Talk About Marriage banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
137 Posts
In addition, he does lots around the house, always gives me my way (to the point of being enabling which has been detrimental to my health), agrees, and smiles, and stays silent a lot. To be honest, not the type of man I always dreamed of having for a life partner.
My thoughts are that you're being a little bit harsh to him, just based on what you've written, but of course it's impossible to tell based on a few paragraphs. (Why do women complain about their husbands giving them their own way? If it's not a good thing, why isn't your way something else? What do you want him to do?). He tried to give you a nice life and "protect" you, and he fell short. It's not the worst thing anyone has ever done.

He should be honest with you, and if your organisational skills are superior, you should have a frank discussion about you taking charge of such things, forevermore. A marriage should be a partnership, and you should play to your strengths, and never mind any of that stuff about husbands should do finances and the wife should look after the home, if you're better at it, you should do it.

And good for you on the sausage. All the best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Why do women complain about their husbands giving them their own way
Just full of love and compassion, aren't you?

First of all, don't lump me in with "all women" just to fit your stereotype. I don't like it, and I've talked with him about this, because it feels like there's no one there. I don't know where the man I married was. The person with ideas and opinions. The person who was full of spark! But the guilt of the debt weighed him down so much that he disappeared.

When he admitted (through my continual prodding) to the $52,000, he changed instantly and that's why we "reconnected."

Regardless, you obviously heard only the one side and I'm not interested in speaking about this with you further.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
44,506 Posts
Those are some pretty big lies. I'm not sure I could get beyond that.

How much of that debt was created before you two married?

Do you now have complete visibility of all his accounts? Have you run a credit check on him?

What are the laws where you live? Are you responsible legally to pay his debt? I wonder because in some places debts and assets only belong to the spouse whose name is on the account.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
No debt before we were married. Not until I started going to school. The only reason I'm forgiving him is because I think he just wanted to give me everything I wanted and got caught up in the snowball of it all. But the fact remains that he's weak and would never come forward voluntarily. It has negatively affected me and our daughter greatly in so many ways.

Now I have visibility of all the accounts and we're thinking of consolidating the debt in an account we're both responsible for. I would be assuming half of the responsibility legally.

He agrees the debt is his. However, if I stay with him, it really is ours.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
571 Posts
No debt before we were married. Not until I started going to school. The only reason I'm forgiving him is because I think he just wanted to give me everything I wanted and got caught up in the snowball of it all. But the fact remains that he's weak and would never come forward voluntarily. It has negatively affected me and our daughter greatly in so many ways.

Now I have visibility of all the accounts and we're thinking of consolidating the debt in an account we're both responsible for. I would be assuming half of the responsibility legally.

He agrees the debt is his. However, if I stay with him, it really is ours.
Wow, that much of a lie would be hard to overcome. When I married my wife, she confessed to how much debt she was carrying. Not as much as your husbands, but still a significant amount. It was almost the end right there, hard to comprehend how she could hold something like that back from our discussions. I had to trust in her in a lot of ways (more than money) to make changes that would improve her life, and consequently ours. It took a several years but she has come a long way in a lot of areas of her life. As opposed to your husband, she admitted it to me and assumed responsibility for her actions. She also took action to turn things around. I am not sure if you have it in you to deal with several more years of hoping your husband will change. He sounds like he could use some counseling to help him be more assertive & sure of himself, deal with accepting his actions in all this, and learn some emotional support techniques to be there for you.

My wife is nearly debt free, has been sober for over 4 years, and just started a great new (higher paying) job. So there can be hope.

In response to your quote, any debt incurred during the marriage is assumed to be marital debt and would be divided accordingly during divorce. Unless of course one party fully accepted it on their own.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
What kind of action did your wife take to turn it around? I'm having a hard time telling if I'm being realistic about my husband's action taking in this situation. Especially after the whole anniversary flop. He's putting some stuff on Ebay and applied for (or at least looked up) some additional income opportunities. He's applied for a new lower interest loan. I have yet to see a budget or any actual money come in.

