were driving out of the beach parking lot, I tried to hold your hand. You looked at me and pulled your hand away and then started going through FaceBook on your phone. I didn't let it change my mood and I talked to Sam and Dylan about the size of the stripers that we saw while we were swimming. When I asked you what you were doing, you sighed and said that you were working.

We drove for about 15 minutes in silence. We were going 55 MPH which is the speed limit and were in a line of cars. You looked up from your phone and asked me if I had somewhere to be. I answered you "no" and you snapped asking why I was driving so fast and reminded me that I had kids in the car. I told you that I was going the same speed as other cars and that it was the speed limit and you said whatever.

A few minutes later, an Audi got in front of us and started playing games on the highway. He would slow down to about 40 and then race up to the car in front of him. I was behind him for a while and would glide up behind him when he would slow down. One time I had to hit the breaks and you looked up and asked "why are you ****ing with him? Just let him go!" I said that I wasn't and told you that he was slowing down and speeding up. You said "if you don't slow down, you're going to get us all in an accident! Think about your children!" I hadn't been doing anything wrong.

After you said that, I passed him. I had to get up to 70 MPH to do that. You said "you don't even care about your family. It's going to be really nice when you get us killed because you can't control your emotions on the highway!" I had been driving responsibly the entire time. I asked you what was wrong and if there was anything I could do for you and you replied back with "what? Are you finally becoming a man? Your voice just cracked." then you shook your head and said "****ing *******." that's when I shut down for the rest of the ride. You had said all of that loud enough for Sam and Dylan to hear you. I looked back when you said it and Sam was looking right at me with a confused look on her face.

There was quite a bit of traffic and you made a bunch of other comments about my driving, how I abandon my family, said that I don't do anything around the house, called me an *******, a ****ed up piece of ****, a loser, said that the kids don't respect me, and told me about 4 times that we shouldn't be together. When you called me "a ****ed up piece of ****" I looked at Sam and she looked hurt and confused. I was furious, but I didn't react. I just took it. When we were on route 2, you told me that the kids were hungry and asked if I was going to do anything about that or if I even cared. I said that we could go to McDonald's and you told me that we should just wait until we get to Leominster. I got off on 2A and stopped at McDonald's and got the kids happy meals. I asked if you wanted anything but you didn't answer me.

We left heading toward 495. While I was driving, you made a few more comments about my driving. When I was getting on 495, there was a woman who appeared to want to pass me while I was getting on the highway, but then slowed down. When she slowed down the person behind her beeped. You quickly sat up, looked back and asked Sam "did you hear that person beeping the horn?" when she said yes, you said, "yeah, she was beeping at daddy…because his driving SUCKS!" Sam looked at me again when you said it and you stared at me with a frown on your face.

I asked you to just stop after you said that and you asked, "do I need to behave?" I said that you needed to reel it in but you cut me off and said "or what?!?" then you started making immature faces like you had buck teeth. Then you started sucking on your teeth and saying "that's you! That's you!" I felt like I was in the car with a 12-year-old who was bullying a kid. Then you started making what you called "retard noises" and saying "ok rob, ok rob. Over and over again. You did that all the way home and I didn't react. When we pulled into the driveway, you asked, "what are you going to do, tell my dad? Are you going to tell on me?" I looked at Sam again and she looked hurt. She said, "mamma, can I just go in the house?" and went in. You went in and I got Dylan. You yelled back "are you going to get the **** out of the car?" and went back in. I brought Dylan in and went into the garage. When I came in, you said: "I'm tired of you treating me like ****!" I asked you what you were talking about and you said, "you can't control yourself! You freaked out on me for no reason and I'm tired of you treating me like ****!" I asked if you were in the car for the ride home and you asked if I was.

In the past, I would have reacted to you because that would have made you stop and sulk. This time, I didn't do anything but when we got back, you acted like I had anyway.


That's an example of how the majority of our fights are. If you think that this is me abusing you, you're nuts. I have been dealing with this since the beginning of our relationship and it has not stopped. It toned down when you quit drinking (it was really bad then) but it has not stopped. It seems like it's something to do with that time of the month though because you are like two different people.

