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Discussion Starter #641


  1. Chicago,

    You have filed a legal separation, right? If not, you may still be liable for debts she runs up.

    This happened to my son. His XW had credit cards in her name only that he did not even know about. She used them to fund trips with her lovers (their were many) while he was away for military training. A year after he caught and divorced her the debt collectors came after him for payment. He got a lawyer but ended up having to pay them off or let his credit be ruined. Evidently since they were married at the time it did not matter if his name was on the accounts or not.

    Getting a legal separation would have avoided that. Think about it.
    Not legal separation no, I have well documented our separation thought. but i need to follow up with my lawyer on this. Thanks for the heads up
 

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Discussion Starter #642
I wanted to provide a quick update to every, I have been working with a few members via DM for the last week.

Last weekend I received the whats going on text. I replied to that text the following day stating that in 5 weeks since Dday there had been no remorse, no empathy, no regret on her part. I reiterated that i had make two requests (transparency, timeline) for items that would allow me to begin to heal and those had been ignored. I stated that is she was ready to help me heal we could talk, if not we could talk about separating our lives fully

Her reply was as expected, that I haven't given her a chance to hear what she needs (I have I have no less than 7 things written down in my notes), that all we have talked about is what I need, that she feels my requests are another control in what she feels is already a controlling relationship and as per her therapists my requests are a band-aid approach when the real work needs to be me fixing my issues that caused her affair. She suggest a neutral MC to help us communicate better as she feels we are not communicating

I agreed to MC in a moment of weakness (one of many yes I know), I found a affair recovery specialist in our area, he isn't available for a couple weeks though

Tuesday evening I send a message explaining I had found someone but they are not available for a couple weeks. I also I send a detailed and descriptive emailing explaining that my requests are not a control, not a demand, but instead what I require to feel safe in the relationship. She has full autonomy to comply or not to comply. I once again requested three things;
1. Proof that she is no longer contacting OM. I walked back on my realest for full device access
2. Detailed timeline, which included some direct questions about her relation with Om as well and circumstances around it
3. If she has come to point in IC where she can identify why affair happen unrelated to marriage issues

I reiterated a the end she has to do whats best for her, the things above are what I need. I respect her decision if she decides to not provide them. I know what I need to move forward. I did not explicitly threaten divorce but the tone was there. My message was nearly 700 words in total

She replied about 24 hours later (usually had been reply in minutes) to say she does not want to discuss any of this via text or email it has to be with a therapist. and for me to send he the MC i found so she can verify she would be comfortable with him. Total of 30 words

To me it is now clear at this point she is either 100% manipulating things or actually doesn't feel comfortable taking responsibility or discussing her mistakes without a moderator there. I have never given her a reason to be scared of talking to me directly. So whether this is invented or a deep seeded issue I'm not sure.

What i do know is I am at a final crossroads here, its clear if we do go down any path it will be 100% on her terms. She cant even answer a question like is she in love with him still? Been asked 3 times now and always deflected/not answered. I think it is time to pull the plug, I don't know whats there for us if there is no remorse, accountability, anything - what she did is not a minor annoyance, its major.

One member said it very weekly its like she cut your finger off and is asking you to call 911

I know my process hjas been more deliberate and softer than some would like - but it is my process and I am slowly getting there - I am seeing the light

Thanks
 

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What i do know is I am at a final crossroads here, its clear if we do go down any path it will be 100% on her terms. She cant even answer a question like is she in love with him still? Been asked 3 times now and always deflected/not answered. I think it is time to pull the plug, I don't know whats there for us if there is no remorse, accountability, anything - what she did is not a minor annoyance, its major.

One member said it very weekly its like she cut your finger off and is asking you to call 911

I know my process has been more deliberate and softer than some would like - but it is my process and I am slowly getting there - I am seeing the light
I really hope that you are starting to see the light. Frankly, there is not much here.

Further, you don't think she has not been seeing him, do you, or do you care?

I guess you are seeing that you have nothing to work with here.

I hope you are doing ok. You do realize that your process and what you are putting yourself through, has to be hurting you worse than if you just pulled the plug.

At least it would me, but this is your life.

I hope you are taking care of yourself. I wish you strength...
 

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when the real work needs to be me fixing my issues that caused her affair.
She is so off base here. Cheater's Script 101, Chapter 1, page 23. She has no one to blame but herself for her affair.

And to insist on having a neutral third party as a mediator. That's some high-level BS right there. I wouldn't do it for all the tea in China.

She's afraid to be alone with you to answer the hard questions. She wants someone to run interference and redirect and to level the playing field. Newsflash--the playing field isn't level! At all. And it never will be again.She's the one who tilted it.
 

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I know my process has been more deliberate and softer than some would like - but it is my process and I am slowly getting there - I am seeing the light
What's important is that you're seeing the light and moving forward. What' actually helpful is that she's showing the light and it's bright as hell. It doesn't flicker. It's bold and piercing. In other words, she's making it easy for you to see it and that helps you.

You would be confused if she sent mixed messages, but she isn't. Her messages are consistent, strong, intentional and self-serving. Hence, we have the perfect wayward spouse to disengage from.
 

