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Hi All,
Obviously I’m new to the site and only 3 weeks out from my DS PA D-Day. I will create a separate post requesting some other advice I need pertaining to on my specific crazy situation.

This post is a more generic help request that may benefit others as well.

So, I cannot stand the Trickle Truths I’m getting/uncovering. So I thought that I would give her the following request, in her own handwriting, to write what happened. Please give me advice on what I’m missing, good ideas, bad ideas, and where I’m going over the line. Also, tone, word choice, grammar and spell-check are always appreciated… I’m mentally spent.

My goals being:
1) stop the lies (omission included).

2) box her in on the truth, making harder to twist/lie about what happened. Also, detect inconsistencies.

3) have a written record to avoid the typical DS “I didn’t say/mean that” backtracking

4) have a written record to refute the secret lies that she has been spreading about me/us to friends and family. Also helpful if issues/stories arise years from now (I know those “fuzzy” recollections will).

5) Be a starting point for her to look me in the eyes and SAY IT ALL. A conversation outline if you will.

6) Have a record/story for the marriage counselor when we start MC. I’m not going to waste my time in sessions 1)prying out truths or 2)for her downplay/massage what occurred. Get all the EAs/PAs on the table from day 1 of MC (idealistic, I know).

7) Know all the names of the guys involved for future use/watchlist

8) Uncover the toxic/enabling friends & family

Ok here’s my written request to the DS:

“Dear <DS>,
You need to be completely open and honest with me about what has occurred over the course of our relationship (dating through current day). I will not seek reconcilement if I continue to be lied to – either directly, with the twisting of facts, or by omitting information.

I know you continue to lie to me - this is completely destructive to any chance of reconciliation. Continuing to lie to me demonstrates: 1) you are not taking responsibility for your actions 2) you lack integrity and are untrustworthy 3) you continue to attempt to manipulate me 4) you have no respect for me or our relationship 5) you will not change.

I know you want to avoid discussing, confessing, and drudging up things that you think I may or may not know. Well, it’s time for you take accountability for ALL of your actions and also give me piece of mind. Only then do we have a chance of a real reconciliation. Otherwise, I will leave you and never look back.

This is it <DS>, this is your chance to tell the full truth and correct all the previous lies. Let me stress, THIS IS IT, THIS IS THE MOMENT. Be wise; lay it all out on the table. If your mind says “I don’t know if he knows this thing, should I write it down?” DO IT! Every time that thought crosses your mind, remember this and DO IT – DO NOT OMMIT, TWIST, OR MANIPULATE information!

I want you to handwrite, in ink please, a full account of your misbehaviors over the course of our entire relationship. I want the following:

All the men (and if any women). For each person:

1) full name
2) age
3) job
4) where they live
5) their phone numbers, email addresses, fb names, etc.
6) were they in a relationship, if so, type of relationship
7) do they have children
8) how you met
9) key dates
10) all manners/extent of communication (FB, texting, phone, in-person)
11) how many conversations
12) what was discussed/shared – both emotional and s6xual. Did you say you loved the person, did they you? Also, how specifically did you put me and/or us down.
13) whether you met in person
14) were there explicit photos/videos sent by either person
15) physically – I do not want specific play by play details, just list all the following that apply with frequency, key dates, and where it occurred: meeting up, hugging, handholding, kissing, cuddling, foreplay, removing clothes/nudity, masturbation, oral, intercourse, anal, etc. Of course, whether condoms were used or not.
16) Why and how did it end
17) Have either of you tried to be in communication since <Enter D-DAY>

List all friends & family who know anything about these events - either before, during or after:

1) When did they find out
2) How did they find out
3) What was their reaction (besides surprised)
4) Did their significant other know, when?
5) Did they encourage, discourage, or remain neutral (be specific)
6) Did they help you with it in anyway (e.g. introductions, giving you dating advise, relaying communications, giving you advise on how to conceal this, providing cover, directly lying to me, etc.).
7) Did they directly meet or speak (talk or text) to the guy
8) How have you badmouth me and/or our relationship to them.
9) How have you misled, exaggerated, omitted, or let falsities hang in the air with them about me and/or us. Our general relationship as well as the events in question. Be very specific.
10) Have they cheated in anyway themselves, when, with who, does their significant other know?
11) Do they sincerely want us to be together, are indifferent, or want us to be apart (what they tell you, plus your gut instincts).
12) What is their current opinion of me

Anything you also think I would like to know, or be upset not knowing, write it down.

