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“I just get the sense, sometimes, that some folks have an agenda at times and seem to want to steer a thread to meet their preconceived narrative. Perhaps I'm wrong, just my perception.”

You are not wrong IMHO, there are some posters who like to stir up ****. You will get stupid ass advice here, and you will get stellar advice also. After a few months on this board I pretty much figured out the members of the torch and pitchfork brigade. I think you have too.
Anyone who likes to go after those who show kindness to wayward (like you and me) is part of that brigade, basically.
 

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Indeed I took a lot of flak when I took my FWW back, some of the comments referred to me as being “hoovered”, foolish, and predicted I was heading for disaster. Needless to say, I saw something in my FWW that made me think we could have a successful R. Time has proven me to be correct. I am one of the few on this board who is a proponent of reconciliation, when I get the vibe from the poster that is it maybe a viable option.

I know fully well that in some instances the best thing to do is to D, and cut your losses.

Ps: We should show kindness to WW when they post here. It take a lot of courage to open up and knowing some people will be extremely harsh. @MrsMM is one who I strongly feel is a good person, and like my wife let her guard down and made a poor decision. I remind those who criticize too strongly and over the top to read Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Point is, none of us is perfect. The only perfect person I know died on a cross for our sins.

Peace.
 

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Which is why I think you both need to be open to the fact that on some level she knew but enjoyed it enough to continue anyway.
Of course she did. That's human nature. That's how every affair starts. Nobody's debating that she enjoyed the attention. And that that was wrong and crossed a line. Even she admitted it. So why do you have to keep bringing it up, over and over again? Waiting for the rags and ashes, I assume?

Let's move on, ok? She's already been pushed out for some's unwillingness to work on the NEXT step, which is what do I now do with this information?
 

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Which is why I think you both need to be open to the fact that on some level she knew but enjoyed it enough to continue anyway.
Of course she did. That's human nature. That's how every affair starts. Nobody's debating that she enjoyed the attention. And that that was wrong and crossed a line. Even she admitted it. So why do you have to keep bringing it up, over and over again? Waiting for the rags and ashes, I assume?

Let's move on, ok? She's already been pushed out for some's unwillingness to work on the NEXT step, which is what do I now do with this information?
I know. I mean, DUH. WS often like the attention they get.

The goal now is HEALTHY recovery. Hint: lifelong penance isn't it.

I really wish everyone still in dysfunction due to their own pain could find peace. It has to be a very unpleasant way to live and view others
 

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I am one of the few on this board who is a proponent of reconciliation when I get the vibe from the poster that is it may be a viable option.
I think the whole "proponent of" deal IS an agenda, so if you are commenting you are pushing an agenda. You are on an anonymous message board asking for advice, of course, people will be resolute in their ideas of a solution a.k.a. an agenda. Everyone here has an agenda. Personally, I'm not a proponent of divorce or reconciliation. I am a proponent of using the best tool for the job. Unfortunately as proven over and over again on this and other boards, divorce is usually the best tool in the case of infidelity, there are a handful of exceptions NLLH being one. I believe that Music_Man and MrsMM can be one of those exceptions as well, but to do so he must have contemplated every facet of what he is forgiving, and that's where the hard observations and questions come in. If you lambast anyone by name or subtle "group" suggestion you are proactively muzzling ideas that need to be considered to heal properly.

MrsMM seems like she is excellent R material and remorseful, I just haven't heard her say she wanted to be a part of the affair and as small as that one little thing may seem it is huge for the BS. If not now years down the road when that starts bouncing around in his head, and it will. You see it incessantly, they come back and say "I couldn't get over it".

e.t.a. I hope MrsMM is just too busy and hasn't been run off by the hard questions. If she has then how is she going to answer the hard question honestly IRL when they aren't presented in a polite way on a message board?
 

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Which is why I think you both need to be open to the fact that on some level she knew but enjoyed it enough to continue anyway.
Of course she did. That's human nature. That's how every affair starts. Nobody's debating that she enjoyed the attention. And that that was wrong and crossed a line. Even she admitted it. So why do you have to keep bringing it up, over and over again? Waiting for the rags and ashes, I assume?

