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I would say that you could be in a "fog" when you are first in love. I know I was with my husband. I moved 6 hours away after 2 weeks to live with him and be with him. If I was thinking clearly, I wouldn't have done it.

With my AP, we would make plans to be together. We would talk about how he would live with us when we were in the Open Marriage. Then, in the EA, he replaced my husband in my fantasy world.

In truth, my AP would not move with me. He would not out my husband. He would not take me out of my husband's life. Yet, in the fog, I believed he would.

The fog is a deceitful thing. It is everything: happy, rainbows, and unicorns. You can't see in front of you. You are blinded to the one person's whose pain should matter: your BS.
 

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How so? I'm just being honest.

Well, I did see the typo in my post, but that's about it.

Also, I should say that all this happened in '07. We have recently closed off our marriage. I haven't been in contact with the OM in years. Our marriage is stronger than what it was before. We learned from both of our betrayals, and moved forward.

Trust me, I don't have any excuses for what I did. I was selfish. Plain and simple.
 

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you are extraordinarily

socially

and psychologically

very confused
there is no right and wrong answer.How can you say such things when Writer is giving her answer based on her life experiences??

From where I'm sitting you seem to be the one who is "extraordinarily socially and psychologically very confused."
 

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In love is with someone you should be with.

In the fog is with someone you should not be with.
That's a very good question and while I think the feelings are similar I think THIS aptly describes the difference. If it's with someone you know is wrong for you (they're married, have cheated multiple times in the past, have an addiction, are abusive, etc.) and you still think you can move foward you're in the fog.
 

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there is no right and wrong answer.How can you say such things when Writer is giving her answer based on her life experiences??

From where I'm sitting you seem to be the one who is "extraordinarily socially and psychologically very confused."
I'm confused by that response too. Maybe he didnt mean to quote Writer? :scratchhead:

If you just look at the answer and forget that Writer was quoted it makes sense as a definition of being in the fog.
 

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I'm confused by that response too. Maybe he didnt mean to quote Writer? :scratchhead:

If you just look at the answer and forget that Writer was quoted it makes sense as a definition of being in the fog.
that would make more sense.if that's the case then I apologize for misreading.
 

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That was the reason for my "How So" comment. It just left me bewildered (and I write bewilderment). It didn't make sense to me. The good news is that I caught that typo about him taking my husband's life. Wow. That typo made me look crazy.

But, back on topic, I think we all can agree that the fog is one dangerous, deceptive thing, and that R can't truly happen until the WS is out of it and expresses remorse through actions.
 

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Are you married? Love is a choice and anyone that has been married for years and years will tell you that it is a conscious decision to love your spouse. So to answer your question....the difference is anything outside of your marriage that you think is better greener and willing to throw away your vows for someone else...that is the fog.....because people dont think clearly through that time. The stupid "In love" feeling that people speak off....those things do not last....thats a feeling of infatuation that gets us all...I hope that makes sense.
 

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To me its fairly easy. The “fog” is more about taking on a belief system of “how you want it to be”. This is often vastly different than how it really is. Basically you devalue or throw out any information or facts that might contradict how you want it to appear. It’s a big old sales job in your head where you are reasoning yourself into an opinion or belief.

“Love” just is.... it is an emotion like “hate”. You can’t ‘reason’ it.
 

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A. Infatuation is mother nature's helping hand.
B. Love is a commitment and a desire to be and care for someone.
C. Fog is usually a MLC, which masks as A to the confused.
MLC... in your late twenties/early thirties? :scratchhead:

For that matter, when WOULD you classify it as a MLC? Age range, I mean. And if someone is having any form of sexual contact with someone outside the marriage...while the marriage is NOT open, it is an affair. If there is an emotional connection to someone...which SHOULD be a connection to the spouse, it is affair. MLC or not.
 

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To understand the difference between “in love” and the “the fog” one needs to understand emotions and what love is to some extent. Love is the feeling or feelings produced in reaction to a chemical c0cktail and connections in the brain created in response to external stimuli by association.

In short your brain responds to people & things by creating neural connections that are mediated by specific neurochemicals. Thus when you are reminded of or see that person your brain circuits fire the recognition and produce those feelings. Those feelings are emotions and are a result of the associations previously created. The emotion of love is closely tied with the reward systems of the brain which are also identified with addiction. Addictions produce a strong desire for more and serve to replace other neural connections to other people and things.

Much has been learned about the neurological basis for love in the past dozen years but it is still not fully understood. I have included a link to a review article below for those inclined to learn more. Even though emotions and the basis for them are not fully understood, they are understood well enough to create the generalizations above. These generalizations are enough to explain a significant amount of the emotions encountered in a daily reading of TAM.

Two different aspects of love have been mentioned in this thread, infatuation and long term (true) love. It has been shown that infatuation is linked to the euphoria, eroticism and excitement chemicals (see quote below) whereas long term love is associated with more nurturance, protectiveness, low stress. Two commonly distinct types of love can be understood as extremely different mixtures of the same chemicals. For each individual that you have love for will probably have a slightly different mixture of the chemical c0cktail. For instance family may be high on nurturing and so on. The point is that all types of love from romantic to agape are manifestations of a different mixture of the c0cktail. It’s basically the same chemical bath for everyone you love.