Dale mentioned going to counseling and I told you that I was open to it but I need your answer.
 

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I would have stopped the car and threw her out.
It is bad enough that you are been treated like this by your wife but the fact that she happily abuses you in front of your children speaks volumes.
Do you want your children to grow up thinking this is normal behavior for a married couple?
Her taking so long to reply and then saying your perception is incorrect is a classic case of re writing history.
Send this letter to her parents as well as your own.
And stay the **** away from her unless there are independent witnesses around,this woman sounds crazy and you should never expect her to act rationally.
 

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The husband not the wife.
Check out his writing.

Or maybe me. Yeah, that's it!

He is George, she has discovered him.
She is married to two men.

One in the open, the other, undercover, in the attic.
 

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...You're nuts. I have been dealing with this since the beginning of our relationship and it has not stopped.... you are like two different people.
Isit, welcome to the TAM forum. You are not describing a woman who is "nuts." Rather, you are describing classic narcissistic behavior (e.g., never wrong, always right, self centered, strong feeling of entitlement, and harming her own children by displaying hateful behavior in front of them). I generally do not comment on narcissistic behavior because it is so easy to spot and easy to understand. I find narcissistic behavior to be pretty cut and dried.

What I find interesting in your letter, however, is that you felt like you had been living with a woman who had behaved "like two different people" since the beginning of your relationship. This is interesting because people exhibiting strong narcissistic symptoms generally are emotionally stable and predictable.

When combined with strong anger issues, the emotional instability you seem to describe is a hallmark not of narcissism but, rather, of BPD traits (i.e., Borderline Personality Disorder symptoms). Moreover, it is common for the abused spouses in BPDer relationships to complain that they feel like they're living with a person who is halfway to having a multiple-personality disorder (now called Dissociative PD).

Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your Ex's issues. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid staying in a toxic marriage and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. Moreover, it is important to know what your two children are dealing with.

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of these red flags at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells and raises questions, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Isit.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
George is my brother who was living with us temporarily and offered to help finish the attic. He was moving on but had to sort out some things before going. My Ex was well aware of the situation and appeared to use it as something to be upset about that day and the night before.
 

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Why are you doing this? Nobody can fairly assess your ex's behavior from your (intentionally or not) biased version of events. Move on. Is coming here looking for support of your one sided description of events going to help you? To me, the only reason to rehash these events with someone who is now your ex is to learn what to do differently in the future - either learning better mate selection or better ways of dealing with a spouse in marriage. Your coming here looking to have other people sign on to your version of events doesn't seem helpful to you. Move on.
 

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George is my brother who was living with us temporarily and offered to help finish the attic. He was moving on but had to sort out some things before going. My Ex was well aware of the situation and appeared to use it as something to be upset about that day and the night before.
Ah......

I could have waited to opine, to blabber.
I failed at the first [to wait], and proved true the latter [blabber], in this, your post.

Facts set the table.

Lack of facts, set the fable. One pieced together using straw and clay.
I defer to comment further, lest I continue to blabber.

You are in good hands, one often sought, sent from @Uptown, Manhattan, notably 42nd and 7th Avenue, Times Square, NYC.

SCM-
 

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Why are you doing this?
Isit (the OP) clearly announced his intentions in the thread title. He wants to "figure out her attitude or personality." He is simply trying to figure out what he and his two children are dealing with.

Nobody can fairly assess your ex's behavior from your (intentionally or not) biased version of events. Move on. Is coming here looking for support of your one sided description of events going to help you?
FalCod, every thread on this TAM forum is started by someone having a "biased version of events." As a human being, every TAM member has the problem of being biased about emotionally intense issues. A primary reason for coming to TAM for advice, then, is to obtain views that may be much less biased from people who are not emotionally involved.

To me, the only reason to rehash these events with someone who is now your ex is to learn what to do differently in the future - either learning better mate selection or better ways of dealing with a spouse in marriage.
That's the "only reason"? Really? I can think of several reasons. The most important, of course, is to find out what his two children are dealing with when their mother has custody of them. Hence, if Isit decides that he has been seeing strong symptoms for BPD and/or NPD, I would advise him to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by himself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that his children are having to deal with.
 

