[Divinely Favored]

Morning peeps. Guess it's time to put to word, some deep reflection I've had with all this. Thinking, as best as I can with the emotions aside, I've come up with a bit of a list for me:

Can I trust what she says to be the gospel?
Can we both get over some resentments and pain we've caused each other through the years?
Does she have genuine empathy for me and remorse for the way she acted, what she did or didn't do?
Can she make me feel safe again, as I did before this starting revealing itself?
Will she really respect me, not just as her husband, but as a man, the man?

Of course, there are so many different variables and nuances along with this. Since I've gone this far with all this, time to layout another issue that was a cause and effect from the time in 2018, when she first dropped a bomb on me.
I've always had a strong physical desire sexually. Due to the now known bipolar condition I have, I realize I have the hyper sex drive. It's hard for a person not afflicted with bipolar to understand this aspect. It's not just a hey I'm horny, you look good, let's get busy kind of thing. It can border on obsession. In talking with my Dr's, psychologist and psychiatrists, they helped me to understand this side affect of the illness. That I'm not a sex addict. That it is a part of how my mind and body seek the extra dopamine to feel good, countering the manic. That for some, it's the total opposite. It has nothing to do with hormone levels. This part is key to understand the next part.
So after the bomb dropped about J, something in me shifted. Very quickly, I stopped responding to her touch? The desire was there, but not the response physically. In other words, you guessed it, ED reared it's ugly head!
Here is one of the most hurtful and ugly parts in all this. About 3 years ago, i was having a difficult time sleeping. So I got up and went to the kitchen and made a cup of coffee. I was having tumultuous thoughts running non stop in my mind. The worst at the moment was the insane desire for her and lack of response. She wandered out after a bit, saw me sitting there in the dark and asked if I'm OK? I said no. She sat down with me and asked what's wrong. That's when the floodgates opened. I explained to her how miserable I have been feeling. How the ED was affecting me. That i felt like less than a man. I have this beautiful woman with me, loving me, me expressing all this desire and...nothing! How was she to believe me? I felt so ashamed. That the one thing, the very one thing that makes me male, and I couldn't do that. That as a male, a man, this is a huge part of my identity. I felt like a Ken doll. Emasculated, and how could she want or respect a man like this.
The big part that she didn't realize nor would understand, were the mind movies, her rejections through the years, the thoughts of how many times did she make love to him by proxy!
She assured me that my feelings were just the spin cycling of my bipolar, that she loved me. That I'm her man and not to worry, she does desire me and this will be figured out. Note I hadn't mentioned the mind movie part.
Well about 3 weeks later we get into a big emotional discussion and it gets heated. It was then that she turned on me and used all that I'd said about how I felt about the ED issue and said how could she really believe it when I said I desired her, yet I lay in her arms and couldn't deliver! She said some other things along with this. She effectively neutered me with this! This was a cruel thing to say to anyone! Add that to telling me how she wished she had consummated it with J? She absolutely shedded my manhood and dignity and any confidence I had!
Over the last year, I've been working closely with DRS in dealing with this issue. My therapist and I have been working deeply with my feelings of shame over this. I know that i have a deep need to reclaim her as mine, as unfounded as it seems, but I need to drive his memories from both our minds, to be that man!
This is for us going to be a huge hurdle to try and get through. She seems to think, offering to try different things sexually is the way to "fix" the problem. I've told her that, while I really appreciate what she's trying to do, it's not the physical act of sex that's broken. It's the part of me emotionally that feels I'm a man. It will require time, losts of therapy together and her ability to make me feel safe, that I AM THE MAN, AND THE ONLY MAN in her thoughts and memories.
This is gonna be a very difficult thing to do, when I'm not even sure what is real about us and what is a lie.
Well there you have it. The final act in a convoluted life together. Its a lot to deal with. This isn't a 5 minute fix. Do I even want to fix it? Is it worth fixing? Will I ever be able to believe what she claims to be the truth? Polygraph or not? Would i be better off to move on, end it and forge ahead? Would I feel even more miserable to give up, give in and let J win after all these years? To allow insecurities from some texting beat me? Are these things retro jealousy, spun viciously by a bipolar mind? Damn it's all just so messed up inside!!
I wish someone could just wave a magic wand and make things right, wish someone else could figure this all out. Wish it wasn't me here, now. Crap I never thought I'd be here like this. I'm sorry folks, guess a bit of self pity.

