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OK, we are quickly running out of things that manipulation can be.
Time for a reality check.
Definition of manipulate

transitive verb
1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner manipulate a pencil manipulate a machine
2a: to manage or utilize skillfully quantify our data and manipulate it statistically— S. L. Payne
b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage; being used and manipulated by the knowing men around him— New Republic
3: to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose : DOCTOR suspected that the police reports were manipulated— Evelyn G. Cruickshanks
For the purpose of this conversation we need to limit this to definition 2 b.
is there any objection to that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
You're misusing the word manipulation. Manipulation is defined as control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously. Trying to convince her she's beautiful is not manipulation. Words matter. Trying to convince her of something because you want her to feel better isn't manipulating her.
If I am completely honest and tell my wife she is beautiful, she flat out refuses to believe me. I do feel like I have to manipulate her into letting go of her low self esteem. It is NOT easy.

An example of such an effort is that I will compare her to a friend of hers that she thinks is more beautiful, I however will point out all of that persons flaws by comparing her to my wife from a male perception of beauty. I'll say, "imagine how much your friend Casandra would pay for breast augmentation surgery to have breasts as nice as yours!" My wife will then be like, "you really think so!" Then I'll play up my ability to be cheap and claim that it is awesome to be married to someone that already has wonderful breasts because I get them for free unlike someone else she knows that had a husband that refused to marry without breast augmentation surgery. Then my wife will look down at her boobs and claim that she saved me money and that I better give her what she wants and not complain about going out for dinner being expensive next time. I'll smile and tell her, "yes indeed!"

Now the above is horrible in my opinion! But it works! It makes my wife feel more confident about herself. I definitely feel like I had to manipulate that situation to get my wife to feel confident about her body.

Regards,
Badsanta
 

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I refuse to think of you being that kind of person!!! Lol!
I do have to admit, when in college, I was let's just say loose. But always remained good friends! Tbh if a hot girl was looking for a good time, I did let them take advantage of me. Would that be an early form of fwbs? 🤣🤣🤣
 

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I do have to admit, when in college, I was let's just say loose. But always remained good friends! Tbh if a hot girl was looking for a good time, I did let them take advantage of me. Would that be an early form of fwbs? 🤣🤣🤣
I guess so!!

It also shows that "hookup culture" was around long before this generation!
 

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No. He wanted her to feel as sexy as he thinks she is. He wasn't lying to her so he could get laid. At least that's not what it sounded like. If he was, that's manipulation. Is he telling her all of this and then laughing at her behind her back for believing him? Or is he genuinely trying to make her feel better about herself and wants her to feel sexy and be more confident and understand how sexy he thinks she is or was he just telling her what he had to tell her to get his rocks off and rolling his eyes that she was dumb enough to buy it? Intent matters.
I'd say he genuinely loves his W without reservation, absolutely no doubt there.
 

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I learned at the tender age of 14 that intent is ethereal and impossible to prove. Long story short It turned a felony into a misdemeanor.
The problem here is that Badsanta the OP on this thread defined manipulation as the artful playing of another person. And, TexasMom1216 keep insisting on it being the insidious playing on of another person. They are Both right.
It is ok to manipulate a person if your intent is approved (I'm having trouble with the term good here because the level of approved is all over the place) Bad santa is not suggesting insidious or even deceitful playing, but, his intent is clearly more frequent sex. Despite the broadly accepted fact that frequent sex improves marriages, She's still lost it thinks frequent sex is somehow insidious.

Now If I want more frequent sex I have to go to definition 1 and physically manipulate Mrs. Nail's back and shoulders and often feet. I still do this even though she doesn't love me.
 

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I have read No More Mr Nice Guy and I am aware of covert contracts and perhaps guilty of those in the past. I don't do that anymore. These days if I am in the mood for intimacy, I communicate that clearly and try as best I can to accommodate whatever my wife needs to help it be something we both share and enjoy. Primarily she mostly needs me NOT to disrupt her schedule of things that she wants to get done.

She however knows she overbooks herself and likely feel guilty and perhaps pressured to make more time for me. As a result when she thinks I should be upset and frustrated but she knows I am being nice, she accuses me of ONLY being nice because I want sex to happen soon. To me that is an insult and I have never been able to successfully defend myself against those remarks.

So these days I just validate her concerns and tell her she is too darn beautiful. I'll perhaps ask her to not dress up so nice to make it easier for me. She starts giggling and responds well to that. So that is how I roll with it these days!
Covert contracts = bad.
Covert compliments = good.

😆

In fact, the more “covertly” you can deliver your wife a compliment- the better it is received. If you say “love the new shirt” in the split second you see it- much better than the calculated, rehearsed compliment. Wives are crazy smart about intent.
 

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Why thank you for dismissing me as worthless, I've come to expect it. You can keep arguing with the original poster.
 

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Dear Texas Mom 1216,
I have never and will never refer to you as She's still lost it, That is a different person.
I mention this not as an excuse or as a reparation, just as a clarification.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Did Bad santa play upon his wife by artful means for his own advantage?
I think certain people think all forms of manipulation are inherently wicked. Ironically sexuality does not play by rules that are considered fair and democratic (to quote Esther Perel). So one has to be quick, clever, confident and witted in order to overcome emotional tension and barriers!

I could argue that women manipulate men into mostly sexless marriages because they are unwilling to confront their own low self confidence to get the courage to ask for what they want and feel deserving of it. That is not manipulation as for sure it is self sacrifice isn't it? Can't be. No...

Historically I have never known what to get my wife for Christmas. Since I have been working on her self confidence, this year I knew what she wanted for Christmas because she blatantly told me. I went out and spent twice what she had budgeted for this idea to get her what she wanted and to get her the nicer version of what she wanted. She has been so freaking happy with her gift. Historically she would have felt undeserving, never mentioned what she wanted, and basically ended up with nothing meaningful for her gift for the holidays.

Women reading this... Seriously ask yourself what you really wanted for Christmas and what it would take for you to feel deserving of it enough to ask for it? None of that playfully hinting around crap with shy giggles, but to actually say, "I want THIS. GO OUT AND GET IT FOR ME!" to your spouse in time for Christmas. A lot of women reading this probably didn't get that something that the daydream about, but instead got something kind of nice and thoughtful. Is it because your spouse doesn't love you? NO! It is because you need to learn how to love yourself enough to feel deserving of what you want and make it happen. Perhaps your spouse hasn't figured out how to manipulate the situation into allowing you to feel that way and get all the benefits that comes along with feeling good about yourself.
 

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You guys win. Apparently it's fine to lie to someone to get them to have sex with you, and the ends will always justify the means. The moderators have spoken, and whatever lies you have to tell to get your way are fine, her feelings aren't important.
 
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