As you can tell, I want a thorough & full disclosure. Write, write, write. If you finish writing, and realize you need to go back to add something else, just have a footnoted addendum/extra pages.

I’m only willing to go to counseling and attempt reconciliation IF you give me the full truth. Healing starts with truth, so woman-up or I’m gone forever.

Love,
Your Husband


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35yr Male, Never EA'd or PA'd. No Kids. 2nd marriage 2nd time dealing with disloyal wife. EAs & PAs both times.
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1st Marriage: 2002 to 2004. Unfaithful Wife Left. I attempted a full court R, but she left w/ OM.
2nd Marriage: 2010 – present (2yrs). Mentally ill DW. Marriage has been a nightmare for me due to her severe clinical mental illnesses. She wants an R, I’m struggling with that prospect..
2nd Marriage PA D-day Oct 19th 2012. Attempted PAs with 10-15 other men.
 

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WOWZA!!!

Just use a recording device....ask her questions, let her answer.but believe me, she wont answer honestly for quite some time......they never do!
 

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Sounds like you're asking too much.

Not that you're being unreasonable.. it's just that she doesn't seem to be in that place where she's ready to come clean.

She may never be.

Good luck
 

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10-15 guys?

How can you even fathom reconciliation? This isn't a mistake or lapse in judgement - this is the very essence of her nature.

Move on buddy...quickly!
 

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This was mine after months of TT: (it's a bit on the pansy side and prior to me going full Desden bombing on her) The ending was awfully misguided and I'd delete it now.. It took 8 months to finally get 28 pages of confession out of her.. it was also missing a ton.

I wrote this out so you have clear direction. I’m sending this to your blackberry, but will print out a hard copy since it’s rather long. Even if you have told me before, it needs to be restated simply because the stories have changed and I can’t keep track of the latest version and there’s probably some truth of what I know mixed in with some lies and omissions. So start it over as if I know nothing.

We need to get rid of all the lies and secrecy that became a large part of my relationship with you for quite some time. There are really four things I need to understand the affairs;

1. The facts (what did you do) in a nice orderly time line (who, what, when, where, and how). I know you have worked on this and it needs to include ALL relationships where you crossed the marriage boundaries from the time we were dating. Try to be as specific as possible, including your methods. I’d use a calendar and mark out Who, What, When, Where. I know this is hard, particularly since you deleted everything, but I need to know how much since I’ve heard entirely too many versions. It would also help me remember if you could put in other memorable events; changing offices or jobs, holidays, vacations, etc.

As for specifics such as intimate details, you can spare me. I do want to know how it was different than me. Particularly after skimming OM2’s valentines day present to you, I really wonder.

2. For how, I need to know the lies you told (or hid) from me. How did you keep this a secret? This needs to be very, very specific on everything you did to keep this from me and everyone else. Restate things I already know like deleting call logs. You had a few substantial relationships I knew very little about. How did you keep this up? It is also critically important to cover all the way up to now. This does mean writing out and giving me access to every single thing regardless of whether you think I already know it or not; all the contact information. I can even provide full call logs if it helps. This also needs for me to know what to look for; I need all the phone numbers, places you met, etc. and things like where they are now, what places are “theirs” like favorite hangouts, coffee shops, etc.. If things changed, I need it too like where OM2 currently lives. If you know it, then I should know it.

I also need to know who knew, when they knew and what they knew (I assume you lied to others as well).

3. The thoughts and justifications; What were you thinking at the time? This should also follow a time line of sorts. I doubt you always felt the same, but I don’t know how this corresponds to your relationships or were the same for each relationship. These are the things you told and sold yourself to make it ok.
Clarified for her back in April. Her thoughts should cover both our relationship and her outside relationships.

4. The looking back thoughts; What has changed, what justifications were “untrue” and what were real issues that we do need to address that you still believe. This might be easier to do after listing out your thoughts and justifications at the time. It also isn’t just about you & me or just your feelings about yourself. You haven’t really told me how you felt about them beyond a few basic comments. I need you to really think about it. I think the time line will help you think about this and might clarify some things for you. Like your changing OM2 attitude after starting it up with OM3. And why that didn’t happen with OM1, and so forth. You need to be thinking about it.

