2nd Marriage PA D-day Oct 19th 2012. Attempted PAs with 10-15 other men.
You are young still, MOVE ON...35yr Male, No Kids.
Good to go.This was mine after months of TT: (it's a bit on the pansy side and prior to me going full Desden bombing on her) The ending was awfully misguided and I'd delete it now.. It took 8 months to finally get 28 pages of confession out of her.. it was also missing a ton.
I wrote this out so you have clear direction. I’m sending this to your blackberry, but will print out a hard copy since it’s rather long. Even if you have told me before, it needs to be restated simply because the stories have changed and I can’t keep track of the latest version and there’s probably some truth of what I know mixed in with some lies and omissions. So start it over as if I know nothing.
We need to get rid of all the lies and secrecy that became a large part of my relationship with you for quite some time. There are really four things I need to understand the affairs;
1. The facts (what did you do) in a nice orderly time line (who, what, when, where, and how). I know you have worked on this and it needs to include ALL relationships where you crossed the marriage boundaries from the time we were dating. Try to be as specific as possible, including your methods. I’d use a calendar and mark out Who, What, When, Where. I know this is hard, particularly since you deleted everything, but I need to know how much since I’ve heard entirely too many versions. It would also help me remember if you could put in other memorable events; changing offices or jobs, holidays, vacations, etc.
As for specifics such as intimate details, you can spare me. I do want to know how it was different than me. Particularly after skimming OM2’s valentines day present to you, I really wonder.
2. For how, I need to know the lies you told (or hid) from me. How did you keep this a secret? This needs to be very, very specific on everything you did to keep this from me and everyone else. Restate things I already know like deleting call logs. You had a few substantial relationships I knew very little about. How did you keep this up? It is also critically important to cover all the way up to now. This does mean writing out and giving me access to every single thing regardless of whether you think I already know it or not; all the contact information. I can even provide full call logs if it helps. This also needs for me to know what to look for; I need all the phone numbers, places you met, etc. and things like where they are now, what places are “theirs” like favorite hangouts, coffee shops, etc.. If things changed, I need it too like where OM2 currently lives. If you know it, then I should know it.
I also need to know who knew, when they knew and what they knew (I assume you lied to others as well).
3. The thoughts and justifications; What were you thinking at the time? This should also follow a time line of sorts. I doubt you always felt the same, but I don’t know how this corresponds to your relationships or were the same for each relationship. These are the things you told and sold yourself to make it ok.
Clarified for her back in April. Her thoughts should cover both our relationship and her outside relationships.
4. The looking back thoughts; What has changed, what justifications were “untrue” and what were real issues that we do need to address that you still believe. This might be easier to do after listing out your thoughts and justifications at the time. It also isn’t just about you & me or just your feelings about yourself. You haven’t really told me how you felt about them beyond a few basic comments. I need you to really think about it. I think the time line will help you think about this and might clarify some things for you. Like your changing OM2 attitude after starting it up with OM3. And why that didn’t happen with OM1, and so forth. You need to be thinking about it.
It is hard, doesn’t do much for your self-image and so forth, and I also know it is a lot; my feeling on this is that had you started this back in the first marriage counciling, by this time all those questions we would of been over by now. Please give me a quick deep cut so I can start to heal instead of this drawn out torture which only serves to be a constant reminder and massively damages my belief in you with each little cut. You will simply have to believe me when I tell you I’d rather be hurt deeply all at once then go through another discovery. I’d think you’d want to just do this once as well instead of dragging it out. Don’t fear my reaction, just trust that I want to move forward and need this to do so even if it really hurts me in the short term. If you can’t do this for any reason what so ever by our next session to talk about, or feel the need to intentionally omit, lie, downplay, etc., I’d suggest you just talk to me and the councilor to figure out why. My imagination & suspicion at this point is probably worse than the truth.
If it helps, you can spread it out a bit and expand over the next couple weeks. So, start with #1 & #2 this week so we can talk about it at the councilor on the 18th. Then prior to the next weeks appointment, expand and add #3 and #4. I probably won’t be able to ask specific questions until you get through this, and even then, I may not have too many if you’ve been fairly specific and explained it to me.
Editor Note (added for this post since I'd update this thing myself over and over); I was talking about March 2010. I am writing this April 28 (revised 5/10). So far, she’s about half way through 1 & 2, but the level of detail lacking is quite a lot. The level of effort she is putting into healing the big issues in the marriage is disappointing at best. I have revised it yet again with the 3rd revisions on May 4, 2010. She has been unemployed two weeks so far too, so finding time isn’t the hangup.Then after that, I’d want to talk about things we can do so you’d feel that way about me again. So please don’t take this as “all about you”; right now, you have all the secrets so I can’t cope or even really know where to focus. I need to understand what led you to this so I can lead you back to me. I’m not perfect or without faults, but what you think you want from me hasn’t been working as far as I can tell when I try to give it; I’m not sure if I’m not doing the right things, or if you aren’t sure of what you need (since what you say and what you do aren’t supporting each other). So, maybe if we understand what they did that I did not, and using our knowledge of what we were doing to each other, we can both understand our own desires and each others and strive to fulfill those roles for each other.
Hi All,
Obviously I’m new to the site and only 3 weeks out from my DS PA D-Day. I will create a separate post requesting some other advice I need pertaining to on my specific crazy situation.
This post is a more generic help request that may benefit others as well.