"He sounds like he could use some counseling to help him be more assertive & sure of himself, deal with accepting his actions in all this, and learn some emotional support techniques to be there for you. "

That is bang on the money. Thanks so much for listening. I truly appreciate it. He wouldn't make the move to go to counselling on his own before. Now, he says he's looked up counselors. I'm not going to badger him to go. He has to make the decision to do it on his own. And if he doesn't, I'm sure I'll be filing for divorce.

I know the debt is legally ours. He has a tremendous amount of guilt about all this and is claiming it all as his own. He wouldn't do that to me (make me legally responsible for it). And I wouldn't let him just deal with it on his own if it came down to us splitting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Some of your story sounds exactly like my life. Some of it sounds like where my DH and I might have ended up if I hadn't demanded financial control and transparency throughout our relationship...

I'm new here and deflated.

My husband is a weak guy. It takes him more times than I'm comfortable with to learn new things. He likes to say "sorry" a lot but things don't actually change.

3 years ago, I started working through some things in my mind and came to wonder if we could afford all the things we were doing ... I believed him. Mostly.

....

My husband does not look to the future. He does not dream or plan. He has no aspirations. He is struggling in our marriage and does not have a lot of energy to reach for more. So he says. I also struggle tremendously in our marriage and I'm still planning our finances and investments, our (have become my) physical health goals, thoughts of more family, moving, travel, etc. But everyone is different.

In addition, my husband isn't there for me emotionally. He responds to me waking up sad (a common occurrence), by saying he'll take care of things today and exiting. Which leaves me by myself. Every.Single.Time. In addition, he does lots around the house, always gives me my way (to the point of being enabling which has been detrimental to my health), agrees, and smiles, and stays silent a lot. To be honest, not the type of man I always dreamed of having for a life partner. I know I can't change someone, so instead I've just emotionally separated. I plan my own things now and do things on my own. I'm growing without him.

I've never quite trusted him about money after that. I mean, I did, enough not to check up, but there was always a nagging feeling in my gut which I addressed several times with him.

"Can you pay for XXX?", I can pay", "are you sure you're ok?", "what's in your account right now?" etc...

The answer was usually yes.

...

He eventually came home and admitted to a $52,000 debt that he's been hiding from me for 5 YEARS. Without a single clue. He let me go on about buying a bigger house, looking at the listings night after night with me. He let me suggest going out one to two times a week, etc.....so many lies, in 5 years, leading me to believe we were ok and that we could continue as we were.

I feel he took so much away from me...

...

And I am left to comfort myself yet again.

...

So, for our 7 year anniversary, I got to have my feelings ignored by him, work all day to pay off his debt, and then be rewarded by a meal HE would like, not me. So done with his self-centered ways. :crying:

I know I have my part in it. I know the negative things I bring to the table. I openly admit them (do you really, though?) and we speak about them quite a lot. So, there's always two sides.

I'm just done with feeling like I don't deserve to be treated better than this. He doesn't see me. He doesn't have a clue how to take care of me in the way I need. He doesn't know how to partner with someone.
Your marriage reminds me a lot of my marriage. For example, I've gained a lot of weight since I met my husband. My DH likes to take me out to eat, he likes to spend quality time with me over meals, and I like doing that with him too. I also like the lure of greasy fast food delivered to my braless, lazy bum on the couch on demand. My love languages are gifts and acts of service, so this fills both of my "feeling loved" meters up entirely! But, I also gained weight at the rate of 10lbs+ per year, and being intimate with my husband became more difficult between my lack of fitness and my changing body. So, suddenly, it became DH's fault. Man, he made me so fat, agreeing to bring me all of this food. Is he actively trying to kill me slowly? Is he just trying to get me all gross and out of shape so I'll never leave? And, look at all the money we've spent on fast food! That's thousands of dollars! DH is so irresponsible with money, and impulsive, he's even got ME out of control! This would have never happened to me if I were on my own. (Spoiler alert - I spent $800 on delivery sushi in January, which I ate all by myself during a marital separation. Oops.)