When you recognize this, it also explains that it is possible to be romantically in love with two people at the same time. It is not probable though because several of the neurochemicals including oxytocin actively break neural connections with others. Oxytocin is released via sex through orgasm and is responsible for the nurturing long term bonding components of love.

Now back to the question about the difference between “in love” and “the fog”. If you are married and you are still in love then you are probably at the long term true love spectrum of the chemical mixture. You probably (but not necessarily) went through an infatuation stage with your spouse. However since you may not have been attached to anyone else your new addiction to your pre-spouse may have gone unnoticed except by friends that saw less and less of you because you were then head over heels in love. Friends understand that is what happens often.

Now suppose you are married and in long term love but begin to have feelings for another. The addiction components of the c0cktail propel you to escalate contact as much as possible. Soon you get the rush and excitement and you are infatuated when the other. The escalation of contact from the desire to be with the other leads to a reprioritization of what is important. These new priorities are at odds with the marriage and don’t make sense. Furthermore when the oxytocin kicks in and neural connections with the spouse are replaced with the other then links to those old feelings diminish and disappear. This is often noted as rewriting history of the relationship because the way you remember things has changed and is changing. This is the fog. It is noticed more because it is in stark contrast to an existing relationship. Now if you have lost the love for your spouse you will still go through the steps above but your connections to your spouse have already been lost through other means and it is still the fog.



A review paper on emotion can be found at

The brain basis of emotion: A meta-analytic review, BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES (2012) 35, 121–202, Lindquist et. al.
http://nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~lindqukr/docs/Lindquist_etal_BBS2012.pdf

That above link is stale, see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22617651

http://www.unc.edu/~kal29/docs/Lindquist_etal_BBS2012.pdf


A good excerpt that shows the chemicals involved is:

Similarly, love is arguably a primary affect at the ecological level, associated with intimate displays (contact comfort, pheromones). The subjective experiences associated with love may be associated with a neurochemical c0cktail including high endorphins (euphoria), gonadotropinreleasing hormone (GnRH: eroticism), dopamine (DA: excitement), oxytocin (OXY: nurturance); vasopressin (AVP: protectiveness), CRH (stress); and low serotonin (5-HT: submission) (see Ortigue et al. 2010; Panksepp 1998). Understanding of these systems, their evolutionary and genetic bases, their complex interrelationships, and their communicative role in social interaction is proceeding apace. - Ross W. Buck, Prime elements of subjectively experienced feelings and desires: Imaging the emotional ****tail
 

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MLC... in your late twenties/early thirties? :scratchhead:

For that matter, when WOULD you classify it as a MLC? Age range, I mean. And if someone is having any form of sexual contact with someone outside the marriage...while the marriage is NOT open, it is an affair. If there is an emotional connection to someone...which SHOULD be a connection to the spouse, it is affair. MLC or not.
MLC can happen in the 20s, 30s, 50s but mostly in the 40's.

I believe the fog of the MLC is responsible for a large portion of failed marriages. It basically makes the person unhappy with their life enough to cheat to feel better. Like eating fast food it usually makes them feel worse later then they want to feel better again, so they do it again. Its all reactive behavior.
 

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How do you distinguish being truly "in love" versus being in "the fog"???
I say it is the same thing. Same brain chemicals.

Whether it is seen as infatuation or true love is very subjective.

The fact is that this is about brain chemicals oxytocin and dopamine.

I know a BS wants to look as this as being something else and that is all well and good but it is about feelings.

This is an addiction to a person. Folks are wired to bond and fall in love. Period.

Stepping back one can judge this if they like. But typically we bond in friendship which creates oxytocin in our brains. So we love the other person. But we also can love our brother and other folks. At some point when we start getting the dopamine rush of seeing someone this becomes more romantic in nature. This is the in love feeling. This is true whether you are married to someone or not. In fact to separate these is very dangerous becasue it minimizes what is going on. But moving forward, we can then make value judgements about why we love someone in a more rational way. Long term commitment and so on. This does matter of course. I am fine with calling this true love and the other a fog but to the person with the feelings it is the same. They are not thinking right.

Very often people fall in love and get married. One could call this an infatuation for sure. We could say this not true love until they have been happily married for number of years. But saying that people who are divorced after say ten years never were truly in love I say is disengenuous.

trying to determine true love from infatuation is very subjective. I get it. We can make that judgement from afar but I am not so sure how helpful it is. Maybe this can help people recover.

So in that light in my EA after I came out of withdrawal I saw it for what it was. So maybe this is the difference. You can withdraw and come out of the fog and work on the true love with your spouse. This is ok but realize that there is a reason that NC from an AP must be permanent. Ask yourself why that is?
 

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I was unaware that there was a difference.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

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no difference, both are AKA limerance. I love the weightless feeling of being in the fog, but the fog of a new appropriate relationship. I hated my ex W being in the fog from her affairs.
 
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