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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This is the first thread i open here in TAM, but not the original reason I joined or began to investigate about healthy relationships, I understand is a contributor of my whole problems and internal issues.

this story is about my parent's relationship, and what me and my sisters think of it after almost 10 years of they being separated.

Also before telling the story, I want to tell you that my mother is a good and respectable woman and besides the story i am about to tell she has never failed in any other aspect as a mother, and not she was not the WS.

my father was 31 when he married my 22 years old not yet mother, i was the first born, and 4 and 5 years later my two sisters came in to the picture.

everything was pretty normal in my house, there were never significant problems, normal couple's fights, my father was/is succesful doctor, so financial problems were never a issue in my house.

All began when i was 15, my father since i have memory, had worked night shift in the hospital 3 days a week besides his private practice, so everybody in the family knew his schedule and where he was without fail. That changed when i was 15, he began to have more shifts in the hospital, but unlike all the previous years this were sporadic days. also when he was supposed to be in his private practice, sometimes we called and he was not there.

also until that moment I maybe had seen my father drunk less than 10 times in my life, but then he began to come home at least 1 a week smelling like alcohol and sometimes times drunk.

i think everybody in the family felt something was off, but the first months we just ignored it, maybe in denial, thinking that my father was not capable to do something immoral, after all he was very respected in the community and was very strict en cuanto a what is right and wrong.

my mother began to be on edge all the time, every little detail made her burst on anger, one day she was on the kitchen and was cutting the vegetables he had put broccoli, i said something like "not broccoli again", and that was enough to began huge fight against me, i told her "chill out! mom, you are on edge all the time", then she said, how would you feel if your husband were cheating on you? (thinking back, how would i know? i was on my first girlfriend, and was a very short thing).

Well she tell me what she was suspecting (as I was) and she told me some friends of her told her the rumors of my father seeing a divorced woman. (this was when my hell began).

At the begining she sent me to check in my car if my father was really where he was supposed to be, maybe two times a week, sometimes he was there other times he was not.

also my parents began to fight almost every day, we (my sisters and I) had never hear them screaming to each other like that.

my mother confronted him indirectly some times but he always denied, as delusions of a jealous woman, sometimes my mother would woke me up at 2 am (night shift) to go and check if my father's car was at the hospital.

finally one day one of my friends (his father was also a doctor who moved in the same social circle) confirmed me that my father was having and affair with the supposed divorced woman.

that was maybe 3 months after my mother shared her suspicions with me, after that the first one to confront my father directly was me, my father told me that my mother was putting ideas in my head, but I confronted him telling him what I knew, the name of the woman, and where she lived,I asked him if he would like for the 2 of us to go with the woman to see if I was delusional, I told him that i was dissapointed on him, how he always was strict with us and unforgiving with thing related to moral and legal issues, i was kind of crying when a iwas telling him this, I told him that i have not told my sisters yet, and i did not wanted to tell them, just my mother and me knee at the time (not true, I had not told my mother what my friend informed me yet, I wanted to talk to him first and then speak to her).

After I confronted him, I told my mother she confronted him too and he promised he would no do it again.

Things began to be normal for a while, but little after that, my mother began to be sarcastic, acid, she would rent movies with topics related to infidelity, many comments related cheaters a how despicable they were (she would do it in dinner and meal times when all the family was together), so many unconfortable dinners. My sisters began to ask what was happening (now I know she was lashing and wasa normal reaction, but at that time i did not understand the need to always make every moment unconfortable).

I was 16 when all the confession thing was done, eventually my sisters found out about the affair situation. My mother continued checking on my father and driving to his office and the hospital, and she requested me more often to go and check on my father location.

during that year they fought all the time, my mother continued to lashing at him, making unconfortable family gatherings and my father began to express that he was not happy anymore, whe I turned 17 was the first time my father spoke to me about not being happy and that he will probably look for another place to live (the classic: things are not working with your mother anymore, but I still love you all), my mother then changed her aptitude she began saying things like "we have to stay together for the kids".

To be honest I was already feed up with all the fights, the unpleasant dinners, the obssesion of my mother to confirm where my father was, so I feel relieved when my father said he was leaving, but my mother convinced him to stay (I remember the frase we have to work it out for the kids, I heard that frase many times).

to be continued....
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
After that, my mother stop lashing at my father, but they still keep fighting for stupids things all the time, my mother now asked almost daily to accompany her to check on my father of requesting me to go and check by myself, she would call me at any hour to do it, while i was with my GF, while i was in parties with my friends, at late night, i had always to came with stupid excuses to stop hanging with my friends and keep playing PI.

I finally refused, I was tired, I told her that my father had already stated that he wanted to leave and she knew it, if she wanted to kept him under the radar to do it herself or let him go, and my mother got angry then something that i did not expect began to happen, she began to lash against me.