At first, I tried to explain to my husband not to bring me garbage food whenever I ask for it. Because it's bad for me and makes me unhappy. Don't bring it to me no matter how many times I ask for it, or how angry I get, or how much you want to. Don't feed me. This did not work, of course, as it was essentially asking my DH not to communicate his love for me in the way I'd taught him was most effective. When DH did a "good job" of not delivering me junk food, I was grateful but felt lonely and unloved, eventually resentful. When DH did a "poor job" and we both broke down and wanted fast food, I felt closer to him, but I ended up angry and resentful again. I felt out of control, and I was constantly asking DH to excuse or control my behavior, by basically asking him to act as my parent and make the hard decisions for me.

It took 8-10 months of this cycle, and several large marital fights, for me to realize this was never going to work. I still wasn't taking responsibility for my actions. The reality is that I asked for chicken sandwiches, extra large pizzas, cases of Monster and three people's worth of Taco Bell all to myself. I decided what to order off the menu, and how much of our money I wanted to spend on myself. I decided what to put in my mouth, and how much of it to eat. I decided not to exercise more, to the point of requiring physical therapy due to literally too much sitting around. I decided. These were my actions. The blame I felt for DH was misplaced shame and disappointment I felt in myself. After several conversations about it, DH and I have finally agreed not to eat together or even grocery shop together, since I am too likely to beg for enabling, and it's really unfair to ask DH to be my parent instead of my partner. In the mean time, I am working with my psychologist to better understand my tendency for overeating/food aggression.

I know you threw shade at Vauxhall, but I'm going to repeat it again: It sounds like your husband has worked very hard to provide you with the best life he can (or thought he could,) and worked hard to give you everything you asked for. You kept asking for bigger and better stuff - a house, dinners out, a baby, another baby, etc - and he kept saying yes, because he loves you, he hears you when you tell him what will make you happy, and he wants you to be happy. Now he's hearing that he doesn't make you happy, loud and clear, so he's emotionally distant and unable to be present in the relationship - because, maybe that will make you happy?

It sounds like you had early suspicions that your husband was overspending on your behalf, and there might be debt out there. But, you were living a fat and happy life. You never sat down and actually did the math, you just turned a blind eye and continued to ask for more from your husband. And your husband gave it to you. He gave it to you so much he was enabling you to not do things or get things for yourself. And your not doing stuff for yourself worsened your health, or made you sick. That's somehow his fault, though. How dare he be such a good house husband AND working father AND take you on expensive dates AND let you shop for bigger houses AND let you get pregnant even though there's debt! How dare he "let you." Because, it's his job to control your actions? It's his job to be your parent, and tell you what you can and can't do? It's his job to do all the thinking and decision making, to exclusively decide when steak dinners are ok, to exclusively decide what neighborhoods are and aren't affordable, while you get to play at school and parenthood and homeownership?

I know you say in your post that you know you have your part in this. But, from your overall post, it sounds like you really have not taken ownership over your wants/needs/desires/actions and their consequences in this marriage. It sounds like you are just as culpable in the small and large financial decisions that grew this debt, especially as you said DH did not have a debt problem before marriage. If you don't take ownership over these things, if you continue to force your husband into the "parent" role in your marriage (or continue forward with a lack of trust that leaves you in the "parent" role in the marriage far too often,) you're doomed. Your marriage has to be a partnership - you can't be forcing your husband to parent you by telling you when things aren't affordable or whatever, and you also can't be forcing your husband to be parented by you as you fix his debt mistakes or whatever. You're an adult, it's your job to take care of yourself.

It's probably a good idea to seek individual counseling, and based on the amount of contempt for your husband I sense from your posting here, probably also marriage counseling.

Best of luck to you,
Kayla
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
44,506 Posts
If the laws where you live are that did debt is his legally his debt alone, I think you would be making a mistake adding your name to his debt.

One of my major concerns here is that he thought you were going to leave him over this debt, to he left the house and called you to talk about it. Basically I'm concerned that at some time he's not going to be able to handle this and he will walk away from you. If your name is on that debt, you will end up having to pay he. He's clearly not able to that on his own.

You can still work together to get him out of debt without you putting your name on the debt.

