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I don't know where to put this but since the books are about relationships I'll plop it here. He has some stuff aimed at guys but I'll likely be checking it out to see what he's all about.
Has anyone heard of or read Athol Kays books?
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Yes and he actually used to visit this forum. His book is very often recommended to guys here.
Married Man Sex Life Primer is the common one and it’s an easy fast read. A lot of it is common sense though.
Married Man Sex Life Primer is the common one and it’s an easy fast read. A lot of it is common sense though.
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Agree with MM. It's a good easy read and makes sense or confirms common sense. I wouldn't apply the advice there to any and all situations, but I know in my own marriage it made a huge difference.
He makes a comment about ladies who want to read the book, but it's geared toward wannabe men.
He makes a comment about ladies who want to read the book, but it's geared toward wannabe men.
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I'm curious what types of things you've applied to your marriages. I've been checking his stuff out on and off today and my first impression is less than enthusiastic. Seems his website is gone though so it's more bits and pieces than a whole picture and to be fair a lot is second hand info.
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I'll probably end up reading the book just to see. From my findings I'd say it would work better for young guys dating than older married guys. I'm quite far from the "typical" woman though, whatever that is.
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So fill us in. What would you like to know? Why do you believe it won’t relate to older married men? What is atypical about you?
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For me the book opened my eyes to ‘the big lie’ about who men are supposed to be in a relationship, and in society overall. The narrative in the book generally follows the guidance on TAM about understanding a man’s role and being the leader of a marriage. Not having this role model growing up, I had no idea.
The underlying premise of the book is that women aren’t attracted to weak men, and will generally seek out stronger men. Instruction is given about how to move from a weaker to stronger footing no matter your position in life. The book talks a lot about sex and making her panties moist but for me the goal was to make myself better regardless of other outcomes.
I was a passive doormat, just like my dad. But when I (slowly and gently) implemented some changes in my life based on MMSLP, 2 things happened. I personally feel much better about myself and more comfortable in my own skin. And my wife loved the changes. So whatever one might say about it, it worked for me.
YMMV
I enjoyed reading the book. He's a good writer, and funny. When he sticks to the kind of thing you'll read here over and over on TAM (and infidelity sites) he's good: i.e. you can't "nice" your spouse back; you have to work on you, not them etc. When he veers into red pilly stuff I get leery. i.e. that "the man" is captain of the marriage and the wife is the first mate; that women "sh*t test" men etc. I don't know where in the scientific/psychological literature he's pulling that stuff. There is an in-between space where on balance I'm OK with him. E.g. while I don't believe that a guy has to be the "leader" of a marriage, I do think that evolutionarily, women, on average, need "their" man to demonstrate attributes of primal masculinity (physical strength, determination, decisiveness etc). Just don't get too sweeping with the generalizations. Because something might be true "on average" does not mean it applies to YOUR wife.
In terms of applying - I have not tried to apply anything from Kay's book...on purpose. But I can say that over last 7/8 years things have had a positive effect on my marriage. Specifically, I started dressing better (for my job, not 'cause Athol said so), and I started weight lifting (as part of my existing health routine). These are the kinds of changes that AK urges men to take in "the program." And honestly, my wife has noticed. And I'm thrilled. So I don't have problems urging guys with detached wives to at least look at the parts of AKs program that urges self improvement.
I suspect that this program applies to women too! I think the evolutionary psychology overlay is...as a person improves their mate value, they become attractive to others. How you improve your mate value will differ by gender (men have more options - they improve status, or muscle, or appearance). Since mate value for a woman is very linked to appearance, her options to improve mate value are more limited - but if your wife starts sprucing up....you WILL notice. It's in the engineering.
In terms of applying - I have not tried to apply anything from Kay's book...on purpose. But I can say that over last 7/8 years things have had a positive effect on my marriage. Specifically, I started dressing better (for my job, not 'cause Athol said so), and I started weight lifting (as part of my existing health routine). These are the kinds of changes that AK urges men to take in "the program." And honestly, my wife has noticed. And I'm thrilled. So I don't have problems urging guys with detached wives to at least look at the parts of AKs program that urges self improvement.
I suspect that this program applies to women too! I think the evolutionary psychology overlay is...as a person improves their mate value, they become attractive to others. How you improve your mate value will differ by gender (men have more options - they improve status, or muscle, or appearance). Since mate value for a woman is very linked to appearance, her options to improve mate value are more limited - but if your wife starts sprucing up....you WILL notice. It's in the engineering.
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I'm reading the book now. I agree with the man-up concept, women don't want to be married to a "weak" guy. The first thing that kind of took me back and would not apply to me was to approach women with a calmness that implies he's accustomed with being with "even more beautiful women" which triggers her interest in him. Umm...no. Is that something that would typically work?
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Approaching with calmness and confidence, yes.
Approaching with an ‘aloof’ attitude? Not so much. Or maybe? But I would expect the wrong sort of girl to respond to that (for me anyway).
A lot of AK’s points are like that, I just read between the lines to find the intent. Some were good, some not so much.
Actually it's a lot more applicable to more mature men in long term marriages.
Young guys and guys in new relationships are often naturally doing a lot of the things that make them more sexually appealing to women by default.
It's the guys that have been married/LTR for 10-15+ years that have let themselves go and have gotten into the "yes Dear" routine of becoming betatized and complacent in long term marriage that need to get off the couch and bump up their sexy.
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As soon as I see the Alpha Beta stuff I tune out. This not only stereotypes men, but also women in how they respond to these stereotypes.