Let's move on, ok? She's already been pushed out for some's unwillingness to work on the NEXT step, which is what do I now do with this information?
I know. I mean, DUH. WS often like the attention they get.

The goal now is HEALTHY recovery. Hint: lifelong penance isn't it.

I really wish everyone still in dysfunction due to their own pain could find peace. It has to be a very unpleasant way to live and view others
And her I was all this time thinking they just liked his shoes ...... go figure!!!
 

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This is the last I am going to say about this but I am gonna respond because the attacks have been on me. I was going to let it go but since it's like 7 posts now indirectly calling me out I might as well get banned again maybe for good this time.

I don't believe grown accomplished adults cheat because of some machiavellian person essentially tricks them into it. And I think the only reason to assert that it to avoid really digging deep into your soul and facing the hard stuff and what you really did and why. I get that it's easier for spouses to think that because then they don't have to look deep down and admit their spouses just choose someone else at some point of their own free will. And that is really deep down the only reason because it's the only reason that makes sense. There is no magic that makes people cheat. If you want to believe in magic you are not fixing anything doing that, you are just avoiding hard truths. If you don't face it eventually it will come back in some other way. Half the time the BS comes to the same realization 5, 10 even 20 years later, and then it's much worse.

Same exact thing goes with problems in the marriage or even your spouse suffering from PTSD or Planning a wedding or whatever. Blame that if you want but I suspect the harsh defense of that thinking just confirms that deep down you know it's not true. Your spouse is supposed to protect and help you through your PTSD, or when YOU are suffering in general, not go find someone else to be with. Even if you want to say it was hard on them, they failed you by not helping YOU when YOU were suffering. YES YOU are suffering at that point no them. YOU! Sorry it's bull****. I get that you don't like that but it doesn't make it any less true.

I have read a lot of R story's. The good ones where the BS stops questioning everything like some do for years and years. The ones where the spouse isn't looking for some mythical reason that makes it understandable are the ones were both the BS and WS admit that they chose to cheat because they wanted to and that's it. They are sorry for that. Then the BS chooses to forgive them and the go on from there. Go read SI's Wayward board, almost all the good posters who give advice on the wayward section and other sections admit this fact.

Read here. Not one of the WS is saying I cheated because the guy fooled me or the bed wasn't made. Not one and those are WS (in my opinion the kind that you have a chance with). What's their Agenda?

Call me an ******* or say I have an agenda and I do, that's it, it's not like I hide any agenda in my posts I say what I think quite plainly on this site. What I am saying here is also not uncommon and not even controversial to most. It's a pretty standard refrain both here and on SI. But so is blaming the AP or the marriage. Pretty telling that saying that causes some people to call me, out but it's not surprising the biggest proponent of this theory is the one doing it the most. Basically that **** is what you call rug sweeping and there seems to be a lot of it going on on this site of late.

I don't know about you but if I thought my wife cheated on me (which she hasn't and I don't want anyone getting the wrong idea) because she was tricked by a predator would keep me worried that some other Apex predictor could trick her in another way and I would never feel safe. Which is why you have some "recovered" marriages where the one spouse watches like a hawk and the other spouse hides at home. Not a good dynamic or a healthy marriage in my estimation. However if you get to the point that you admit you cheated because of a character flaw (allowing yourself to cheat) and a deep need that you didn't address in a healthy manor you can fix it and eventually have a healthy dynamic.

Anyway I will bow out. Just like I bowed out on Jilted Muppet's post, and that other poor soul who eventually left her with. The biggest tell that somethings wrong here is the fact that you got a guy whose wife is making porn movies with some guy, going on sex fused vacations, and still in contact with the AP and there are people telling him to think before he leaves her. That's pretty bad advice in my mind, but when I point that out someone inevitably attacks ME personally not even the advice. The mods don't do anything about it. Of course that happens because how can't justify that advice anyway. Here is a man who is deep in an abusive relationship and the advice is to wait and think about it. Garbage. I have to bow out because if I respond as such I think I will probably be banned for it. Garbage.

One more thing if you can't handle my "agenda" on this internet board (a total stranger) you are in for a rough time. Even the best R is going to be harder then some post that you disagree with on the internet.