He does work for a living, right? Could he find a higher paying job?

He needs to learn to talk to you about things before they become a problem. The two of you also need deal with his way of handling thing.. leaving you alone.

Have you considered insisting that in order for you to help with his debt, you take over all the finances in your relationship. There is no reason why he should be doing this if he is lousy at it. To make your marriage strong, each of you should take over tasks based on your individual strengths.

You are still waiting for a budget from him? That's my point. Why aren't you in there working on the budget. The two of you working together? It's like you think his finances are his domain so you have to wait for him to do things. Well, if his finances are his domain, then you don't help pay his debt. You need to insist on 100% transparency and that you are 100% involved in his finances if you are going to help pay his debt. And if I were you, since you are more organized than he, I'd insist that I take it over with the caveat that he be kept in the loop every step of the way.

There are some books that I think might help you:

This one teaches a very good way to structure your finances so that you get out of debt, save a lot and still have enough money to enjoy life.

Smart Couples Finish Rich: 9 Steps to Creating a Rich Future for You and Your Partner by David Bach


The other two books are for the two of you to learn to talk to each other and structure your marriage in way that is emotionally healthy and maintains your love for each other by meeting each other's needs. It could go a long way to help him talk about things with you. The books are: "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" - seen the links in my signature block below.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,922 Posts
I'm new here and deflated.

My husband is a weak guy. It takes him more times than I'm comfortable with to learn new things. He likes to say "sorry" a lot but things don't actually change.

3 years ago, I started working through some things in my mind and came to wonder if we could afford all the things we were doing (paying mortgage, insurance, for two cars, eating out etc.) with his salary alone. I had just finished school. He promised me he could pay for it but I suspected something and told him he better tell me the truth or we're done. He said he had a debt he was carrying. I asked how much. $8000. I urged further and said, "are you sure?" and more prodding. He said, "ok, it's $10,000. I was shocked because a) he lied, and b) I HAVE MONEY. Like, quite a bit. I came into the relationship with it and always asked him if he could pay, because if not, I could. My money was making more for us in investments but I always said I could pay for things or we would just budget differently. After more prodding, he said $11,000.



There are a few things:






Totally honestly, and my husband would tell you without and hesitation, that his organizational skills are horrible to nil. Just trust me on that, I'm not going to go into detail except to add that it really hurts the security and growth of our family and our relationship.

I feel it would be a good idea here to tell you that I am 7 years older than him. I'm not an anal person or super organized myself, by any means, but I do keep a realistic set of standards that still aim for higher and allow me to reach for something and grow.

My husband does not look to the future. He does not dream or plan. He has no aspirations. He is struggling in our marriage and does not have a lot of energy to reach for more. So he says. I also struggle tremendously in our marriage and I'm still planning our finances and investments, our (have become my) physical health goals, thoughts of more family, moving, travel, etc. But everyone is different.

In addition, my husband isn't there for me emotionally. He responds to me waking up sad (a common occurrence), by saying he'll take care of things today and exiting. Which leaves me by myself. Every.Single.Time.

In addition, he does lots around the house, always gives me my way (to the point of being enabling which has been detrimental to my health), agrees, and smiles, and stays silent a lot. To be honest, not the type of man I always dreamed of having for a life partner.

I know I can't change someone, so instead I've just emotionally separated. I plan my own things now and do things on my own. I'm growing without him.

I've never quite trusted him about money after that. I mean, I did, enough not to check up, but there was always a nagging feeling in my gut which I addressed several times with him.

"Can you pay for XXX?", I can pay", "are you sure you're ok?", "what's in your account right now?" etc...

The answer was usually yes.

Fast forward three years.

A letter from the bank to him came in the mail. I opened it and held in my hand, not looking at it. I could see the blood drain from his face. I asked him if I could look at it. He said, "as a matter of principle," no. I expressed my massive skepticism but respected his legal right to his own mail and gave it to him. He wouldn't tell me what was on it. He later snuck downstairs and shredded it. I knew that's what he was doing when he was doing it.

I got extremely upset with him and told him our marriage would be over if he didn't tell me, and he finally confessed that his interest rate on his loans went up.

