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He has seen a psychiatrist, an individual counsellor, we have gone to 3 marriage counsellors where he lied, denied, charmed and threw me under the bus while ignoring their advice.
Likewise, I spent a small fortune sending my BPDer exW to six different psychologists for weekly sessions for 15 years. And we saw 3 MCs. None of it made a dent in her bad behavior. Not one dent.

If he fears disapproval, it’s ok to lie. He lies even when telling the truth would be beneficial.
The lying is much more characteristic of NPD than BPD. My experience is that, although a BPDer will lie to avoid humiliation, he generally tries to avoid it. A BPDer is filled with so much self loathing and guilt that the last thing he wants to do is one more thing that adds to that guilt.

More importantly, a BPDer usually has no need to lie because he is so heavily reliant on projection. His subconscious works 24/7 protecting his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality (i.e., from seeing his own mistakes and bad behavior). It accomplishes this by projecting nearly all bad feelings/thoughts onto you. Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, a BPDer usually is absolutely convinced that those hurtful thoughts/feelings are originating from you.

I have wondered if he has Oppositional Defiant Disorder as it appears to be his objective to be as difficult and pissy as possible.
No, ODD is a term that is only used to describe the behavior of children. Psychologists use ODD and "conduct disorder" to describe bad behavior in childhood because, given that a child's personality is still evolving, psychologists are loath to use PD terms (e.g., BPD, NPD, and ASPD) to describe anyone under the age of 18. Keep in mind that all of us behave like BPDers 24/7 throughout early childhood and many of us start behaving that way again for several years when our hormones are raging in our early teens.

Although most children exhibiting ODD do not develop BPD, a few small studies nonetheless have found a strong association between the two. A 2012 study, for example, concludes "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and ODD were the only child psychiatric disorders to predict BPD symptoms, and the oppositional behavioral dimension of ODD was particularly predictive of BPD. These results indicate possible developmental links between early psychiatric disorders and BPD." See J Abnorm Child Psych 2012 Study.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
What I found was that responding to a situation as if all other things are 'normal' doesn't work. A BPD person is extraordinarily emotionally immature. They don't respond appropriately or even rationally. You could point this out and draw on examples they are well aware of, then find your self in the middle of an exhaustive defense of your own actions only to be confronted by an additional emotional outburst ....about something completely unrelated. ....then you go into exhaustive rational response to issue #2. Nevermind you're still screwed. BPD 2 Idyit 0
Wow. This is my life. I feel your pain.

Our 20 year marriage will end within the next 6 months. This saddens me. Hurts to even type it 'out loud'. But I know that I can never be enough for her. Cannot overcome what afflicts her. As our therapist said he believes that, "She will never be able to truly accept love from you and will likewise never be able to show you love." For now I've learned how to keep relative peace. I will love on her how I can while preparing our household for the next step.
I wish you peace Idyit on your journey. Clearly you gave it your all.

My best advice to you is to come to peace with your relationship. This goal can be met with a quick exit, delayed after educating and attempt at improving the relationship or a joint reforming of the marriage. All of these are valid choices. In any case, do look into what may be the underlying issues with your husband. Learning why, how, what to do etc. can be very freeing and peaceful.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. It helps me a lot.

Likewise, I spent a small fortune sending my BPDer exW to six different psychologists for weekly sessions for 15 years. And we saw 3 MCs. None of it made a dent in her bad behavior. Not one dent.
Not One Dent. I get it.

The lying is much more characteristic of NPD than BPD. My experience is that, although a BPDer will lie to avoid humiliation, he generally tries to avoid it. A BPDer is filled with so much self loathing and guilt that the last thing he wants to do is one more thing that adds to that guilt.

More importantly, a BPDer usually has no need to lie because he is so heavily reliant on projection. His subconscious works 24/7 protecting his fragile ego from seeing too much of reality (i.e., from seeing his own mistakes and bad behavior). It accomplishes this by projecting nearly all bad feelings/thoughts onto you. Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, a BPDer usually is absolutely convinced that those hurtful thoughts/feelings are originating from you.