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I fear that a marriage counselor, even one specializing in infidelity, is at best a waste of time if she is still in contact with other man. At worst, she lies to him and says she is in no contact, when she is, and when you make decisions based on faulty assumptions (like she ended it with him but didn't), it makes things way worse.

And why woudn't she just say she stopped contacting him if she did? He is a good friend and she has no plans of you forcing her to give him up, but she will stop having sex with him and will keep it platonic. Her therapist, a professional expert, said so.

The 24-hour 30-word reply came from her therapist - you know that, right? Maybe she will ask that her therapist come to the marriage counselor you named. I am guessing your wife is giving that counselor's name to her therapist, who will contact the marriage counselor to give some background before you come.

People I know well who have had relationship issues and went to a therapist, just had bad experiences. The only ones I've heard where they had good experiences were teen-early adults who were having what I call "growing pains" and the counseling helped a lot. But any full-formed adults I've ever heard, the experiences ranged from ineffective to absolutely nightmare. Plus, I know through knowing counselors from coaching youth sports, parents of the kids have been counselors, and what a mess in their own personal lives. I wouldn't let them guide me down the street, never mind guide my life or relationship. So I hope you have a good one, and I hope your wife is honest about seeing the other man still.

I understand completely where you are, you can't give up the small possibility that she can come around, after you have been with her 16 years, what's another few months, and you have nothing else going on, anyway.

If I were you, about a day or two before your scheduled marriage counseling, I would call the counselor up and ask if your wife's therapist has called to give any background.

I think there's about a 50/50 chance that your wife's therapist will nix your counselor before the scheduled appointment. If your wife's therapist already knows your proposed counselor and disagrees with how to deal with infidelity, or if your wife's therapist calls your proposed counselor and can't get your counselor to agree on how you should fix your faults first, I think your wife's therapist will tell wife your counselor is a quack. I think you can see what I think of your wife's therapist.
 

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It crazy how much she doesn't care. She is either the best poker player ever or she literally lost her heart and is still somehow alive
I know that you will not believe this until much later if ever.

I really don't think she has lost her heart, I don't think she ever had one. Like I said, I know you don't believe that. Thing is that it is kind of unusual for someone to do what she has done at this level.

So that says that she never had the guts to tell you she was unhappy, or to just say that I want out.

People like that don't have heart, not really...
 

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Some people are just unable to accept that they are at fault or wrong about anything (kinda like our president, lol). Sounds like your wife is one of these people. Therapist is protection for her, not to help you. In your shoes, I'd be struggling with needing answers and be tempted to try to get them by going through the appointment, but in reality her answers don't matter. She is showing you who she really is.
 

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I wanted to provide a quick update to every, I have been working with a few members via DM for the last week.

Last weekend I received the whats going on text. I replied to that text the following day stating that in 5 weeks since Dday there had been no remorse, no empathy, no regret on her part. I reiterated that i had make two requests (transparency, timeline) for items that would allow me to begin to heal and those had been ignored. I stated that is she was ready to help me heal we could talk, if not we could talk about separating our lives fully

Her reply was as expected, that I haven't given her a chance to hear what she needs (I have I have no less than 7 things written down in my notes), that all we have talked about is what I need, that she feels my requests are another control in what she feels is already a controlling relationship and as per her therapists my requests are a band-aid approach when the real work needs to be me fixing my issues that caused her affair. She suggest a neutral MC to help us communicate better as she feels we are not communicating

I agreed to MC in a moment of weakness (one of many yes I know), I found a affair recovery specialist in our area, he isn't available for a couple weeks though

Tuesday evening I send a message explaining I had found someone but they are not available for a couple weeks. I also I send a detailed and descriptive emailing explaining that my requests are not a control, not a demand, but instead what I require to feel safe in the relationship. She has full autonomy to comply or not to comply. I once again requested three things;
1. Proof that she is no longer contacting OM. I walked back on my realest for full device access
2. Detailed timeline, which included some direct questions about her relation with Om as well and circumstances around it
3. If she has come to point in IC where she can identify why affair happen unrelated to marriage issues

I reiterated a the end she has to do whats best for her, the things above are what I need. I respect her decision if she decides to not provide them. I know what I need to move forward. I did not explicitly threaten divorce but the tone was there. My message was nearly 700 words in total

She replied about 24 hours later (usually had been reply in minutes) to say she does not want to discuss any of this via text or email it has to be with a therapist. and for me to send he the MC i found so she can verify she would be comfortable with him. Total of 30 words

To me it is now clear at this point she is either 100% manipulating things or actually doesn't feel comfortable taking responsibility or discussing her mistakes without a moderator there. I have never given her a reason to be scared of talking to me directly. So whether this is invented or a deep seeded issue I'm not sure.

What i do know is I am at a final crossroads here, its clear if we do go down any path it will be 100% on her terms. She cant even answer a question like is she in love with him still? Been asked 3 times now and always deflected/not answered. I think it is time to pull the plug, I don't know whats there for us if there is no remorse, accountability, anything - what she did is not a minor annoyance, its major.

