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They are lashing out at anything and anyone they imagine may be white or related to the white establishment. They are seeing everything based on race.

They have defaced numerous structures dedicated to people who fought slavery. Their outrage has led to the destruction of black owned businesses. They have executed white police officers.

Their stated goal does not match their larger rhetoric nor their actions.
You are attributing the actions of extremists to a mainstream you don't like, and have ignored the question.
 

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I see John Wayne is the next target. If we really get down to it, couldn’t we say a large percent of people from our country’s past were racist to a degree?
If not that, I’m sure they were bad in some other way. Maybe they were cruel to animals, mean to their fellow man, they’ve lied, talked bad about others, and the list goes on. Does that mean there were no good qualities in them? I believe that if we all discovered our lives had been recorded, and anyone could view it, I believe we have all said or done something in our lives that would be questionable and would probably get us fired, yet, I think most of us consider ourselves decent people. If there is someone who hasn’t done or said anything wrong, I’d certainly like to meet them.
 

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How can anyone justify rewriting history to suit a political party or race for that matter? What happened, happened, we don't have to worship a statue, it's a symbol of what happened. Use it as a teaching tool as you see it.
We need to learn history about people who did significant things whether they were nice, not nice, and/or lived the mores of their time which may be outdated. Who we have statues of is a lot less important, as well as harder to agree on.
 

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I see John Wayne is the next target. If we really get down to it, couldn’t we say a large percent of people from our country’s past were racist to a degree?
If not that, I’m sure they were bad in some other way. Maybe they were cruel to animals, mean to their fellow man, they’ve lied, talked bad about others, and the list goes on. Does that mean there were no good qualities in them? I believe that if we all discovered our lives had been recorded, and anyone could view it, I believe we have all said or done something in our lives that would be questionable and would probably get us fired, yet, I think most of us consider ourselves decent people. If there is someone who hasn’t done or said anything wrong, I’d certainly like to meet them.
That is the complicated thing about our history... the founding fathers were "great" men for their actions and the democratic ideals they set forth in establishing our nation. But they were also flawed men of their time period. They all made mistakes, and did some dishonorable things as well--some things that could be considered downright evil if viewed through a modern lens, but these things were standard practice at the time.

So the question is, how can we honor them for their great achievements while also recognizing their faults and how they contributed to the continuation of slavery and racism in our country? People (especially Americans) like to see issues in black and white (pun not intended and completely regrettable), and we don't do well with nuance and shades of grey. Our K-12 educational system is not designed to produce critical thinkers, it is designed to produce factory worker drones... most students only get that critical thinking education if they go on to college, and there are a few colleges out there which are designed to indoctrinate, rather than opening the mind.

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How can anyone justify rewriting history to suit a political party or race for that matter? What happened, happened, we don't have to worship a statue, it's a symbol of what happened. Use it as a teaching tool as you see it.
@karole If I may, allow me to ask you to think about this another way. I don't know if you are religious or not, but if you are, this story will be familiar to you. (I myself am not religious, but was raised in the church, and I've done a fair amount of academic reading of the Bible as well.)

So, there is a commandment that says, "Thou shalt worship no false idols before me." God (and Moses, on behalf of God) got upset with the Israelites when they began worshipping the golden calf idol. Because the golden calf was a fake idol. Remember that story?

So the golden calf is frequently attributed to the Canaanites, but it's more likely that the Israelites got the idea from the golden bull Apis, who was a symbol of the god Ptah, present in Egypt. According to the Exodus story, the Israelites were in Egypt for several generations. Im regards to the Israelites, one could say that the Egyptian iconography and idols were just symbols, and that the Israelites had their own theistic tradition, so the presence of these false idols shouldn't have an impact on their faith. But you would be wrong--their exposure to these false idols over several generations, they began to stray from their own faith and worship these false idols, to the point that during the Exodus they asked Aaron to make them a false idol of their own.

Now consider these statues for what they really are: idolatry of Confederate leaders, whose goal was to secede from the US in order to keep vlack people enslaved. And statues of these individuals aren't a reminder of the evil that has done; these statues are glorification of evil men and evil deeds. These statues not only normalize racist ideals, they are false idols that embody racism.

Now compare how the Israelites, over several generations, bought into the idea of worshipping false idols and how racism continues to fester all over our country, but especially in the south where these statues seem to be everywhere, and the Confederate flag is seen everywhere. How can racism be fought when its false idols and imagery are everywhere?

The only way Moses was able to bring back his people to their faith was to destroy the idol so it would no longer have power, and he has to re-teach his people. If we are to eradicate racism and racist, systemic policies in our country, we first need to destroy the idolatry which encourages this way of thinking to persist.