So, I cannot stand the Trickle Truths I’m getting/uncovering. So I thought that I would give her the following request, in her own handwriting, to write what happened. Please give me advice on what I’m missing, good ideas, bad ideas, and where I’m going over the line. Also, tone, word choice, grammar and spell-check are always appreciated… I’m mentally spent.
My goals being:
1) stop the lies (omission included).
2) box her in on the truth, making harder to twist/lie about what happened. Also, detect inconsistencies.
3) have a written record to avoid the typical DS “I didn’t say/mean that” backtracking
4) have a written record to refute the secret lies that she has been spreading about me/us to friends and family. Also helpful if issues/stories arise years from now (I know those “fuzzy” recollections will).
5) Be a starting point for her to look me in the eyes and SAY IT ALL. A conversation outline if you will.
6) Have a record/story for the marriage counselor when we start MC. I’m not going to waste my time in sessions 1)prying out truths or 2)for her downplay/massage what occurred. Get all the EAs/PAs on the table from day 1 of MC (idealistic, I know).
7) Know all the names of the guys involved for future use/watchlist
8) Uncover the toxic/enabling friends & family
Ok here’s my written request to the DS:
“Dear <DS>,
You need to be completely open and honest with me about what has occurred over the course of our relationship (dating through current day). I will not seek reconcilement if I continue to be lied to – either directly, with the twisting of facts, or by omitting information.
I know you continue to lie to me - this is completely destructive to any chance of reconciliation. Continuing to lie to me demonstrates: 1) you are not taking responsibility for your actions 2) you lack integrity and are untrustworthy 3) you continue to attempt to manipulate me 4) you have no respect for me or our relationship 5) you will not change.
I know you want to avoid discussing, confessing, and drudging up things that you think I may or may not know. Well, it’s time for you take accountability for ALL of your actions and also give me piece of mind. Only then do we have a chance of a real reconciliation. Otherwise, I will leave you and never look back.
This is it <DS>, this is your chance to tell the full truth and correct all the previous lies. Let me stress, THIS IS IT, THIS IS THE MOMENT. Be wise; lay it all out on the table. If your mind says “I don’t know if he knows this thing, should I write it down?” DO IT! Every time that thought crosses your mind, remember this and DO IT – DO NOT OMMIT, TWIST, OR MANIPULATE information!
I want you to handwrite, in ink please, a full account of your misbehaviors over the course of our entire relationship. I want the following:
All the men (and if any women). For each person:
1) full name
2) age
3) job
4) where they live
5) their phone numbers, email addresses, fb names, etc.
6) were they in a relationship, if so, type of relationship
7) do they have children
8) how you met
9) key dates
10) all manners/extent of communication (FB, texting, phone, in-person)
11) how many conversations
12) what was discussed/shared – both emotional and s6xual. Did you say you loved the person, did they you? Also, how specifically did you put me and/or us down.
13) whether you met in person
14) were there explicit photos/videos sent by either person
15) physically – I do not want specific play by play details, just list all the following that apply with frequency, key dates, and where it occurred: meeting up, hugging, handholding, kissing, cuddling, foreplay, removing clothes/nudity, masturbation, oral, intercourse, anal, etc. Of course, whether condoms were used or not.
16) Why and how did it end
17) Have either of you tried to be in communication since <Enter D-DAY>
List all friends & family who know anything about these events - either before, during or after:
1) When did they find out
2) How did they find out
3) What was their reaction (besides surprised)
4) Did their significant other know, when?
5) Did they encourage, discourage, or remain neutral (be specific)
6) Did they help you with it in anyway (e.g. introductions, giving you dating advise, relaying communications, giving you advise on how to conceal this, providing cover, directly lying to me, etc.).
7) Did they directly meet or speak (talk or text) to the guy
8) How have you badmouth me and/or our relationship to them.
9) How have you misled, exaggerated, omitted, or let falsities hang in the air with them about me and/or us. Our general relationship as well as the events in question. Be very specific.
10) Have they cheated in anyway themselves, when, with who, does their significant other know?
11) Do they sincerely want us to be together, are indifferent, or want us to be apart (what they tell you, plus your gut instincts).
12) What is their current opinion of me
Anything you also think I would like to know, or be upset not knowing, write it down.
As you can tell, I want a thorough & full disclosure. Write, write, write. If you finish writing, and realize you need to go back to add something else, just have a footnoted addendum/extra pages.
I’m only willing to go to counseling and attempt reconciliation IF you give me the full truth. Healing starts with truth, so woman-up or I’m gone forever.
Love,
Your Husband
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35yr Male, Never EA'd or PA'd. No Kids. 2nd marriage 2nd time dealing with disloyal wife. EAs & PAs both times.
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1st Marriage: 2002 to 2004. Unfaithful Wife Left. I attempted a full court R, but she left w/ OM.
2nd Marriage: 2010 – present (2yrs). Mentally ill DW. Marriage has been a nightmare for me due to her severe clinical mental illnesses. She wants an R, I’m struggling with that prospect..
2nd Marriage PA D-day Oct 19th 2012. Attempted PAs with 10-15 other men.
Yikes!This was mine after months of TT.
Ding Ding!:smthumbup:I asume trolling internet for hook ups.
I asume bipolar.
Ya.. Mine was a multiple. Not so much trolling as it was vindictive against me and an issue where she believes 'casual sexual contact' (like making out) is alright with any friendship as long as it keeps private. Some developed to "more".Really helpful Racer - I'm going to incorporate some of that into my request.
Glad to know I'm not the only one thinking along these lines/demands.