Mods feel free to delete this post effectively silencing me and then ban me for a month as it works around her now, but of course leave the post talking about how nefarious my "agenda is". As is how this place is going now.

SI 2.0.
 

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@MrsMM hasn't been 'run off' from the boards. Just a super busy and difficult week, and certification exams to study for also. She'll be back at some point.

FWIW, she's admitted what she's needed to to me. If you read between the lines, she's admitted it here. She admits that she enjoyed facets of the affair- it's one of the reasons she stayed in it. But if some are holding out for her to say "I wanted him from the day I met him. I loved him, was in love with him, and slept with him all over the hospital 147 times", well just put her on ignore now. Not going to happen. But once the texting and flirting started- yes, of course she wanted it or she wouldn't have participated and also would've stopped it sooner.

She isn't bothered by what's been said here. She's way tougher than that.
 

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@MrsMM hasn't been 'run off' from the boards. Just a super busy and difficult week, and certification exams to study for also. She'll be back at some point.

FWIW, she's admitted what she's needed to to me. If you read between the lines, she's admitted it here. She admits that she enjoyed facets of the affair- it's one of the reasons she stayed in it. But if some are holding out for her to say "I wanted him from the day I met him. I loved him, was in love with him, and slept with him all over the hospital 147 times", well just put her on ignore now. Not going to happen. But once the texting and flirting started- yes, of course she wanted it or she wouldn't have participated and also would've stopped it sooner.

She isn't bothered by what's been said here. She's way tougher than that.
Enjoying attention from others is normal, and with healthy boundaries, it is good for overall health and friendly relationships.

We just had a 3 day conference where a lot of hugging and good natured flirting went on.

Lots of touches traded during conversations as well.

I enjoyed the interaction and I think most healthy people do. It gets unhealthy when boundaries are crossed but it still feels good. Why wouldn't it?

Maybe most could relate if they understood that the interaction and attention received from others that feels good to them would not go away because boundaries are crossed. Those feelings might, and probably will, get even stronger if nurtured in a secretive manner like the start of an EA.
 

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Enjoying attention from others is normal, and with healthy boundaries, it is good for overall health and friendly relationships.



We just had a 3 day conference where a lot of hugging and good natured flirting went on.



Lots of touches traded during conversations as well.



I enjoyed the interaction and I think most healthy people do. It gets unhealthy when boundaries are crossed but it still feels good. Why wouldn't it?



Maybe most could relate if they understood that the interaction and attention received from others that feels good to them would not go away because boundaries are crossed. Those feelings might, and probably will, get even stronger if nurtured in a secretive manner like the start of an EA.
Well said @ConanHub. And boundaries are the key. A 'good marriage' is not an affair proof marriage. Boundaries are the key.
 

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@MrsMMFWIW, she's admitted what she's needed to to me. If you read between the lines, she's admitted it here. She admits that she enjoyed facets of the affair- it's one of the reasons she stayed in it. But if some are holding out for her to say "I wanted him from the day I met him. I loved him, was in love with him, and slept with him all over the hospital 147 times", well just put her on ignore now. Not going to happen. But once the texting and flirting started- yes, of course she wanted it or she wouldn't have participated and also would've stopped it sooner.
Which I never ever said, ever! And why I am pissed. Read my posts on here again, basically @MrsMM has now confirmed my point and only point. I never questioned her story as far as sex or that she would go back to that at all!

Again I think you have a very good chance. I don't think this will happen again in fact. That's because don't believe the affair was about sex or emotional attachment in any way. I think it was about getting and ego boost which I have said about 100xs on here. I am saying to for you dude! I am trying to get across to you that YOU didn't do anything wrong and it's not about any failing in YOU!!!!! And you keep attacking me for it.