EDIT TO ADD: In a recent conversation, as well as in "the talk" i brought up the power dynamic shift with her. That, because of my ED issue, she didn't have to fear me stepping out. What woman would want a man who couldn't perform? I'd be laughed into the gutter. She denies this, yet I told her that her actions of entitlement show just how confident she's become in her feeling I have no other choice in my life, except Her.

To me what she said about consuming it with J, tells me she is not remorseful for her actions. She may not like the repercussions, but sorry for her actions, she is not.

 

[TinyTbone]

Well wouldn't you know it. Phones on do not disturb mode. Woke up this morning to a flood of texts and voice messages from the wife!

 

[TinyTbone]

Oh and bit of a note. I don't drink, period. Quit 41 years ago. So when I go out like I have, I have other beverages.

 

[DLLAL]

Good afternoon, @TinyTbone

I've been thinking about what you wrote and have 2 topics to touch on, with TAM references.

First
If it is true that throughout your marriage, there were sudden episodes of rage and verbal castration toward your wife (due to undiagnosed BP), that could have caused her to distrust you and therefore lose respect for the man she wanted to esteem. It was years of walking on eggshells for her. It is only recently that the BP was diagnosed, that counseling gave you awareness, and that you began implementing changes in this area of your life.

You report that you still react in sudden rage and you have promised to verbally abuse your wife. So we know that you are on the right path by seeking trained help, but please keep in mind that you are at the beginning of the path toward changed behavior. Your actions currently line up with history. This does not teach your wife that she can trust you to protect her heart.

I believe there was a poster who learned about his wife's lack of trust that his promises of change would pan out. He had out of the blue decided he wanted their marriage to be improved and in marital counseling she questioned how she could believe he would not revert back, since he had done so before. I think you are at this stage. You want the marriage to be great and are willing to do something about it. But these changes will need time, effort and permanence in order to earn her trust. I think the thread was "Sh** Test?". I'll admit I have not read the whole thread, but what I did read - especially the community advice - was worth the read.

Second
@Young at Heart has shared his story, I hope someone can find a link. He decided he wanted a better marriage and read every last marriage and relationship book he could get his hands on. He did all of it on his own for 6 months without alerting his wife to what he was doing.

One thing he discovered was that his method of proving his love was actually pushing away his wife. He showed love by Working All The Time Including Voluntary Overtime to make sure they had a nice life, whereas his wife showed her love by putting in lots of effort to make home a welcoming place, including making nightly home-cooked dinners for him and the kids. Unfortunately, this meant he rarely came home to have dinner with her and the kids - he would come hours later when the food was cold and her hard work was for naught and the kids were abed. He did not realize that he was essentially telling her that he valued unnecessary extra money more than time with her and the kids. Just a misunderstanding about Love Languages/Values they never thought to discuss, which caused a lot of resentment from both of them.

In short, he was blown away by what he learned.

Due to the changes he implemented based on what he had learned, his wife started responding to him in a more loving way. His own effort and permanent changes were the catalysts for the changes in his marriage. I have hope that you can do the same, and would encourage you to try to find his story somewhere in these threads.

Most importantly:
I wish you all the best, all hope, and a bright future. With your new 1971 Charger, of course. 😉

 

[SnakePlissken]

SnakePlissken, take note. I fully realize what you go through with the anxiety panic attacks!