It is hard, doesn’t do much for your self-image and so forth, and I also know it is a lot; my feeling on this is that had you started this back in the first marriage counciling, by this time all those questions we would of been over by now. Please give me a quick deep cut so I can start to heal instead of this drawn out torture which only serves to be a constant reminder and massively damages my belief in you with each little cut. You will simply have to believe me when I tell you I’d rather be hurt deeply all at once then go through another discovery. I’d think you’d want to just do this once as well instead of dragging it out. Don’t fear my reaction, just trust that I want to move forward and need this to do so even if it really hurts me in the short term. If you can’t do this for any reason what so ever by our next session to talk about, or feel the need to intentionally omit, lie, downplay, etc., I’d suggest you just talk to me and the councilor to figure out why. My imagination & suspicion at this point is probably worse than the truth.

If it helps, you can spread it out a bit and expand over the next couple weeks. So, start with #1 & #2 this week so we can talk about it at the councilor on the 18th. Then prior to the next weeks appointment, expand and add #3 and #4. I probably won’t be able to ask specific questions until you get through this, and even then, I may not have too many if you’ve been fairly specific and explained it to me.

Editor Note (added for this post since I'd update this thing myself over and over); I was talking about March 2010. I am writing this April 28 (revised 5/10). So far, she’s about half way through 1 & 2, but the level of detail lacking is quite a lot. The level of effort she is putting into healing the big issues in the marriage is disappointing at best. I have revised it yet again with the 3rd revisions on May 4, 2010. She has been unemployed two weeks so far too, so finding time isn’t the hangup.​
Then after that, I’d want to talk about things we can do so you’d feel that way about me again. So please don’t take this as “all about you”; right now, you have all the secrets so I can’t cope or even really know where to focus. I need to understand what led you to this so I can lead you back to me. I’m not perfect or without faults, but what you think you want from me hasn’t been working as far as I can tell when I try to give it; I’m not sure if I’m not doing the right things, or if you aren’t sure of what you need (since what you say and what you do aren’t supporting each other). So, maybe if we understand what they did that I did not, and using our knowledge of what we were doing to each other, we can both understand our own desires and each others and strive to fulfill those roles for each other.
 

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Chastity belts are expensive and a pain to get fit right...trust me.

Anyway, it took Mrs. the -guy weeks/months to recall 13 years of this kind of info. Yours will need some time. Hell, it took my wife a day to just count all of the OM's. Sure you will get some accurate info, about the guys she was faund of and spent some time with....but the one night stands....well forget about that. You might get the bar they met and were they did it, but the rest of the ONS's will not only be to humiliating and shameful to recall, but also unatainable due to the booze.

You might want to revise and make more of an out line with regards to how many and how long, then break it down to LTA and ONS.

In may case, it seemed to work best. again it was easier to come up with a number then going over the guys that lasted more then a week and then go to the ONS.
 

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polygraph.

But, my real advice is to dump her. Why bother reconciling with such a person? But if you must, then forget about games with her writing down details she likely doesn't remember anyway. Make her submit to a polygraph.
 

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10 to 15 om... Are you sure you want to r. Maybe you should think about it for a little longer.
Posted via Mobile Device
 

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Um, why are you wanting to reconcile?

Also, second marriage same problems. Stay single for a while, work on building up your self esteem so you choose better partners in the future.
 

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Come to think of it we broke down my fWW PA's/EA's in three groups it was LTA and ONS, but also STA.

She broke it down to 2 LTA, 7 STA, and 10 ONS

With this grouping she had alot more info on the 2 LTA's so the out line was longer and more in depth, were as the ONS were way shorter and only had like 3 line items (when and were and who if she was luck enought to remember). The STA were not nearly as long when it came to the info but it wasn;t as short as the ONS, she remember for the most part what they did for a living and if they had kids.

What interesting though...as painful as it was I found a general SOP and MO in her adultorus behavior/life style.
 

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The only way is for her to fight any attemp to control anything. She needs to give up the control of the outcome. Just let it go.
This and paper bag to assist the written confession.
A calendar and the photo album might help her memory.

CSATs help their clients to make "official" disclosures to partners.

I asume trolling internet for hook ups.
I asume bipolar.
 