Also that I don't think you are in any danger of her succumbing to some smooth talking George Clooney type. MrsMM is not so innocent to not be able to smell out some phony dude trying to pick her up. Sorry MrsMM but you know I am right. You don't get to be a head nurse and do all you have done in your life by being a bad judge of people. I suspect MrsMM has very very good interpersonal skills, which is why I also suspect in the back of her mind she probably knew something was up. But that was never what this was about that in the first place and the tell is that she only passively participated in it. All she wanted from it and all she allowed herself to participate in was getting compliments, compliments that filled her ego. Yes I am being harsh here but doesn't what I am saying given the evidence make sense? Why else would she allow it to continue but not respond? It continued precisely because she could tell herself I don't want this POS but maybe I will let him blow some smoke because it feels kind of nice.

The danger here at least as how I theorize is that MrsMM likes to be successful (and there is nothing inherently wrong with that). Lots of people get great worth from accomplishments and kind of in the same vain those people like people to recognizing that an say as much, but in this case she liked the attention from someone who was accomplished and who she respected (at the time) enough to be disrespectful to her husband and marriage. As I see it at first it probably was, it feels good to have this accomplished doctor telling me how good I am at my job. He really likes and respects me. Then it became obvious that he was attracted to her too.

At that point she was at a crossroads, however it probably also shocking to her that her, a good, moral, raised Christian women, that having someone giving her sexual attention also felt just as good. She probably assumed she would be disgusted and it would be easy to say **** off. It's a sin and according to how she was brought up she shouldn't feel that way right? It's a very dirty sexual sin that only very bad people would ever like. Yet it did feel good, it was another new avenue to have someone appreciate you, and that was probably a new feeling and exciting in a way as well. To quote the killers "They say the devil's water — it ain't so sweet you don't have to drink right now but you can dip your feet every once in a little while." And even though this was sex it was still in the wheelhouse. The wheelhouse of feeling good about yourself because others see you as valuable. Valuable in your job, valuable in your marriage, valuable in your attractiveness. OK maybe I am wrong, but at least think about it. Because if that is the case maybe next time it will be that wheelhouse that will get you in trouble some other way.

The only reason I am pointing this out and continuing to post while being told I want your R to fail is because I am not sure even MrsMM sees this yet. She herself said she doesn't really understand why. Well maybe this is it, or maybe I am wrong (and I have no problem you saying such, but stop saying my agenda is to stop you from being successful! I am ****ing trying to help here while being told I just want to destroy your marriage and that sucks.) Maybe just pointing this out will start a dialogue that will help you figure out it's something else. That is kind of the point here right? Why are you posting if not? Just for sympathy?

Dude from the first I have been saying this to HELP YOU! Even if I am wrong I am right that YOU didn't do ANYTHING WRONG! Same goes for NLLH! I get it your nature is to protect your wives, it's actually mind too. But at this point your wives have ask for forgiveness and are no longer that person. Shockingly enough that is how I think about MrsMM and NLLH's wife. Doesn't mean you can't talk about what they did in the past. But seems to me you are attacking the messenger to protect them without even listening to what is being said. Most of the time all I am saying is IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT! In this case in my mind it wasn't about your attractiveness or some failing in your marriage. I am not attacking your wife or you. I am trying to help both of you.
 

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Which I never ever said, ever! And why I am pissed. Read my posts on here again, basically @MrsMM has now confirmed my point and only point. I never questioned her story as far as sex or that she would go back to that at all!

Again I think you have a very good chance. I don't think this will happen again in fact. That's because don't believe the affair was about sex or emotional attachment in any way. I think it was about getting and ego boost which I have said about 100xs on here. I am saying to for you dude! I am trying to get across to you that YOU didn't do anything wrong and it's not about any failing in YOU!!!!! And you keep attacking me for it.

Also that I don't think you are in any danger of her succumbing to some smooth talking George Clooney type. MrsMM is not so innocent to not be able to smell out some phony dude trying to pick her up. Sorry MrsMM but you know I am right. You don't get to be a head nurse and do all you have done in your life by being a bad judge of people. I suspect MrsMM has very very good interpersonal skills, which is why I also suspect in the back of her mind she probably knew something was up. But that was never what this was about that in the first place and the tell is that she only passively participated in it. All she wanted from it and all she allowed herself to participate in was getting compliments, compliments that filled her ego. Yes I am being harsh here but doesn't what I am saying given the evidence make sense? Why else would she allow it to continue but not respond? It continued precisely because she could tell herself I don't want this POS but maybe I will let him blow some smoke because it feels kind of nice.