I'm sorry to hear about your pain. Stress seems to have has a way of creating chemical and electrical overloads in my brain as well 😔. Please make sure to take extra care of your sleep and meals. I've found power bars are a helpful go to for when I have no hunger and know I need to eat.


Also, where are you in your mood cycle? I find stress pushes me to mania very quickly even with medication.

I really need the space.

I'm early in your thread, so if I missed any next steps already. You should take the space you need and focus on taking care of yourself. It's the only way I know how to combat that bipolar beast.

I'm sorry for the constant bombardment of info. Just ...just I didn't realize how much i had just stuffed away for so long. Ive said its amazing how much we can endure and it becomes the norm.

Get it off your chest my good man. If I were posting about your situation, there'd be asterisks all over my post. Keep letting it out, it's good for you.

I feel as if I'm leaving her behind in many ways. I do want her with me, by my side, not stumbling blindly somewhere behind me.

This is a tough one, because you have a fresh set of eyes and I imagine a different set of behaviors based on therapy and medication. It sounds like she is still married to the Jekyll & Hyde of untreated bipolar disorder in her head. She has the same expectations as before and now you have new ones because of the changes you have made working on yourself. It also sounds like she is holding onto a ton of resentments from the past and using them to justify her behavior. I don't think you can lead a horse to water here. She has to be willing and capable of self-reflection to a level that enables her to see her part in the problems in your marriage and then a level of accountability to own it. First, is she capable of doing the self-reflection? Second, is she willing to do it? Third does she have the level of accountability to own it?

Do you think part of this feeling is waking up from the exhausting world of constantly taming your bipolar disorder and determining what you actually want vs. white knuckling life before treatment?

OK, so guys ...I'm going to try and slow down a bit before hitting post, to proof read and correct as needed. Even i can't make heads or tails of some things!

2nd gentle reminder to check your mood. I can't help but worry about that dimension of your life my good man. I've found when I lose track that I usually regret it later.

Due to the now known bipolar condition I have, I realize I have the hyper sex drive. It's hard for a person not afflicted with bipolar to understand this aspect. It's not just a hey I'm horny, you look good, let's get busy kind of thing. It can border on obsession. In talking with my Dr's, psychologist and psychiatrists, they helped me to understand this side affect of the illness. That I'm not a sex addict. That it is a part of how my mind and body seek the extra dopamine to feel good, countering the manic.

I understand you brother. I find it to be the most annoying symptom of this disease.

Damn, I wish I'd just wake up and it was all just a bad dream. It's hard for me to even review what I've written and know it was by my own fingers, so surreal. That this is what's been buried inside, pushed aside, not wanting to see it. Now, at least by being freely open here and my therapist, I have to see, have to cope with all this garbage, have to do something except say your right honey.

You did wake up and realize what your reality actually is and what you want. I think you were asleep in the manage the bipolar beast on your own nightmare and blind to other problems in life. I think it is unavoidable to be blind to so much reality with this disorder, however that could be my own experience biasing me. Regardless, it does sound like you are seeing that your life isn't what you want it to be. That's OK. I think that this all feels surreal makes a ton of sense to me. You say that you've spent life with people pleaser tendencies and stuffed your wants and needs in the process. It feels unnatural to do things for yourself after a life of worrying about the emotions of others. I get you dude. When you get the **** kicked out of you as a kid because someone can't manage their emotions, you learn to try and manage their emotions for them as much as possible to avoid getting the **** kicked out of you by upsetting them.

I could be misreading here, so take this with a grain of salt. It sounds to me like you were and to some degree are repeating a similar pattern with your wife based on what you write. Look what happens when you call out her bad behavior, she kicks the **** out of you emotionally. She says some really mean and downright cruel things to you, when you don't manage her emotions for her by stuffing your wants and needs to avoid an ass whoopin' put on you by her emotionally. It sounds like you are standing up for your needs and good for you for doing so. I'm proud of you for doing it as cheesy as that sounds, because I know how goddamn hard it is to fight that programming. I found it creates more conflict, which is what that behavior helps avoid, because people aren't expecting you to stand up for yourself. It makes the work to change it 2x as hard in my opinion.