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This was mine after months of TT: (it's a bit on the pansy side and prior to me going full Desden bombing on her) The ending was awfully misguided and I'd delete it now.. It took 8 months to finally get 28 pages of confession out of her.. it was also missing a ton.

I wrote this out so you have clear direction. I’m sending this to your blackberry, but will print out a hard copy since it’s rather long. Even if you have told me before, it needs to be restated simply because the stories have changed and I can’t keep track of the latest version and there’s probably some truth of what I know mixed in with some lies and omissions. So start it over as if I know nothing.

We need to get rid of all the lies and secrecy that became a large part of my relationship with you for quite some time. There are really four things I need to understand the affairs;

1. The facts (what did you do) in a nice orderly time line (who, what, when, where, and how). I know you have worked on this and it needs to include ALL relationships where you crossed the marriage boundaries from the time we were dating. Try to be as specific as possible, including your methods. I’d use a calendar and mark out Who, What, When, Where. I know this is hard, particularly since you deleted everything, but I need to know how much since I’ve heard entirely too many versions. It would also help me remember if you could put in other memorable events; changing offices or jobs, holidays, vacations, etc.

As for specifics such as intimate details, you can spare me. I do want to know how it was different than me. Particularly after skimming OM2’s valentines day present to you, I really wonder.

2. For how, I need to know the lies you told (or hid) from me. How did you keep this a secret? This needs to be very, very specific on everything you did to keep this from me and everyone else. Restate things I already know like deleting call logs. You had a few substantial relationships I knew very little about. How did you keep this up? It is also critically important to cover all the way up to now. This does mean writing out and giving me access to every single thing regardless of whether you think I already know it or not; all the contact information. I can even provide full call logs if it helps. This also needs for me to know what to look for; I need all the phone numbers, places you met, etc. and things like where they are now, what places are “theirs” like favorite hangouts, coffee shops, etc.. If things changed, I need it too like where OM2 currently lives. If you know it, then I should know it.

I also need to know who knew, when they knew and what they knew (I assume you lied to others as well).

3. The thoughts and justifications; What were you thinking at the time? This should also follow a time line of sorts. I doubt you always felt the same, but I don’t know how this corresponds to your relationships or were the same for each relationship. These are the things you told and sold yourself to make it ok.
Clarified for her back in April. Her thoughts should cover both our relationship and her outside relationships.

4. The looking back thoughts; What has changed, what justifications were “untrue” and what were real issues that we do need to address that you still believe. This might be easier to do after listing out your thoughts and justifications at the time. It also isn’t just about you & me or just your feelings about yourself. You haven’t really told me how you felt about them beyond a few basic comments. I need you to really think about it. I think the time line will help you think about this and might clarify some things for you. Like your changing OM2 attitude after starting it up with OM3. And why that didn’t happen with OM1, and so forth. You need to be thinking about it.

It is hard, doesn’t do much for your self-image and so forth, and I also know it is a lot; my feeling on this is that had you started this back in the first marriage counciling, by this time all those questions we would of been over by now. Please give me a quick deep cut so I can start to heal instead of this drawn out torture which only serves to be a constant reminder and massively damages my belief in you with each little cut. You will simply have to believe me when I tell you I’d rather be hurt deeply all at once then go through another discovery. I’d think you’d want to just do this once as well instead of dragging it out. Don’t fear my reaction, just trust that I want to move forward and need this to do so even if it really hurts me in the short term. If you can’t do this for any reason what so ever by our next session to talk about, or feel the need to intentionally omit, lie, downplay, etc., I’d suggest you just talk to me and the councilor to figure out why. My imagination & suspicion at this point is probably worse than the truth.

If it helps, you can spread it out a bit and expand over the next couple weeks. So, start with #1 & #2 this week so we can talk about it at the councilor on the 18th. Then prior to the next weeks appointment, expand and add #3 and #4. I probably won’t be able to ask specific questions until you get through this, and even then, I may not have too many if you’ve been fairly specific and explained it to me.

