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Discussion Starter · #61 ·
Covert contracts = bad.
Covert compliments = good.

😆

In fact, the more “covertly” you can deliver your wife a compliment- the better it is received. If you say “love the new shirt” in the split second you see it- much better than the calculated, rehearsed compliment. Wives are crazy smart about intent.
LOVE THIS!

:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.
Interestingly enough in the book I just read, "Why Women Have Sex" it did claim that someone has to lose in order for the other to win pleasurably. At its core sexuality is relentlessly competitive. Competition is the birthplace of self development. Self development is critical for survival.

Many psychology books that I have read also tend to suggest that deriving sexual pleasure fails to combine with the dynamics of everything being comfortable, familiar, routine, and following a set of clearly defined rules.
 

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You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.
If you say so! 😀
 

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Interestingly enough in the book I just read, "Why Women Have Sex" it did claim that someone has to lose in order for the other to win pleasurably. At its core sexuality is relentlessly competitive. Competition is the birthplace of self development. Self development is critical for survival.

Many psychology books that I have read also tend to suggest that deriving sexual pleasure fails to combine with the dynamics of everything being comfortable, familiar, routine, and following a set of clearly defined rules.
Blah blah blah, women are just here for you to use. Got it.
 

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You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.
MODERATOR WARNING:- Quit making things up. The only moderation that has taken place was when individual posts have broken the rules.
 

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There you have it guys, tell her whatever lies you want, get her into bed and you never have to speak to her again.
You do make some very, very good posts and I can tell you are passionate about the topics, but you can also go off the deep end very quickly.

Not all manipulation is coercion, sometimes it is just persuading someone to see your way, through artful manipulation as in the definition @Mr. Nail provided. Are pick up lines and other initiation methods that contain no lies coercion or persuasion? I don't think anyone here is advocating lies to get what you want out of your spouse. But if they are failing to see things your way you have to persuade (a kind of manipulation) them to see it your way. As a spouse, you should only be persuading them to do things that you believe will benefit them and the marriage. Isn't it a good thing that @badsanta figured out a way to get his wife to believe she is as beautiful as he believes she is? Even if it was done through what some may call manipulation?
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
Isn't it a good thing that @badsanta figured out a way to get his wife to believe she is as beautiful as he believes she is? Even if it was done through what some may call manipulation?
I'm finding myself drawn to what @CatholicDad said:

Covert contracts = Bad
Covert compliments = Good

But my mind is really going into the gutter so to speak on clever ways to give my wife covert compliments. I think I need to up my game on covert compliments and work on that.

An example of how I traditionally do this might be complaining to my wife that I am not in the mood. Then I'll allow her to quickly prove me wrong and that I was lying. She giggles when I do that!

Badsanta
 

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I'm finding myself drawn to what @CatholicDad said:

Covert contracts = Bad
Covert compliments = Good

But my mind is really going into the gutter so to speak on clever ways to give my wife covert compliments. I think I need to up my game on covert compliments and work on that.

An example of how I traditionally do this might be complaining to my wife that I am not in the mood. Then I'll allow her to quickly prove me wrong and that I was lying. She giggles when I do that!

Badsanta
I compliment W regularly, not just looks but all life components.
Including her derriere and nether regions. 👍👍👍
 

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You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.
There are chunks of this thread missing otherwise I might have some input.

I do agree a wife's feelings are important.
 

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You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.
I'm a little confused, maybe I missed others' posts. I'm not lying to W on whatever, whenever I want to be physically intimate, and I didn't see others saying yep I lie to have sex with their Ws.

And no one said their Ws feelings aren't important as I bolded above.

Did I miss someone saying so?
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
There are chunks of this thread missing otherwise I might have some input.