The danger here at least as how I theorize is that MrsMM likes to be successful (and there is nothing inherently wrong with that). Lots of people get great worth from accomplishments and kind of in the same vain those people like people recognizing that, but in this case she liked the attention from someone who was accomplished and who she respected (at the time) enough to be disrespectful to her husband and marriage. As I see it at first it probably was, it feels good to have this accomplished doctor telling me how good I am at my job. He really likes and respects me. Then it became obvious that he was attracted to her too.

At that point she was at a crossroads, however it probably also shocking to her that her, a good moral, raised Christian women, that having someone giving her sexual attention also felt just as good. She probably assumed she would be disgusted and it would be easy to say **** off. But that is a sin and according to how she was brought up she shouldn't feel that way right? It's dirty and should feel that way. Yet it did, and that was probably a new feeling and exciting in a way as well. To quote the killers "They say the devil's water — it ain't so sweet you don't have to drink right now but you can dip your feet every once in a little while." And even though this was sex it was still in the wheel house. The wheel house of feeling good about yourself because others see you as valuable. Valuable in your job, valuable in your marriage, valuable in your attractiveness. OK maybe I am wrong, but at least think about it. Because if that is the case maybe next time it will be that wheelhouse that will get you in trouble some other way.

The only reason I am pointing this out and continuing to post while being told I want your R to fail is because I am not sure even MrsMM sees this yet. She herself said she doesn't really understand why. Well maybe this is it, or maybe I am wrong (and I have no problem you saying such, but stop saying my agenda is to stop you from being successful! I am ****ing trying to help here while being told I just want to destroy your marriage and that sucks.) Maybe just pointing this out will start a dialogue that will help you figure out it's something else. That is kind of the point here right? Why are you posting if not. Just for sympathy?

Dude from the first I have been saying this to HELP YOU! Even if I am wrong I am right YOU didn't do ANYTHING WRONG! Same goes for NLLH! I get it your nature is to protect your wives, it's actually mind too. But at this point your wives have ask for forgiveness and are no longer that person. Shockingly enough that is how I think about MrsMM and NLLH's wife. Doesn't mean you can't talk about what they did in the past. But seems to me you are attacking the messenger to protect them without even listening to what is being said. Most of the time all I am saying is IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT! In this case in my mind it wasn't about your attractiveness or some failing in your marriage. I am not attacking your wife or you. I am trying to help both of you.[/quote @sokillme I wasn't calling you out in the last post. It's subtle digs from others, from my thread more than this one. Don't assume it's always you
 

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Chill dude. You come off a certain way regardless of if you intend to or not.

If your posts aren't appealing for MM, no big deal. You don't have to get so snippy.

This thread was for he and his lady to share about their experience in hopes that others could learn and be helped.

I get that you more than likely believe you are totally in line with the OP but you must be conveying something else to a lot of the TAM community.
 

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Chill dude. You come off a certain way regardless of if you intend to or not.

If your posts aren't appealing for MM, no big deal. You don't have to get so snippy.

This thread was for he and his lady to share about their experience in hopes that others could learn and be helped.

I get that you more than likely believe you are totally in line with the OP but you must be conveying something else to a lot of the TAM community.
This is probably true.
 

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Chill dude. You come off a certain way regardless of if you intend to or not.

If your posts aren't appealing for MM, no big deal. You don't have to get so snippy.

This thread was for he and his lady to share about their experience in hopes that others could learn and be helped.

I get that you more than likely believe you are totally in line with the OP but you must be conveying something else to a lot of the TAM community.
Amen
 

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Hi @MrsMM,

I am glad to meet you however anonymously it may be.

I am also glad you and your husband are working through this together.

Honestly I think that Mr.MM is here seeking healing for an incurable wound. If not healing then consolation.

It seems the right path for him. His options are limited.

I am not a believer in bigger-better-stronger as a rule, but I do know that people are sometimes weak, sometimes needy, and sometimes vulnerable.

Mix that with a laspe of judgment and you have done something that changes everything.