Editor Note (added for this post since I'd update this thing myself over and over); I was talking about March 2010. I am writing this April 28 (revised 5/10). So far, she’s about half way through 1 & 2, but the level of detail lacking is quite a lot. The level of effort she is putting into healing the big issues in the marriage is disappointing at best. I have revised it yet again with the 3rd revisions on May 4, 2010. She has been unemployed two weeks so far too, so finding time isn’t the hangup.​
Then after that, I’d want to talk about things we can do so you’d feel that way about me again. So please don’t take this as “all about you”; right now, you have all the secrets so I can’t cope or even really know where to focus. I need to understand what led you to this so I can lead you back to me. I’m not perfect or without faults, but what you think you want from me hasn’t been working as far as I can tell when I try to give it; I’m not sure if I’m not doing the right things, or if you aren’t sure of what you need (since what you say and what you do aren’t supporting each other). So, maybe if we understand what they did that I did not, and using our knowledge of what we were doing to each other, we can both understand our own desires and each others and strive to fulfill those roles for each other.
Good to go.
 

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Hi All,
Obviously I’m new to the site and only 3 weeks out from my DS PA D-Day. I will create a separate post requesting some other advice I need pertaining to on my specific crazy situation.

This post is a more generic help request that may benefit others as well.

So, I cannot stand the Trickle Truths I’m getting/uncovering. So I thought that I would give her the following request, in her own handwriting, to write what happened. Please give me advice on what I’m missing, good ideas, bad ideas, and where I’m going over the line. Also, tone, word choice, grammar and spell-check are always appreciated… I’m mentally spent.

My goals being:
1) stop the lies (omission included).

2) box her in on the truth, making harder to twist/lie about what happened. Also, detect inconsistencies.

3) have a written record to avoid the typical DS “I didn’t say/mean that” backtracking

4) have a written record to refute the secret lies that she has been spreading about me/us to friends and family. Also helpful if issues/stories arise years from now (I know those “fuzzy” recollections will).

5) Be a starting point for her to look me in the eyes and SAY IT ALL. A conversation outline if you will.

6) Have a record/story for the marriage counselor when we start MC. I’m not going to waste my time in sessions 1)prying out truths or 2)for her downplay/massage what occurred. Get all the EAs/PAs on the table from day 1 of MC (idealistic, I know).

7) Know all the names of the guys involved for future use/watchlist

8) Uncover the toxic/enabling friends & family

Ok here’s my written request to the DS:

“Dear <DS>,
You need to be completely open and honest with me about what has occurred over the course of our relationship (dating through current day). I will not seek reconcilement if I continue to be lied to – either directly, with the twisting of facts, or by omitting information.

I know you continue to lie to me - this is completely destructive to any chance of reconciliation. Continuing to lie to me demonstrates: 1) you are not taking responsibility for your actions 2) you lack integrity and are untrustworthy 3) you continue to attempt to manipulate me 4) you have no respect for me or our relationship 5) you will not change.

I know you want to avoid discussing, confessing, and drudging up things that you think I may or may not know. Well, it’s time for you take accountability for ALL of your actions and also give me piece of mind. Only then do we have a chance of a real reconciliation. Otherwise, I will leave you and never look back.

This is it <DS>, this is your chance to tell the full truth and correct all the previous lies. Let me stress, THIS IS IT, THIS IS THE MOMENT. Be wise; lay it all out on the table. If your mind says “I don’t know if he knows this thing, should I write it down?” DO IT! Every time that thought crosses your mind, remember this and DO IT – DO NOT OMMIT, TWIST, OR MANIPULATE information!

I want you to handwrite, in ink please, a full account of your misbehaviors over the course of our entire relationship. I want the following:

All the men (and if any women). For each person:

1) full name
2) age
3) job
4) where they live
5) their phone numbers, email addresses, fb names, etc.
6) were they in a relationship, if so, type of relationship
7) do they have children
8) how you met
9) key dates
10) all manners/extent of communication (FB, texting, phone, in-person)
11) how many conversations
12) what was discussed/shared – both emotional and s6xual. Did you say you loved the person, did they you? Also, how specifically did you put me and/or us down.
13) whether you met in person
14) were there explicit photos/videos sent by either person
15) physically – I do not want specific play by play details, just list all the following that apply with frequency, key dates, and where it occurred: meeting up, hugging, handholding, kissing, cuddling, foreplay, removing clothes/nudity, masturbation, oral, intercourse, anal, etc. Of course, whether condoms were used or not.
16) Why and how did it end
17) Have either of you tried to be in communication since <Enter D-DAY>

List all friends & family who know anything about these events - either before, during or after:

1) When did they find out
2) How did they find out
3) What was their reaction (besides surprised)
4) Did their significant other know, when?
5) Did they encourage, discourage, or remain neutral (be specific)
6) Did they help you with it in anyway (e.g. introductions, giving you dating advise, relaying communications, giving you advise on how to conceal this, providing cover, directly lying to me, etc.).
7) Did they directly meet or speak (talk or text) to the guy
8) How have you badmouth me and/or our relationship to them.
9) How have you misled, exaggerated, omitted, or let falsities hang in the air with them about me and/or us. Our general relationship as well as the events in question. Be very specific.
10) Have they cheated in anyway themselves, when, with who, does their significant other know?
11) Do they sincerely want us to be together, are indifferent, or want us to be apart (what they tell you, plus your gut instincts).
12) What is their current opinion of me

Anything you also think I would like to know, or be upset not knowing, write it down.

As you can tell, I want a thorough & full disclosure. Write, write, write. If you finish writing, and realize you need to go back to add something else, just have a footnoted addendum/extra pages.

I’m only willing to go to counseling and attempt reconciliation IF you give me the full truth. Healing starts with truth, so woman-up or I’m gone forever.

Love,
Your Husband


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35yr Male, Never EA'd or PA'd. No Kids. 2nd marriage 2nd time dealing with disloyal wife. EAs & PAs both times.
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1st Marriage: 2002 to 2004. Unfaithful Wife Left. I attempted a full court R, but she left w/ OM.
2nd Marriage: 2010 – present (2yrs). Mentally ill DW. Marriage has been a nightmare for me due to her severe clinical mental illnesses. She wants an R, I’m struggling with that prospect..
2nd Marriage PA D-day Oct 19th 2012. Attempted PAs with 10-15 other men.
:eek::eek::eek: Yikes!
 

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Really helpful Racer - I'm going to incorporate some of that into my request.

Glad to know I'm not the only one thinking along these lines/demands.
Ya.. Mine was a multiple. Not so much trolling as it was vindictive against me and an issue where she believes 'casual sexual contact' (like making out) is alright with any friendship as long as it keeps private. Some developed to "more". :rolleyes:

And you need the timeline with multiples. As she talks, she'd mix it up and it was hard keeping track in your head (and in hers). Things would get mashed together. It was also helpful to fill in significant dates to trigger memories... Like the day we signed a mortgage was also a day she took off and spent with him (that was months before she remembered when it started). So expect a ton of revisions... Not specifically because she's trying to decieve, but because they spend so much time downplaying and excusing themselves that their memory starts believing their own bull. Sort of like you going back in time and trying to remember when you started doing a specific project; Your brain tells you it wasn't that long ago, but if you can tie it to something else going on at the time, you'll find approximate dates...

I still laugh at her insanity. In a super long written confession, she never uses the word "sex" or any other vulgar term for sex. "We did it." was at best, but the usual was "went to movies, then back to his place" to let me fill the blanks of what that meant. Part of ripping her apart was to make her go back and write "we fck'd" each and every time. It took her a couple tear filled hours writing it in and understanding the extent of her sin. They just don't think in those terms... It's funny; If you ask, she'd tell you maybe it was a dozen times (downplayed). Write it down on the time line, and it's hundreds.
 

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The problem with a cheating spouse, is that they will not come clean. Lying and dishonesty is in their nature - which is why they cheated in the first place. So even with the requests, you will never really know the whole truth. My STBXW confessed to one EA (three years ago). We tried to reconcile - but it never really worked. Then, after we separated (almost two months with her moving out one month ago), she admitted that the EA had morphed into a PA. THEN, when I contacted the POS OM (who is now married with a new child - and had cheated on his fiance (now wife) with my STBXW) my STBXW wrote to me that she had made up the PA. Still covering up for the POS OM! So either way, she has basically lost all credibility. I suspect that the PA was not the only one either. Too many opportunities.

Remember, the cheating spouse lies as a matter of habit when it comes to their cheating. If they were honest, they would have worked on the marriage OR left the marriage before seeking other partners. Even if you get a "full" confession, will you be satisfied that it is really a "full" confession?

(BTW, I refer to my STBXW. In Canada, you need to be separated a minimum 12 months before a divorce. It's only been 2 months - 10 to go. And then there is the house and division of assets... So maybe I should refer to her as my Eventually To Be X-wife?)
 
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