I do agree a wife's feelings are important.
Much of her posts were arguing that anything with good intentions to make someone honestly know that they are beautiful is NOT being manipulation. Then there was a debate that the use of the word manipulation can only be associated with wicked acts of lying and deceiving someone in order to get what you want. Things went off the rails very quick and she compared manipulation by using lies to falsely making a woman feel good about herself in order to get more sex to being on par with why not just rape her if you want more sex. Well, to some extend I imagine when women convince themselves they were manipulated and used sexually that it does feel violating.

I'm certain that everyone here agrees that how a woman feels about herself is important @ConanHub so no one is denying that. However in my opinion it is low self esteem and lack of self confidence is what likely causes women to feel used and unable to stop that feeling from reoccurring. Is there a way to break that cycle? When a woman lies to herself and tells herself she is ugly, it can be downright impossible to convince her otherwise.

This is why I think the idea of covert compliments are fascinating. A wife gets to validate that a lie has been told or a false accusation has been made! But in doing so she has to prove she is beautiful. Now perhaps @CatholicDad and I are not thinking the same about covert compliments, but our intentions are the same. But the idea is to awkwardly force a compliment onto our wives and enjoy her feeling good about herself.

A possible example of a covert compliment. I'll ask my wife since she is not attractive if she ever had a hard time finding boyfriends when she was single. I know for a fact that my wife grew up with many men constantly asking her out (even some asking to marry) and all she had to do was take her pick on which one she liked the most. Never in her life has she been interested in someone and been rejected. Faced with those facts she can get upset with me for asking her that and start claiming that she never had problems getting anyone she wanted. Essentially she proves that she is beautiful.
 

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Much of her posts were arguing that anything with good intentions to make someone honestly know that they are beautiful is NOT being manipulation. Then there was a debate that the use of the word manipulation can only be associated with wicked acts of lying and deceiving someone in order to get what you want. Things went off the rails very quick and she compared manipulation by using lies to falsely making a woman feel good about herself in order to get more sex to being on par with why not just rape her if you want more sex. Well, to some extend I imagine when women convince themselves they were manipulated and used sexually that it does feel violating.

I'm certain that everyone here agrees that how a woman feels about herself is important @ConanHub so no one is denying that. However in my opinion it is low self esteem and lack of self confidence is what likely causes women to feel used and unable to stop that feeling from reoccurring. Is there a way to break that cycle? When a woman lies to herself and tells herself she is ugly, it can be downright impossible to convince her otherwise.

This is why I think the idea of covert compliments are fascinating. A wife gets to validate that a lie has been told or a false accusation has been made! But in doing so she has to prove she is beautiful. Now perhaps @CatholicDad and I are not thinking the same about covert compliments, but our intentions are the same. But the idea is to awkwardly force a compliment onto our wives and enjoy her feeling good about herself.

A possible example of a covert compliment. I'll ask my wife since she is not attractive if she ever had a hard time finding boyfriends when she was single. I know for a fact that my wife grew up with many men constantly asking her out (even some asking to marry) and all she had to do was take her pick on which one she liked the most. Never in her life has she been interested in someone and been rejected. Faced with those facts she can get upset with me for asking her that and start claiming that she never had problems getting anyone she wanted. Essentially she proves that she is beautiful.
Thanks for the breakdown!
 

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A possible example of a covert compliment. I'll ask my wife since she is not attractive if she ever had a hard time finding boyfriends when she was single. I know for a fact that my wife grew up with many men constantly asking her out (even some asking to marry) and all she had to do was take her pick on which one she liked the most. Never in her life has she been interested in someone and been rejected. Faced with those facts she can get upset with me for asking her that and start claiming that she never had problems getting anyone she wanted. Essentially she proves that she is beautiful.
the simple fact is, a LOT of women (not all) have body image issues as they age.
they start wondering "am i still hot for my husband? He can not possibly be turned on by me!"

So, hitting on your wife is NOT some way of tricking her into getting laid. for some of us, it is a way to get her to think of her self in sexy terms again.

If she thinks she is sexy, she will act sexy, and your sex life will logically improve.
 