I am totally egalitarian. My wife is one of those women who are accustomed to dominating men and thought my not "leading" I was being indecisive. Truth is that while she feels protected by "Alpha" types, she is feisty and independent. She walked out on a truly "Alpha" fiance.
We have been together over 46 years, married 45 and she has for the most part to live with being able to have a bigger say.
On the other hand, she thought it was cool when I decided to spend $3000 without first asking her opinion. She was not available when I needed to make a snap decision.
I am totally egalitarian. My wife is one of those women who are accustomed to dominating men and thought my not "leading" I was being indecisive. Truth is that while she feels protected by "Alpha" types, she is feisty and independent. She walked out on a truly "Alpha" fiance.
We have been together over 46 years, married 45 and she has for the most part to live with being able to have a bigger say.
On the other hand, she thought it was cool when I decided to spend $3000 without first asking her opinion. She was not available when I needed to make a snap decision.
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The bare bones of it is good so far but he has a feel of "make her feel easily disposable" to me and I don't like that. Yes I do enjoy it when other women "notice" my guy but for me the sexiest thing is him not noticing and staying focused on me. If he were to make it feel competitive I think that would weaken our foundation.
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I believe this is just more of that wording vs. intent type thing. The intent being “He understands he has value….and so does she”.
There is possibly a little bit of “lost in translation” as he isn’t from the USA.
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I think it’s more of “be the best version of yourself” that you can be, and then she herself will feel disposable when she notices that other women are noticing him. If he’s focused on you, and you see women notice him, you will be more focused on him. That’s all most guys want.
If he has to point out that he’s being checked out by other women, and that he has options, that whole premise is gone.
Understand Athol in the context of what we know from lots of other sources. Some basic facts:
-- Women in monogamous relationships lose interest in sex over time. The longer the relationship, the less interest they have. This is separate and apart from any changes in him. All of the factors which fuel a woman's libido fade in a long term relationship. She may grow in her love, but her desire for sex with him declines. Big difference. If he gets comfortable, drops the ball, starts balding and adding weight, etc. her interest will decline that much more. But he can be and remain the hottest, richest stud around and she will still lose interest. Giselle lost interest in Tom Brady compared to her trainer. Because the new guy is a novelty, a mystery, different and exciting. With no bills to pay, kids to raise, work arguments, etc. He just has to be new and hot. Boring, same old hubby cannot possibly compete with new. [his only protection in the marriage is her integrity to refuse to succumb to the temptation caused by her inevitable loss of desire for husband]
-- Most men have physical affection as their primary love language (see Chapman on the five love languages).
-- As her interest in sex fades, his satisfaction with the relationship fades.
-- The culture tells him that he must jump through more and more hoops if he expects to have sex. Wine her and dine her, etc. But that isn't what makes her horny (no matter how much she enjoys it or appreciates it). It's not possible to negotiate genuine desire.
-- If he asks his wife why she isn't interested in sex, she will search for reasons why it is his fault. Always. Because she doesn't understand the hormonal and other changes which affect her and reduce her sexual interest in him.
-- She may complain that he doesn't help with the kids enough. Or the housekeeping. Or have enough date nights. He will do whatever he can to make her happy, but none of it will make her horny. Because none of that is the real issue. And the relationship circles the bowl with a dead bedroom.
The key takeaway is that both husbands and wives should understand that the culture is toxic and its messages are wrong. Both need to understand the real factors in sexual attraction and what women need and want. That women want and love a man who is safe, dependable, and reliable. But those qualities don't make a woman horny. In fact, they can reduce sexual desire.
There are very real, science-based reasons why women say they want a nice guy, yet hook up with a bad boy. The more that is understood, the more likely marriages can survive and thrive.
-- Women in monogamous relationships lose interest in sex over time. The longer the relationship, the less interest they have. This is separate and apart from any changes in him. All of the factors which fuel a woman's libido fade in a long term relationship. She may grow in her love, but her desire for sex with him declines. Big difference. If he gets comfortable, drops the ball, starts balding and adding weight, etc. her interest will decline that much more. But he can be and remain the hottest, richest stud around and she will still lose interest. Giselle lost interest in Tom Brady compared to her trainer. Because the new guy is a novelty, a mystery, different and exciting. With no bills to pay, kids to raise, work arguments, etc. He just has to be new and hot. Boring, same old hubby cannot possibly compete with new. [his only protection in the marriage is her integrity to refuse to succumb to the temptation caused by her inevitable loss of desire for husband]
-- Most men have physical affection as their primary love language (see Chapman on the five love languages).
-- As her interest in sex fades, his satisfaction with the relationship fades.
-- The culture tells him that he must jump through more and more hoops if he expects to have sex. Wine her and dine her, etc. But that isn't what makes her horny (no matter how much she enjoys it or appreciates it). It's not possible to negotiate genuine desire.
-- If he asks his wife why she isn't interested in sex, she will search for reasons why it is his fault. Always. Because she doesn't understand the hormonal and other changes which affect her and reduce her sexual interest in him.
-- She may complain that he doesn't help with the kids enough. Or the housekeeping. Or have enough date nights. He will do whatever he can to make her happy, but none of it will make her horny. Because none of that is the real issue. And the relationship circles the bowl with a dead bedroom.
The key takeaway is that both husbands and wives should understand that the culture is toxic and its messages are wrong. Both need to understand the real factors in sexual attraction and what women need and want. That women want and love a man who is safe, dependable, and reliable. But those qualities don't make a woman horny. In fact, they can reduce sexual desire.
There are very real, science-based reasons why women say they want a nice guy, yet hook up with a bad boy. The more that is understood, the more likely marriages can survive and thrive.
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