It sounds like you are taking a bit of space to relax and get your emotions in order by spending time with folks you trust. I'm happy to hear you are taking care of yourself. It is unfortunate to read that you have suffered as much as you have up to this point. I think this will be good for you and it would be worth your time to continue to work on that list of priorities and how you want to live your life for you. Then follow through on it. Don't worry about your wife's feelings they aren't your responsibility. She certainly hasn't demonstrated that she gives two craps about yours.

 

[TinyTbone]

Well Mr. SnakePlissken, I have taken a bit of a time out. To relax some, ruminate a spell, visit with family wh care about me as just me.
I could write a novella of how many ways a person can inflict emotional pain on another. My Mom was a damn good teacher, and I was obviously a good pupil. I've been to hades and back through the years with the torment inside me. Sadly, as you know yourself, it doesn't come out well at all. The years of therapy have helped me tremendously to recognize and cope with these deep seated emotions. It's been a long road to redemption. My daughter and I have a deep and caring relationship again. She trusts now that I won't go ballistic now. Yes the wife is skeptical. She should be. Daughter is 23, wife is 62. She's lived through it more than the daughter has.
One of the reasons I took a couple days away was to ensure these were genuine feelings not fueled by bipolar spin cycles.
In fact I'll be heading back real early in the morning as I have to work tomorrow night.

 

[TinyTbone]

However, bipolar feelings don't change the fact of things she did in the real world. Things that at best were beyond inappropriate for a married person.

 

[TinyTbone]

OK, so taking 2 more days. Took PTO. Its been theraputic to get away from our stress and think clearly, feel cleary.

 

[StillGettingWiser]

I normally just read threads and move on with my day, but something stuck out to me and I'm not sure if anyone has already brought it up.

I may have the timeline of this happening wrong.

You asked her if she ever had a threesome and she said no, then changed her tune and said well "technically" she did. After trying to wiggle out of it and holding her feet to the fire she admits herself, her friend and J all shared a bed one night.

She tried to wiggle out of that one and you again held her feet to the fire. She then says three times to you she should've just slept with J, and when she tried to say it a fourth time you shut her down.

I have seen many people in my life experience get caught trying to tell a half truth, and then turn around and overly state they should've just went ahead and did whatever it was they were keeping from their story.

In my eyes saying it once would be believable, making the same statement multiple times had bells and whistles going off for me.

Probably doesn't add anything, especially since I am late to this thread. I hope you're able to enjoy some more stress free days T.

 

[SnakePlissken]

However, bipolar feelings don't change the fact of things she did in the real world. Things that at best were beyond inappropriate for a married person.

I agree that chaos of chemicals in our brain doesnt change or excuse the bad things others do/have done to us. I'm happy to hear you are letting the swings settle in peace. Continue to take good care of yourself my friend.

 

[TinyTbone]

Well guess i have been stressed. Just realized since I'm taking the next 2 days off, I'll have 2 more extra days off as well! It's a 2 for 4 deal. Brother has no issue, as we've has really good time together after a few years.
Oh the other night I got to experience the thrill of dancing again. His wife drug me out on the floor at one place and I herky jerkied with the best of 'em! Lol was a fun time indeed.