No, ODD is a term that is only used to describe the behavior of children. Psychologists use ODD and "conduct disorder" to describe bad behavior in childhood because, given that a child's personality is still evolving, psychologists are loath to use PD terms (e.g., BPD, NPD, and ASPD) to describe anyone under the age of 18. Keep in mind that all of us behave like BPDers 24/7 throughout early childhood and many of us start behaving that way again for several years when our hormones are raging in our early teens.

Although most children exhibiting ODD do not develop BPD, a few small studies nonetheless have found a strong association between the two. A 2012 study, for example, concludes "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and ODD were the only child psychiatric disorders to predict BPD symptoms, and the oppositional behavioral dimension of ODD was particularly predictive of BPD. These results indicate possible developmental links between early psychiatric disorders and BPD.


Uptown, your knowledge is extensive and no doubt the result of wracking your brains to seek and understand why your efforts garnered little results. At least that is how feel...if I could just understand what was happening maybe......

Certainly you did all that was reasonable and more to preserve your marriage and your sharing here helps others find their way...so thank you so much.
 

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Wow, so I see you have met both of my ex husbands.

Your H is a professional passive aggressive. I am very glad to read that you are separated, now you need to move onto divorce. You have been married a very long time, and you are entitled to half of EVERYTHING. I dont know how long you have been injured or the nature of it, but between what you would be paid through the divorce, and either a part time job or disability, I have no doubt you would be able to make it on your own.

If you hear nothing else I say, hear this... THEY DONT CHANGE. You may be able to find coping mechanisms to help you put up with his sh!t, but you are way better off to get out. This is no way to live, and you have already allowed him to waste entirely too much of your precious life. He will not change, ever. He sees no need to, and any promises he would make regarding such would be LIES to keep you in place.

Find yourself an attorney and file for divorce.
 

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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
Wow, so I see you have met both of my ex husbands.

Your H is a professional passive aggressive. I am very glad to read that you are separated, now you need to move onto divorce. You have been married a very long time, and you are entitled to half of EVERYTHING. I dont know how long you have been injured or the nature of it, but between what you would be paid through the divorce, and either a part time job or disability, I have no doubt you would be able to make it on your own.

If you hear nothing else I say, hear this... THEY DONT CHANGE. You may be able to find coping mechanisms to help you put up with his sh!t, but you are way better off to get out. This is no way to live, and you have already allowed him to waste entirely too much of your precious life. He will not change, ever. He sees no need to, and any promises he would make regarding such would be LIES to keep you in place.

Find yourself an attorney and file for divorce.
Yes, 3xnocharm he is a professional entitled passive aggressive who is vindictive and hates to lose. I now "get" that there will be no change. I also realize that there is no depth to which he won't go to disparage me and his insistence on "winning" at all costs leaves me in a predicament. If he knows I plan to divorce him he will wage warfare with no holds barred for many reasons not the least that he exaggerates his contributions to our lifestyle while treating me like a useless scoundrel who contributes nothing while he works like a dog(although there is no basis in fact for this belief and it could not be further than the truth.)

So I endured a marriage counselling session with him today to buy time until I can get financial particulars and proof so that when I proceed it will be from a position of proof instead of him panicking and draining accounts and screwing me out of all that I worked for and hiding documents that i will require. IMO, the law may be the law but the success of either party depends on the finesse of your lawyer the the mood of the judge on any given day.

The MC session was a farce as usual with him secure in his arrogance and superiority with complaints about me not realizing that my wants, needs or feelings are "little things" (his term) of minimal to no importance in the grand scheme of things whereas he gets to determine what is important because he can see "the big picture" and therefore he has ascertained that what is important is anything he says or wants or needs at any given time. Sweet Geez take me now!

Thanks for your support and I welcome any tips to survive the coming months of bs endurance while staying the course pursuing freedom and a new life without Mr. Perpetually Unhappy Because I Suck.
 

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You are on the right track for sure. Buying time to get the financial info is crucial. Just make sure he doesnt get wind of it, or he will make sure to hide everything. Copy EVERYTHING. Have a digital and a hard copy of all documents and make sure they are kept in a safe location. (safety deposit box comes to mind) If he does end up hiding everything, then you can hire forensic attorneys who will investigate, dig, and find everything he is hiding, and HE can pay their fees in the end.

Since you ARE separated, do you have any idea if he has started seeing anyone? If he does, you can use that as leverage too, that you will expose him far and wide unless he is transparent and agreeable to your terms of the divorce.