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I learned at the tender age of 14 that intent is ethereal and impossible to prove. Long story short It turned a felony into a misdemeanor.
The problem here is that Badsanta the OP on this thread defined manipulation as the artful playing of another person. And, TexasMom1216 keep insisting on it being the insidious playing on of another person. They are Both right.
It is ok to manipulate a person if your intent is approved (I'm having trouble with the term good here because the level of approved is all over the place) Bad santa is not suggesting insidious or even deceitful playing, but, his intent is clearly more frequent sex. Despite the broadly accepted fact that frequent sex improves marriages, She's still lost it thinks frequent sex is somehow insidious.

Now If I want more frequent sex I have to go to definition 1 and physically manipulate Mrs. Nail's back and shoulders and often feet. I still do this even though she doesn't love me.
For me the heart of the matter to this post is what is in the heart of the person that is trying to "manipulate" their spouse. Artfully playing with someone doesn't give me an insight into what is in that person's heart.

Bad Santa has pointed out in other threads that some women have "responsive desire." That is they normally don't think about sex, but if something causes them to think about sex and get slightly turned on, then it quickly becomes "game on." In this kind of relationships, date nights, watching sexy Netflix movies, having candle lit dinners, etc. can be either seen as being romantic, trying to get your partner to have sexual relations, or just being a good partner. Based on past posts, this seems to be part of the dynamic in Bad Santa's relationship.

One could even expand this to who initiates sex? Is the person initiating sex trying to manipulate their partner?

From my perspective sex is about "making love" and emotional and physical connection. The release of various feel good hormones during sexual intercourse can produce feelings of euphoria and emotional bonding.

As Mr. Nail says, intent is everything (but nearly impossible to know.) That I see as the heart of this discussion. I think where the discussion went off the rails was the title of the post,
How to manipulate your spouse and get more sex!

I honestly believe that you can't force your partner to do anything that they don't want to do. If you try to force your partner to have sex and they really don't want to do it it is either or close to rape. Again it depends on the meaning of the words force, and "really don't want to." Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do is abusive.

Now let's go back to the title. If it were how to force your spouse and get more sex, we would probably condemn the concept. If the title were, how to work with your spouse and get more sex, we would probably mostly agree with the concept. If the title were how to negotiate with your spouse and get more sex, we would again mostly agree with the concept. If the title were how to initiate sex with your spouse, in an agreed upon way and get more sex, again we would probably mostly agree.

To me for "manipulate" to be a two-way agreement (negotiated?) then both people need to know that the intent is not to impose one persons will or desires upon the other, but that the other knows what is happening and can freely say yes or no. That means that the person doing the manipulating must have an intent that allows their spouse to freely say no fi they don't want.

Why I brought up covert contracts and NMMNG was because a covert contract is a form of attempting to get a partner to have sex, which usually does not work and is not a two-way meeting of the minds and bodies.

The heart of the spirited discussion is the meaning of "manipulate."


Next I have to question if it "is broadly accepted that frequent sex improves a marriage." I will go back to David Schnarch and his believe that everything in marriage is negotiated between the partners. There is no right amount of steak each week for dinner. There is no right amount of chocolate ice cream after dinner per week. There is not right amount of children for a marriage. There is not right amount of a child's allowance. There is no right amount of sex each week. There are all things that a couple must either explicitly or implicitly negotiate and agree upon, either by affirmative action or inactions.

In my HD/LD marriage, I am sure my LD wife might think that frequent sex could ruin a marriage, if "frequent" were some absolute number measured in multiple times per day. In fact, I am sure that there is a number of times per day that would horrify me (I don't want calluses or blisters down there).
 

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You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.
I hope this spirited discussion has not run you off or offended you too much.

Some of us have been in sex starved marriages where, before we knew better, would had done nearly anything to have gotten the sex and intimacy we felt we needed. Others have struggled with an LD/HD sex drive mismatch in our marriages. As such, I think that this thread and especially its title struck deep emotional feelings in some of us.

Good luck and your thoughts were appreciated by some of us.
 