 

[TinyTbone]

Alright, a bit of an update. The wife had texted me throughout the weekend. Just left on read. Just trying to clear my mind. She sent a text withing the hour urging me to please read and respond, so i have.
She has found and booked a couples councelor now. First session next Monday. Also she has found and scheduled an appointment for a therapist. Also has Dr's appointment to discuss her current depression meds and addressing the ADHD!
This is very good news to hear indeed. It shows to me that she does value us greatly. She has also profusely apologized, I believe genuinely, for some things she has said that were extremely hurtful and that she wants to address this and more in counseling and therapy. These are good to know, as she is now recognizing some of her own faults in our relationship. Not just blaming me for everything!
We still have a ways to go to keep this going, if it's what we can agree upon. The old status quo just isn't working. We both have to change and grow to get through any of this.
I will admit I'm very surprised by her swift actions. I'm no saint, believe me, I know. However I have been trying to get her to understand serious things about us. Also for once, I'm standing up for myself, I have a voice and will he heard. I have deep feelings as anyone else. To have to endure things she said so callously and coldly, well if you've read the whole thread, then no sense repeating.

 

[Blossom Leigh]

Alright, a bit of an update. The wife had texted me throughout the weekend. Just left on read. Just trying to clear my mind. She sent a text withing the hour urging me to please read and respond, so i have.
She has found and booked a couples councelor now. First session next Monday. Also she has found and scheduled an appointment for a therapist. Also has Dr's appointment to discuss her current depression meds and addressing the ADHD!
This is very good news to hear indeed. It shows to me that she does value us greatly. She has also profusely apologized, I believe genuinely, for some things she has said that were extremely hurtful and that she wants to address this and more in counseling and therapy. These are good to know, as she is now recognizing some of her own faults in our relationship. Not just blaming me for everything!
We still have a ways to go to keep this going, if it's what we can agree upon. The old status quo just isn't working. We both have to change and grow to get through any of this.
I will admit I'm very surprised by her swift actions. I'm no saint, believe me, I know. However I have been trying to get her to understand serious things about us. Also for once, I'm standing up for myself, I have a voice and will he heard. I have deep feelings as anyone else. To have to endure things she said so callously and coldly, well if you've read the whole thread, then no sense repeating.

This is awesome!! 💕💕💕💕

 

[Divinely Favored]

Alright, a bit of an update. The wife had texted me throughout the weekend. Just left on read. Just trying to clear my mind. She sent a text withing the hour urging me to please read and respond, so i have.
She has found and booked a couples councelor now. First session next Monday. Also she has found and scheduled an appointment for a therapist. Also has Dr's appointment to discuss her current depression meds and addressing the ADHD!
This is very good news to hear indeed. It shows to me that she does value us greatly. She has also profusely apologized, I believe genuinely, for some things she has said that were extremely hurtful and that she wants to address this and more in counseling and therapy. These are good to know, as she is now recognizing some of her own faults in our relationship. Not just blaming me for everything!
We still have a ways to go to keep this going, if it's what we can agree upon. The old status quo just isn't working. We both have to change and grow to get through any of this.
I will admit I'm very surprised by her swift actions. I'm no saint, believe me, I know. However I have been trying to get her to understand serious things about us. Also for once, I'm standing up for myself, I have a voice and will he heard. I have deep feelings as anyone else. To have to endure things she said so callously and coldly, well if you've read the whole thread, then no sense repeating.

Good start, but be weary. Didn't you tell her she would have to take poly? If so, knew of 1 previous guy that wife started the counseling and divulged her infidelitIES in counseling group before the poly. So she could say she told him(threw a grenade) about it, when she was hoping he would not continue with the poly, so he would not find (the dirty bomb) she was still hiding. 🤔

 

[TinyTbone]

The polygraph has not left the table. Also I will ensure councelor is aware of this.

 

[Divinely Favored]

Make sure before a poly that they don't take psych meds or muscle relaxer, etc as these can cause off readings, but even an inconclusive result still gets paid for. When we had parolee get that, we would UA them and sure enough...positive UA

 

[Affaircare]

@TinyTbone ,

You know I'm your biggest fan, but I do want to remind you of two things:

1) A counselor is a human being. If one party lies or is elusive, a counselor can not just "detect" that it is not the truth and thus hold their feet to the fire. Likewise, they aren't a lie-detector! LOL. So don't expect a counselor to be a referee and say "Whistle! Red flag for lying--now MrsT tell the real truth." To another human outsider (someone who hasn't lived in your household for decades), half-truths may be convincing. Crocodile tears may fuel compassion.