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George is my brother who was living with us temporarily and offered to help finish the attic. He was moving on but had to sort out some things before going. My Ex was well aware of the situation and appeared to use it as something to be upset about that day and the night before.
I apologize.

When you named George, it reminded me of "Of Mice and Men".

And the phantom rabbits he held, dear, too strongly.
The rabbits were in his head, an empty attic for sure.
 

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Isit (the OP) clearly announced his intentions in the thread title. He wants to "figure out her attitude or personality." He is simply trying to figure out what he and his two children are dealing with.

FalCod, every thread on this TAM forum is started by someone having a "biased version of events." As a human being, every TAM member has the problem of being biased about emotionally intense issues. A primary reason for coming to TAM for advice, then, is to obtain views that may be much less biased from people who are not emotionally involved.

That's the "only reason"? Really? I can think of several reasons. The most important, of course, is to find out what his two children are dealing with when their mother has custody of them. Hence, if Isit decides that he has been seeing strong symptoms for BPD and/or NPD, I would advise him to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by himself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that his children are having to deal with.
And possibly, a court order.
Separating her from her children.

If they are in danger.
In body, certainly of mind.

Mind damage from their mother.
 

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To me the whole event was one running battle. I think you need to start before there were already open hostilities. I don't think it is useful to simply describe how she fights a war.

Was there a time she was perfectly happy to invite your brother into the home with open arms? if so, did something happen to change her mind? Did your wife tell you he has to go? What was your reaction?

I will admit from the way you wrote I do suspect you may have unilaterally decided your brother was moving in and informed your wife of your decision, and she did not want him there from the beginning. Your attempts to discuss things with your wife sound like attempts to talk her into accepting the situation because you were not willing to take no for an answer no matter how often she said it.

I think if you want to understand what is going on you need to examine how the fight began, not just jump into the middle of it.

I do wish you well in your journey of discovery.
 

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To me she sounds very rude, offensive, disrespectful, moody, immature and the way she speaks and acts around the children is appalling. Far too many people on TAM blame bad behaviour on some sort of mental condition. Most of the time its purely just bad behaviour.
I wouldn't put up with the way you were treated and if you aren't careful both of the children are going to be very messed up and your daughter will end up just like her mum.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
To me she sounds very rude, offensive, disrespectful, moody, immature and the way she speaks and acts around the children is appalling. Far too many people on TAM blame bad behaviour on some sort of mental condition. Most of the time its purely just bad behaviour.
I wouldn't put up with the way you were treated and if you aren't careful both of the children are going to be very messed up and your daughter will end up just like her mum.
She is out of the house and in a full-on NPD style battle for custody and support. Her proposition was that I have supervised visitation with my kids every other Sunday from 11 am - 2 pm and preferably at her parents' house. I have been a good father this entire time and my kids love me. They cry when I have to bring them to her new place. If there was any doubt about her crappy behavior and style of living her life, it has been removed. I have no sympathy for her and look forward to the day when she is out of the kids' lives as much as possible. I have witnessed numerous incidents of abuse and even though it is a violation of the temporary order, she is not allowing me to contact with the children during the time when they are in her care because she is "worried about what he might say to them."
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I know how the fight began. She has mental health issues. She was fine with my brother being there. She used that as a way to start a fight.
 

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She is out of the house and in a full-on NPD style battle for custody and support. Her proposition was that I have supervised visitation with my kids every other Sunday from 11 am - 2 pm and preferably at her parents' house. I have been a good father this entire time and my kids love me. They cry when I have to bring them to her new place. If there was any doubt about her crappy behavior and style of living her life, it has been removed. I have no sympathy for her and look forward to the day when she is out of the kids' lives as much as possible. I have witnessed numerous incidents of abuse and even though it is a violation of the temporary order, she is not allowing me to contact with the children during the time when they are in her care because she is "worried about what he might say to them."
Presumably you have good legal advise and are making a note of all the abuse you have witnessed? What she is offering you is madness. There is no need for you to have supervised visits nor to only see them for 3 hours every other week. That is madness . At least try for 50% custody. I feel for you and them, poor kids. :frown2:
 
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