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That is the complicated thing about our history... the founding fathers were "great" men for their actions and the democratic ideals they set forth in establishing our nation. But they were also flawed men of their time period.
I believe a lot of people don't engage in critical thinking, nor do they have any decent understanding of history. Our sensibilities today are not the same as 50 years ago, and not the same as other "civilized" nations even today. Go back centuries or millennia and the sensibilities were much different. People are stuck in the time they are in, and we are biased by our present.

We can't judge people based solely on our present understandings of morality.

But tbh I believe a lot of people don't really care about truth or history, they are more interested in pushing forward an agenda for the future. On top of that there are so very many who are ignorant of history and are following corrupted leadership.
 

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I believe a lot of people don't engage in critical thinking, nor do they have any decent understanding of history. Our sensibilities today are not the same as 50 years ago, and not the same as other "civilized" nations even today. Go back centuries or millennia and the sensibilities were much different. People are stuck in the time they are in, and we are biased by our present.

We can't judge people based solely on our present understandings of morality.

But tbh I believe a lot of people don't really care about truth or history, they are more interested in pushing forward an agenda for the future. On top of that there are so very many who are ignorant of history and are following corrupted leadership.
Or what they will be in fifty, one hundred years from now. The righteous of today could very well be the villains of tomorrow.
 

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It's easy to dismiss everyone on the "other" side of the debate as lacking critical thinking skills.

My 27 year old daughter is on the side of "tear down the statues". She is college educated in the sciences. She knows how to think critically. She also believes that we simply do not need monuments to ex-slave holders - and that includes people like George Washington - in our modern era.

Now I don't necessarily agree with her, although I don't care one way or another about statues or flags or any other patriotic iconography, but she is not some simpleton who cannot reason her way out of a paper bag.

Some monuments serve a very useful purpose. Go visit any one of a number of concentration camps in Germany for an excellent example. Some less so. Tearing them down doesn't erase history, only our glorification of it.
 

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It's easy to dismiss everyone on the "other" side of the debate as lacking critical thinking skills.

My 27 year old daughter is on the side of "tear down the statues". She is college educated in the sciences. She knows how to think critically. She also believes that we simply do not need monuments to ex-slave holders - and that includes people like George Washington - in our modern era.

Now I don't necessarily agree with her, although I don't care one way or another about statues or flags or any other patriotic iconography, but she is not some simpleton who cannot reason her way out of a paper bag.

Some monuments serve a very useful purpose. Go visit any one of a number of concentration camps in Germany for an excellent example. Some less so. Tearing them down doesn't erase history, only our glorification of it.
I think tearing down statues of EVERY slave holder, including the founding fathers is ridiculous. I support tearing down the statues of the Confederates who were traitors and fighting to keep people enslaved, because their statues are commemorating their traitorous acts of rebellion.

I do not support tearing down statues of Washington and other founding fathers... we have monuments and statues to them because of the role they played in forming this country and gaining our independence from England. They are not being celebrated for the fact that they owned slaves.

That being said, the fact that they DID own slaves is an important piece of our history that should be included in the history books; it shouldn't be whitewashed they way so much of our history has been. Recognizing these facts and talking about it is something that I think will help us move forward as a country.

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It is funny how an imperfection becomes justification to tear down a statue or rename a building. Some guy 200+ years ago did great stuff but also did things we don't agree with today, so the new normal is to erase the guy from history.

Yet when it is a modern day liberal the standard is completely absent. The list of names is endless of people who have done abhorrent things who also happen to be Democrat politicians, liberal celebrities, or community leaders. They get a complete pass by all the people today strutting their virtue on the cause du jour.

Which reveals it isn't really all that much about the bad thing the person did but which side that person is assumed to be on.
 

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It is funny how an imperfection becomes justification to tear down a statue or rename a building. Some guy 200+ years ago did great stuff but also did things we don't agree with today, so the new normal is to erase the guy from history.

Yet when it is a modern day liberal the standard is completely absent. The list of names is endless of people who have done abhorrent things who also happen to be Democrat politicians, liberal celebrities, or community leaders. They get a complete pass by all the people today strutting their virtue on the cause du jour.

Which reveals it isn't really all that much about the bad thing the person did but which side that person is assumed to be on.
You are just realizing this now?
 

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It is funny how an imperfection becomes justification to tear down a statue or rename a building. Some guy 200+ years ago did great stuff but also did things we don't agree with today, so the new normal is to erase the guy from history.

Yet when it is a modern day liberal the standard is completely absent. The list of names is endless of people who have done abhorrent things who also happen to be Democrat politicians, liberal celebrities, or community leaders. They get a complete pass by all the people today strutting their virtue on the cause du jour.

Which reveals it isn't really all that much about the bad thing the person did but which side that person is assumed to be on.
Come on Thor, most prominent, rich people get a pass, whether they are dems or repubs, we all know that. But there certainly have been members of the liberal establishment who have paid a price for their bad behavior - Al Franken and Harvey Weinstein are two that come to mind.
 