I didn't believe it but again, he swore up and down and I looked in his eyes and believed they were honest.

Still, I gave him a couple days to show me his bank statements.

He didn't. Until one night I completely changed and went from being lighthearted to irritable and cold. He knew what I was waiting for. He said I would have it tonight.

I put the kid to bed and went to the room that had become just mine. He asked me to call him. I wondered where he was because I thought he was in "his" room. We had been divided since the birth of our baby three years earlier. He lets his alarm go off over and over again in the morning before I have to wake up, which I feel is completely insensitive, especially through my schooling and having young baby who wakes me through the night.

Since, he wasn't just in his room, I felt scared. I know he is terrified to lose me and his family. He says he still loves me.

He wanted to talk. I couldn't at that moment. He didn't say much of anything but I thought he might be in danger of hurting himself because I knew deep down, he was lying to me. I urged him to come back and I would respond without anger and we would move forward.

And that's what happened.

He eventually came home and admitted to a $52,000 debt that he's been hiding from me for 5 YEARS. Without a single clue. He let me go on about buying a bigger house, looking at the listings night after night with me. He let me suggest going out one to two times a week, etc.....so many lies, in 5 years, leading me to believe we were ok and that we could continue as we were.

I feel he took so much away from me, including the option of having another child. I feel now, with the debt, that it's not a smart thing to do. I'm older and the eggs aren't as "fresh" as they used to be. I'm devastated.

I got angry with him for a few minutes and gave him a few choice words. And then I sat down with him and figured out a way out. A plan that included me.

I didn't kick him out as he was so terrified would happen.

He said I was amazing. I instantly saw him go from an afraid little boy, to someone who could move forward and make some changes. I was thrilled! We started having physical intimacy again. Things were going good, it seemed.

But, I was still having times of depression. I was still dealing with all the things that had gone on. And again, he reacted to me saying I was sad by being silent and saying he would leave with my daughter so I could have alone time. And I am left to comfort myself yet again.

And then the same type of thing happened today. We spoke about my feeling down, he understood, I kissed and hugged him and had to explain what I needed yet again. He sort of came through and ended with saying how he was going to cook something really special for dinner for me because I reminded him it was our anniversary.

Now, since the day he told me, I have gotten up out of bed (even though I really didn't want to) and gotten straight to work each day, into the night, to help pay this thing off. He makes supper. Today, he was making something special for me!

Dinner was wild rice, cooked carrots, and sausage.

Sausage.

I've made it no secret that I don't like sausage at all! I'm actually a previous vegan and vegetarian so I try to eat non-animal products as much as possible. And if there's any meat I don't like eating, it's sausage! I've even asked him not to bring it into the house.

So, for our 7 year anniversary, I got to have my feelings ignored by him, work all day to pay off his debt, and then be rewarded by a meal HE would like, not me. So done with his self-centered ways. :crying:

I know I have my part in it. I know the negative things I bring to the table. I openly admit them and we speak about them quite a lot. So, there's always two sides.

I'm just done with feeling like I don't deserve to be treated better than this. He doesn't see me. He doesn't have a clue how to take care of me in the way I need. He doesn't know how to partner with someone.

I think I'm done.

Thoughts? :crying:
1. YOU have neutered your husband, quizzing him about money, making him hide, etc, Men like to have respect, it is like a slow death for a man not to be respected in this regard by his wife and family.
From what you wrote it sounds like you Lord it over him, you treat him like a child, instead of sitting down and saying let us do this together.
He sounds scared of you that is why he will not open up and tell you the truth, he just keeps you happy, to keep the peace

YOU shut off intimacy because it didn't suit your sleep pattern, you have basically, neutered this man, I do not know whether to feel sorry for him or for you.

2. He married an older woman, maybe he wanted a mother and not a wife.

If my husband cooked me anything, I would be very happy;.I think you are resentful, because you wanted a man who would take charge and lead his family, but didn't you know who he was when you married?
Sadly he cannot be honest with you because you talk down to him. He is the problem and you are the creator of solutions, (you speak like this).