You might consider asking a mod to move your thread, you may get more responses in a higher traffic area of the forum, like Considering Divorce or Separation. Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
You are on the right track for sure. Buying time to get the financial info is crucial. Just make sure he doesnt get wind of it, or he will make sure to hide everything. Copy EVERYTHING. Have a digital and a hard copy of all documents and make sure they are kept in a safe location. (safety deposit box comes to mind) If he does end up hiding everything, then you can hire forensic attorneys who will investigate, dig, and find everything he is hiding, and HE can pay their fees in the end.

Since you ARE separated, do you have any idea if he has started seeing anyone? If he does, you can use that as leverage too, that you will expose him far and wide unless he is transparent and agreeable to your terms of the divorce.

You might consider asking a mod to move your thread, you may get more responses in a higher traffic area of the forum, like Considering Divorce or Separation. Just a thought.
3xnocharm, than you for your helpful advice. No I don't think he is seeing someone. If he was I'm sure he'd be nicer to me! Does anyone know where I can learn more or get a list of what information I need to get copies of? I have some ideas but maybe someone here from Canada may have some advice?
 

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Does anyone know where I can learn more or get a list of what information I need to get copies of?
Maso, the most complete list I've seen (for divorce preparation) is that provided in C3's lengthy 2012 post. Some of it likely will apply to your situation. I also recommend the book, Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist.
 

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3xnocharm, than you for your helpful advice. No I don't think he is seeing someone. If he was I'm sure he'd be nicer to me! Does anyone know where I can learn more or get a list of what information I need to get copies of? I have some ideas but maybe someone here from Canada may have some advice?
Anything pertaining to financials.. bank accounts, 401k, loan info, insurance, tax returns. Personal info, like social security, birth certificates, any licenses you might hold, passports. I'm sure there are websites that would have checklists for this kind of thing.
 

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dear topic starter

you are married to the same type as my husband
and we do live separately, and he does not understand that fact, still feeling entitled. :)
nothing works with these people
except separation and total self-respect
they learn hard way
whenever he is angry - walk away, don't argue
and don't feel responsible for his feelings and reactions.
Do your business, pursue your goals. He won't be happy because it takes you our of control. It's his problem, not yours.
Be independent, both emotionally and financially. This builds ultimate respect with your husband and the rest of the world.
Do sports, do your hobby, earn money, travel. Build your life without his support.
He will do everything to ruin it. Walk away (at least emotionally). Distance heals abusive relationship.
Once you are by your side and happy, he will suffer of loneliness. He will want back. I guarantee :) He will respect and love.
But you may not want him back. :)

P. S. I am Canadian too (although not Canadian born), there must be something in the water here that affects men's brains. :)
 

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Does anyone have any suggestions on standing your ground, detaching or setting boundaries? When we are together if he starts behaving as described above I don't react and I leave. He doesn't get it as he stews and thinks he is the injured party when he behaves like an ass to me. It's crazymaking.
You got it right. Setting boundaries is your issue. This is whole reason you got married this person.
 

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I am curious how things are for you, too, @Masodipstick. You could be me. I'm also 58 (as you were when you posted), had been with him 30+ years (still with him, unfortunately), don't understand 1) why I'm still with him and 2) why others understand how difficult leaving can be.

Obviously, despite his failings, I have my own, or I would've had the good sense to leave a long time ago.

I'm really interested to hear - good or bad -- what the result of you moving out was. Did you go back? Any change in his behavior? Did you stay out? Any change in your life?
 

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Well, personally, I'm never wrong.
One time I thought I had been wrong,
but, as it turned out,
I was mistaken.
 

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Yeah, I guess it was worth pinging this old thread, there is a lot of good advice in it,

The MC session was a farce as usual with him secure in his arrogance and superiority with complaints about me not realizing that my wants, needs or feelings are "little things" (his term) of minimal to no importance in the grand scheme of things whereas he gets to determine what is important because he can see "the big picture" and therefore he has ascertained that what is important is anything he says or wants or needs at any given time.
Any properly trained MC will have seen this many times, and should pick it up within 1 or at most 2 sessions. I always dread that session individually with the other partner where I have to tell them "this is not likely to get much better. It's your decision if you want to stay with him/her".
 
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