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Which reveals it isn't really all that much about the bad thing the person did but which side that person is assumed to be on.
If i had ever heard you say a good thing about a democrat or a progressive on this site, I might be sympathetic to this argument.

Consider me non-plussed.
 

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It is funny how an imperfection becomes justification to tear down a statue or rename a building. Some guy 200+ years ago did great stuff but also did things we don't agree with today, so the new normal is to erase the guy from history.
Or it would be if our history only consisted of statues. I hear the squiggly markings on paper have something to do with it, however.
Yet when it is a modern day liberal the standard is completely absent. The list of names is endless of people who have done abhorrent things who also happen to be Democrat politicians, liberal celebrities, or community leaders. They get a complete pass by all the people today strutting their virtue on the cause du jour.
You didn't name any whose statues have gotten a pass, but you did remind us you don't like liberals, so thank you for that.
 

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Come on Thor, most prominent, rich people get a pass, whether they are dems or repubs, we all know that. But there certainly have been members of the liberal establishment who have paid a price for their bad behavior - Al Franken and Harvey Weinstein are two that come to mind.
They are very very few and far between. Franken was delivered up due to bad timing more than anything. Harvey Weinstein's behavior was no secret in the industry, and he got a pass until the criminal charges started piling up. His supporters through the years also happen to be in many cases known as supporters of the "Me Too" movement.

Still, where is the outrage over the late Senator Byrd? His name is on tons of buildings in the South, and he was some kind of official grand poobah in the KKK. For real. All those people who are today suddenly outraged about what people did before any of us were born, but give a total pass to people they perceive to be "on their side" politically. Bill Clinton is perhaps the most obvious example, as is Hillary, when it comes to abusing women and also on race. Even Joe Biden is being given a total pass on his 70 years of documented history. We all know it would not be the same were he a Republican running for President.

But the list is endless of those given a pass today, as long as they are perceived to be friendly to the right causes. This is why so many high profile people and businesses go out of their way to declare their virtue, hoping to escape the conflagration.
 

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You didn't name any whose statues have gotten a pass, but you did remind us you don't like liberals, so thank you for that.
Well there is this guy who's statue is in the US Capitol.



His name graces at least 54 buildings, highways, and bridges.

There is Che Guevara's statue in Central Park. A racist, mass killer, and hated homosexuals whom he put into work camps.

There is Margaret Sanger's bronze bust at the Smithsonian. Affiliated with the KKK, she promoted abortion of black babies and supported Nazi sterilization programs of undesirables.

Harvey Milk's bust in San Francisco's City Hall. While loved as an icon of homosexuality, he was a pedophile.

FDR has an entire memorial in DC. He sent Americans of Japanese descent into concentration camps in WWII. He was racist against the Japanese. Lesser known was he also sent Americans of German and Italian descent to concentration camps.

J. William Fulbright's statue at the University of Arkansas. Bill Clinton openly admired Fulbright, calling him a role model for him. Fulbright was a segregationist who filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1965.

Vladamir Lenin has a statue in Seattle. He was a vicious leader who was responsible for mass starvation, executing political opposition, and sent people to concentration camps.

I'm sure there are more, but that would be a start. I highly doubt we'll see BLM or Antifa protesting any of these monuments.
 

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Destruction of statues and/or historical artifacts I would consider it dangerously close to holocaust denial and/or book burning.
You can't just sweep the embarrassing parts of your history under the rug, the only sin is not learning from it and sweeping it under the rug would most definitely not let anyone learn from it.

If you don't want to have it in a public square then put it in a museum somewhere! People are dumb enough as it is when it comes to history, a heavily neglected subject.

The road to overcoming racism is in education not the opposite! Bah!
 

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Bah! All this sh-t in modern countries, historical revisionism and all that, "controlling the narrative", U.S., China, my country too in Australia tried it when it came to our aborigines.

BLM and antifa just a bunch of lunatics playing into the hands of their sworn opposers. Why can't people realise racialism=dumbasses and a culture that promotes dumbassness by twisting and/or neglecting history obviously isn't going to make any real change?

EDIT: You know, I noticed a very disturbing trend with all your American 'movements', they are all like extremists. Not just anti-racism but feminism too, the #metoo crap and hate on men for example. And they all flail around with their hands in the air and gather large amounts of dumbasses to spread their message. Individually, each could have their own reason to support these movements, an antifa or BLM member could truly want racism to end, a feminist could truly simply want their own human rights. But in the end all these movements are so large, so chaotic, with extremists running unchecked the whole thing is like a zombie fest. And I would bet a huge number of these people in riots are doing it just because it's trendy or because they are ****ing bored.

Meh, people are ****ing stupid.
 
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