In other words, don't expect a lie-detecting referee. Expect a person to hear your side and her side and try to let you both talk and try to help the two of you learn skills to talk to each other. On the occasion, they might step in and say "Um, now that's a bit on the harsh side so can you rephrase that in an I-Statement way?" They aren't infallible, so don't expect the hammer of justice as skillfully as we wield the Ban Hammer here on TAM.

2) Booking counseling does not equal change. That just means an appointment was made. Now let her demonstrate to you in a long-term and consistent way by her ACTIONS that she will put in the hard work to change! That means let MrsT get her own butt to the appointment--don't "remind" her and keep bringing it up. Either she wants to get there enough to remember...or she doesn't. Let MrsT be afraid and face herself. Let her practice being transparent with you. Let MrsT treat you in a way that is more healthy and respectful...over a long timeframe.

Because here's the thing: it could be that she's desperate. For the first time, she's thinking "Wow he really may mean it" and she doesn't want to lose her lifestyle. Does she want to face herself and her demons? HARD NO! But she'll promise the moon and the stars! She'll make the appointments...and "forget"...and delay...and get there and cry...and not do the homework...and avoid the changes... all so she doesn't have to lose her lifestyle.

It also could be that she means it and really sees that she needs to make a change in herself. Okay...that does take some time but what I've found is that when people REALLY want something, they find a way. If she REALLY wants to be a different and better person, she may not be great at it at first, but she will get her own butt to the counseling, she'll buy the relationship books and devour them, she'll practice a new skill--be bad at it--try again--be a little better--try again. Of her own accord, she will face what she's done, call it be name, not sugarcoat it or minimize, work the work and walk the walk. Right? If THIS is not what you see...then she's desperate and you'll see what I wrote above.

And to see all this, it does take some time. She won't "change" in one week. She may make promises, but to rebuild can take YEARS, and to re-establish intimacy and trust takes real change.

 

[Trident]

This is very good news to hear indeed. It shows to me that she does value us greatly.

It only means that she believes you're serious about moving towards ending the relationship and that is not something she wants at this time.

Her reasons are open to interpretation but her past actions don't seem to support your belief that she "values us" greatly. It could be nothing more than her fear of having to start over again, the unknown, the huge life changes that come with divorce, and the worsening financial situation. Lots of people stay in bad marriages for those reasons.

If it's not for the right reasons you'll see it over time in her unwillingness to do the heavy lifting and at that point continued threats and ultimatums are pointless.

 

[TinyTbone]

It only means that she believes you're serious about moving towards ending the relationship and that is not something she wants at this time.

Her reasons are open to interpretation but her past actions don't seem to support your belief that she "values us" greatly. It could be nothing more than her fear of having to start over again, the unknown, the huge life changes that come with divorce, and the worsening financial situation. Lots of people stay in bad marriages for those reasons.

If it's not for the right reasons you'll see it over time in her unwillingness to do the heavy lifting and at that point continued threats and ultimatums are pointless.

There are no ultimatums. I'm not fighting. Not begging. If she will do what's needed to be done fine. Baby steps in trust, for both of us. As I've said, I'm no saint. I was hard to love and hard to live with at times. As I asked her, then if you weren't happy why did you choose to stay? Her answer was love. I've told her it takes more than just love to be happy.
I'm not just going to run back to her, going oh baby, I'm so sorry I was angry and hurt. My bad. No this is different this time.

 

[DosEquis]

Consequences. She must face herself now. This is a reckoning of sorts. Theres nowhere to run, nowhere to hide any more. I have done as the scriptures told us, and turned the other cheek. The slaps are done.

Gently, the scriptures also tell us that we are not to cast our pearls before swine (I am not saying your wife is a pig but you get the meaning here....dont let the treasure of your life and love be trampled)