Maybe if you would respect him more, he would grow into the role you want him to fill.

You take charge and act like the man in the marriage yet expect to be treated like the woman. I honestly think lying is bad but I can see why he does it, he is scared of your disapproval.

This is not way for a man to live, I think you would both benefit from MC, explore His Needs/Her Needs, explore how to communicate openly and without judgement. Even as you write here you are full of accusation and judgement. I am sure you let him know regularly that he is failing as a husband?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
"It sounds like your husband has worked very hard to provide you with the best life he can (or thought he could,) and worked hard to give you everything you asked for. You kept asking for bigger and better stuff - a house, dinners out, a baby, another baby, etc - and he kept saying yes, because he loves you, he hears you when you tell him what will make you happy, and he wants you to be happy."

You would be surprised how LITTLE I ask for. My husband agrees and mentions it often. He's surprised too. I have an environmentalist/lazy minimalist mindset. I DO NOT need a lot of things. HE didn't want to ask me for the money he needed to pay for things. I PAID for almost everything in the house. I know he wanted to keep me happy. That's fine and dandy until it RUINS OUR LIVES with $52,000 in debt. And he lets it! For 5 years. Think about that.

"suspicions that your husband was overspending on your behalf"

All he had to do was pay some bills and he volunteered the rest. All he had to do was man up and tell me I needed to pay more. Problem solved. I offered MULTIPLE times through the marriage. Not much more I can do. I even gave him cash gifts for holidays, sensing he was strapped. I tried to elevate the pressure, he would not allow me. And yes, I have resentment towards that because it is severely impacting our lives because he was LYING to himself and to me! I'm not going to argue with you about it when HE fully admits it.

"How dare he be such a good house husband AND working father AND take you on expensive dates AND let you shop for bigger houses AND let you get pregnant even though there's debt! How dare he "let you." Because, it's his job to control your actions? "

Um...ok. You obviously are missing the deceit part of it. I was living with one understanding while he was presenting another reality. That's flat out abusive. I've lived in a lie for 5 years. He dug us in a gigantic hole. I gave him many outs/lifelines. He refused to grab hold because he had already done the "bad thing" and let debt pile up. He was too scared to come clean and thought he could handle it on his own. His words, not mine. He LET ME through being deceitful. What am I supposed to do? Make him tell me?

Do people who come to these forums realize how devastated and at the end of the rope people have to be to come here and post? Do they not realize all the parts that are unable to be said in a single post? We're talking 7 years of "stuff." This is why people should go to counselors and not forums. Sheesh!

"force your husband into the "parent" role in your marriage"

LOL. I'm sorry, but you are so off base. It is SO the other way around.

As for my role in this, refer to my post...REALLY long. I'm not insecure about how much or often or how much responsibility I take. I understand, you don't know me but you should try to hold your assumptions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,330 Posts
If you have money, start paying half the bills so he can pay down his debt. Or pay it all off, but it'd be better if he felt the accomplishment of doing it himself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
"If the laws where you live are that did debt is his legally his debt alone, I think you would be making a mistake adding your name to his debt."

That's my fear.


"He does work for a living, right? Could he find a higher paying job?"

He's "talking" about it. But he says a lot of things that don't happen so I'm not counting on it.


"You are still waiting for a budget from him? "

How can he learn about money and his own limitations if he doesn't do his own budget. I already budgeted out his salary for him to pay off the debt. To which (for those that think I'm controlling) he was very thankful and said helped save his life. He is a grown man and he will feel pride in taking control of his affairs on his own rather than me looking over his shoulder. Also, I'm extremely busy with my own stuff. He has to be able to do it on his own.

Thanks for the book recommendations. I'll look into them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
In regards to aine's statements:

Speaking of being judgmental and full of accusations... Funny, my husband doesn't feel like you. But what does he know. He's only lived with me for our entire marriage. I AM lucky that he does claim responsibility for his shortcomings, as do I. In that regard, it seems we are in an uncommon boat.

Ok. Thanks to those who tried to offer help. It's clear now why forums are a bad idea when dealing with personal issues.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top