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To play devil's advocate, manipulation doesn't mean lie in every case. There are cads who don't hesitate to lie if it suits their need. However many humans use the truth often enough when attempting to manipulate another from start to finish. Both sexes.

In many cases the truths are used like battering rams.
Other cases, like a velvet glove.
This is an interesting point and concept to consider. Most of us know what buttons to push to get our spouses in the mood. So does that mean intentionally pushing those buttons is a form of soft manipulation.

Or forget about sex related things. My wife is in sales and year end is often super stressful for her. I know how to manipulate her (for lack of a better word) to make her realize the world is not crashing around her. In this sense is the manipulation a positive thing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
Bad Santa has pointed out in other threads that some women have "responsive desire." That is they normally don't think about sex, but if something causes them to think about sex and get slightly turned on, then it quickly becomes "game on." In this kind of relationships, date nights, watching sexy Netflix movies, having candle lit dinners, etc. can be either seen as being romantic, trying to get your partner to have sexual relations, or just being a good partner. Based on past posts, this seems to be part of the dynamic in Bad Santa's relationship.
I my marriage if I tell my wife she is beautiful she doesn't believe me. If I tell her that I love her, she doesn't believe me. She often comments that, "love is not real as we are just two people stuck together and you need sex all the time!" Historically I used to get crushed by those comments. While working to improve my marriage to some extent one has to up their game and get creative in order to accomplish their agenda. Mine was to simply reconnect with my wife emotionally and physically in ways that we could celebrate our marriage and being together. After about fifteen years of being married, the quality of sex dwindled. It still happened but only because I insisted and put effort into it. Often she would push me away or tell me to hurry up and get done.

Getting back to the title of this thread, I chose it because that is what my wife has perpetually accused me of doing to her. Anything and everything nice I would do is because I wanted sex. She would get upset at me when I would initiate if I had been extra nice recently because she knew it in her heart that it was only for sex. Gosh this would make me so frustrated as I felt there was no way to win in terms of trying to make things any better and more bearable.

I didn't give up. As I do love my wife and love is worth fighting for.

Fast forward another decade and I have learned A LOT. Much of it is about perspective and self confidence. One has to also learn to read their spouse and not react to one's own self doubt. So this is me now in how I read my spouse:

I don't believe in love = I want to be reminded love is real

I don't believe I am beautiful = I want you to prove me wrong and that I am beautiful

I believe you are using me for sex = I need to feel you want me as a person

You would probably f*** any vagina but I happen to be the only one available = I need to be reminded what makes you only want to be with me

I am fat and overweight = I need your help taking care of my health so I can be my best for you

You are lazy and always in a bad mood = please take better care of yourself physically and emotionally so that you will be around for me to love you for many more years to come

So when I read my wife correctly, I often correct her and ask if she means the positive version of those comments above. She will always smile and claim that after all these years that I now know her. Then I'll 180 and ask if I can use her for sex. She will giggle and ask me if I am wanting regular or high octane which is our code words for certain things in the bedroom. Then I'll tell her that I don't love her and that I just want to get in her pants as much as possible until the end of time (which is a covert compliment!). She laughs and the sparks fly.

It is almost as if my wife enjoys role playing the bad version of our marriage as, "just tell me that you want to use me for sex so I can give you what you want as opposed to complaining about all this you want me to feel loved crap!" ...in a way that is actually loving and playful irony of making fun of our past struggles. Then I bring on my game and at some point her jaw drops and she says, "this is not fair that you you can do this to me" right as she is enjoying things the most.

I don't understand why she says, "it is not fair" once she responds and enjoys the moment. Perhaps it is because she still feels I enjoy using her for sex and she didn't anticipate that she too would enjoy it so much as well. In other words I won at my game of manipulating her and getting her into bed.

At one point during intense arguments and debates that were constructive, she did thank me for being pushy about physical intimacy. She said had I not been that she would have missed out on a lot of enjoyment in our marriage because that it is not in her nature to push for that.
 
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