One member said it very weekly its like she cut your finger off and is asking you to call 911

I know my process hjas been more deliberate and softer than some would like - but it is my process and I am slowly getting there - I am seeing the light

Thanks
Right. It's you being controlling to insist she end her affair as a condition of attempting to reconcile. It's why she wants to waffle on the MC - she wants to make sure the new MC won't laugh that right out.

You have a chance at flipping the script here. Just say you're done. Don't offer to reconcile.

If and when she asks you to reconsider, just say "three's a crowd. I'm not going to go back into a relationship with you when you're dating someone else."

And if she insists that she's not, just say "I don't believe you." Leave it up to her to try to decide how she's going to convince you.

Be out. Let her try to pull you back in if she wants (and it's what you want). Don't say you want to reconcile with conditions (even though they are reasonable) because she's being a childish manipulator about things.

These are all red flags for reconciliation by the way.

And I virtually also guarantee she's continued the affair and met up with the guy if she's had an opportunity to do so. Or met up with someone else.
 

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It crazy how much she doesn't care. She is either the best poker player ever or she literally lost her heart and is still somehow alive
Ok. This is going to sting, so don't read it if you're not ready.

It's not that she doesn't care. It's that she doesn't care about you. She cares very highly - about herself, and only herself. And she feels that is justified, because she matters more than you do.

Here's what happens:
  1. She gets attracted to someone else
  2. She comes up with reasons to justify why she should get with someone else
  3. She re-writes her entire relationship with you to make you the bad guy - so even if she cheats, you're still more of a bad guy and it's justified
  4. She gets with the other guy
  5. She realizes she can have it all - she can have him (or a few 'hims') and still have you - because she's so incredibly awesome
  6. Based on her being so awesome, you should be happy with whatever crumbs she throws your way
  7. She gets caught. She blames you. She doesn't want to go back to the way it is, because she has everything her way. She doesn't want to be held accountable by you, because you don't matter as much as she does. Because she's so awesome that she can get 2+ guys. Why are you making this so hard? Go back to your little box and accept the crumbs she throws your way. And don't forget - it's your own fault you're here. In her distorted mind, of course.
 

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Marduk speaks truth. She doesn’t want your marriage, she just wants the benefits you provide while she test drives other models. She isn’t sorry and she doesn’t love you. All she talks about is how awful you are and how HER affair is your fault.

Skip the MC. It’s a waste of your time and your money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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@Chicagohusband2020 - do you see the pattern yet? You start pulling down your Instagram photos, you no longer deposit money into the joint account, she is all over you like white on rice - what's wrong? Why did you do that?

The second you soften up, even a little bit, she walks all over you.

You have to stay like stone. That is how you stay in control as best you can.
 

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I just read back through some of the original posts.

This one jumped out at me:
She left the house Saturday crying, talking about how she did want to fix things and didn't want to leave. When she did leave she jumped on a call with him for 40 minutes,. Then laid in bed that night and played secy message time while at the same time texting me saying she missed me and wanted to fix things.
So you know at minimum what she's been up to. You know she's come over for booty calls after the other guy turned her on. You need to assume if you've shut that down, she's gone elsewhere.

And you need to assume that she's literally still sexting him while she's texting you.

The other thing: it looks like she's agreed to no contact several times here - but now she's not. What changed?
 

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People I know well who have had relationship issues and went to a therapist, just had bad experiences. The only ones I've heard where they had good experiences were teen-early adults who were having what I call "growing pains" and the counseling helped a lot. But any full-formed adults I've ever heard, the experiences ranged from ineffective to absolutely nightmare. Plus, I know through knowing counselors from coaching youth sports, parents of the kids have been counselors, and what a mess in their own personal lives. I wouldn't let them guide me down the street, never mind guide my life or relationship. So I hope you have a good one, and I hope your wife is honest about seeing the other man still.
I want to second this big time. I have never-ever understood the confidence and trust that people in infidelity forums put on therapists to help them untangle the betrayal and cause grown-ass cheating adults to come clean and change their ways.

I also don't understand the Marriage Counselor = bad, Individual Counselor = Good, belief.

A large percentage Marriage/relationship counselors do both individual and couples counseling.

***

The fact is, that people who do not want to be accountable for their actions are not going to sit by and be truthful with a therapist and let a therapist strictly enforce responsibility on them.

The liar/cheater is going to leave the therapist.

And therapists, forget whether or not they are smart or stupid, virtuous or degenerate, etc. - most likely they are just "average" - they rely on repeat business!

Calling your paying client a liar who must come clean is not a recipe for repeat business.

***

This may seem like a thread-jack, but it mostly isn't.

Your wife wants a therapist there because of exactly this reason:

She's afraid to be alone with you to answer the hard questions. She wants someone to run interference and redirect and to level the playing field.
So it's up to you bro. Nothing a therapist is gonna do to change her into an honest person.

There is only you and your requirements.

She already violated your relationship requirements, not she is violating the requirements for any hope of reconciliation.

You decide. Do not negotiate. Give her no choices other than do exactly what you say you need, or to move on with her life without you.

I know this is difficult, but at least you don't have kids. Once you cut her out of her life, you never have to look back.
 
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