Sometimes other people make choices for us. It is the best of humanity that rebuilds from devastation.
You chose this for him. Now you both rebuild.

I do have one concern.
Generally if you let someone meet your emotional needs, especially if you are attracted to them, you will catch feelings for them.

Sex usually follows. (In dating relationships for example.)

It's a strong biological imperative.

Time together + Attraction (of some kind) + feelings + intimate conversation (not necessarily sexual) = intercourse.

People are wired to meet and mate fairly quickly.

I think your assertion that you would not (or perhaps would never?) let it go physical is shortsighted.

I have to believe MrMM doesn't buy it either.

It is an ugly thing to face.

This smacks as a lack of self-awareness.

It may be believable as a matter of circumstances, but any more than that seems doubtful.

True objectivity is a precious thing.

I can more easily trust someone if they can honestly evaluate their risk for infidelity, than all the vows or confident assertions in the world.

That said I dont want to be hard on you. I find your reconciliation very encouraging and I am glad you both are here.

I look forward to hearing more from M&MMM. :)
 

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I for one hope Mrs M does not post at all again.

The goals here are clear.

I hope Mr M will advise her not to.

And before I give in to the temptation to spell out why as explicitly as possible....I'm gonna go ahead and give MYSELF a vacation.
 

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Discussion Starter #79 (Edited)
Wow! I'm away for a couple of days and look what happens:surprise: This will probably be last post for awhile. I need to continue on the road to healing and most importantly, supporting MM and HIS recovery, and right now this could be a potential stumbling block (triggers and so forth). Nothing too serious yet, but why risk setbacks? My DH seems to have cleared up a few things and took the liberty of answering some questions. We're on the same page so that's absolutely fine.

I'll take a quick stab at a few things here, then I bid you all farewell until a later date. I know that I can potentially help others, so I will be back. After all, that's one of my goals :smile2:

Yes, I obviously liked the attention. I enjoyed getting compliments about career the most, but I absolutely enjoyed having an accomplished surgeon tell me how beautiful I was. I enjoyed the flirting, and I even enjoyed some of the sexual talk for a season. However, when it became ONLY sex talk, I began to feel uncomfortable very quickly. When he attempted the kiss and then stayed only in the realm of sexual texts thereafter, I was looking to stop it. This is NOT to minimize the fact that I did enjoy the attention, it's to try to give you a glimpse inside my head, and perhaps more importantly, my heart.

Now, the million $$$ question, how am I so certain it never would've gone further? Let me clarify something. Based on how things were going with us, and him becoming more and more aggressive, I know there is no way, under THESE circumstances that I would have taken it physical. I also had at least one boundary in place- to make sure that no one ever got a HINT that we were texting and flirting. This meant that I absolutely had physical boundaries when at work.

Now, what would have happened had he NOT become aggressive, had he just continued complimenting my work and my looks and continued with the 'baby steps'? That's been a tough one to answer, and one that Mr MM grilled me over and interrogated me over to an extreme degree. And it's answer? I don't know. I think most rational, intelligent adults would surmise that something would've happened physically, if this path had been taken. BUT, that path was not taken, and I wasn't in that particular situation. My gut? I hope that I would still stop, that my morals and work ethic and my husband and everything else would have been enough, but my gut says it would have been possible, even probable, based on the above scenarios.

And this is something important and both scary at the same time: during my IC sessions and in reading Not Just Friends, it's been stated that for almost all women, the gap from talking and flirting to the first kiss is much wider than the gap from kiss to sexual contact or full blown intercourse. This shows me that him trying to kiss me and me being shocked and pushing him away is one of THE most important instances of this whole affair. If I had accepted, pulled him to me instead of pushing away, perhaps my DH would have been on here asking for D advice instead of R. It is absolutely something to not only ponder, but something to dig deeply into. Again, the affirmative answer? Unknown. Gut answer? Trouble was not only possible, but probable.

Hope that answers things for you all. I hate to live in the what if land, but we have and will continue to explore as needed. Again, thankful beyond measure that God provided a way out when He did. His timing was impeccable, and we both believe it shows that He has bigger and better plans for our relationship.
 
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