First it began with comments like, "oooh well all the men are the same, you are covering so he can keep ****ing women at my back"

I was astonished, in the begining i tried to make her understand that she was wrong, but she keep ranting against me and the comments became nastier.

let me put some that I remember:

"you are despicable how can you support your father affairs you are my son"
"you know what, i have decided it i am also began to sleep with men at his back"
"so you like to cover your father, then you will also cover for my right"


she began to tell my sisters and her family side that i was supporting my father with her affairs, the irony of this is that as she was pestering me about my father affairs, she stopped lashing against my father and became all sweet and gentle towards him.


to be continued....
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
she began to tell my sisters and her family side that i was supporting my father with her affairs, the irony of this is that as she was pestering me about my father affairs, she stopped lashing against my father and became all sweet and gentle towards him.

She lashed against me just when we were alone, nobody was aware to her actions and accusations.

I remember this time when i was in the computer room (using the computer), and she suddenly entered and closed the door and began screaming at me how men are scum and how all men are the same and how all of us are cheaters (she was kind of crying) etc. Then we heard the engine of my father's car she opened the door and while my father was arriving home she said to him "hi honey dinner is ready" I remember feeling something really close to hate towards her.

I began losing weight, i stopped eating, I just didn't want to arrive home, I began to be out of home as much as possible.

she became more delusional she began to tell me how I already have meet with the other woman and how people have seen my father, the other woman and me eating in restaturants.

One day my grandmother (on her side) called home and I answered the phone, she was crying a telling how could I be mistreating my own mother that way?, and that she will come to my home and take her daugther away from us, i remember after that call i went to my room and began to cry, also one of my uncles (one of her 4 brothers) spoke to me for the same reason (all my mother's family is in another state).

I remember that I began to see everything kind of gray, I remember even if the day was hot, and the sun was intense, I could feel my skin hot, but I was feeling cold in my hands and inside my body, I remember that one of the things that help me throught this was jogging, i began to run the 400 meters track daily, first 10 times, then later became 20 times, then later became 20 times in the morning and 20 times in the night, I remember the endorphines help me to feel much better.

to be continued....
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
While all of this was happening, I am sure that at some point my father restarted her affair again, but now it was underground, there were more talks about leaving the home, and more "let's make it work for the kids" from my mother, and then I turned 20 and I was already in college in the same city, but i was absolutly feed up with all the situation, so I told my father i wanted to go backpacker, I was running away, I wanted to have a break from the whole situation ( to be honest the affair did not affected me as much as my mother's mental abuse).

My father forbidden it, he told me i had to finish college, have a career and then do with my life whatever I wanted, (at that point I had not told nobody what was happening with my mother), At the begining my mother and father thought i was joking, when they realized this was not the case, they try to talk seriously with me, I refused.

my mother begged me to stay, I think that in a twisted way i was her mental support. I took my savings and went to another state with a friend who just moved to an appartment to go to college, I began working as dishwasher and I felt much better being away from all the problems .

2 months after I moved my mother called me telling me that my father have finally moved out, I felt that my mother was also blaming me for my father leaving home, as if I was there he had never had the courage to leave home (my father have always been proud of me telling that i am a improved version of himself more taller, more athletic, more handsome, we look a sound alike)

to be continued....
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
almost 8 months later I returned home ( I turned 21 when i was there so i had really fun times and good memories, but also found alot of married women doing things they are not supposed to do, i think that just reinforced my intolerance/mistrust to women but that is for other Thread), when i returned, I embraced my family, I gave them some souvenirs, and then I whistled to my dog, then my mother began giggling and told me she warned about giving away my dog for problems with the neighboors, (she called me 3 months before, telling me to found her a home with my friends, I refused and she never touch the topic again), I got furious, i screamed at her as never before I told her she did it for revenge because I left home, she denied giving me stupids arguments of why she had to give her away.
( I loved that dog, since i was 6 i have been asking for a dog in my birthday, christmas, and any special reward acassion, but my father hated pets, so only after 8 years of requesting the same, they finally allowed me to have the dog).

even with my father gone, my mother continued with the comments like:

"So did you already bonded with your father's new GF"
"you are a mercenary, you are in your father side becuase he have money"
"you have no morals, you sell your respect for money"

To this point other thing happened, I detached from my mother, i just did not care what came from her mouth, it did not affected me anymore, sometimes I even found the comments funny, she began to make the comments in front of my sisters, and my sisters began to be angry at my mother (they were now 16 and 15).

One day we were eating a she say something like "you are just like your father , he is gone but left her horrible personality with you"

my youngest sister got angry a told her, mother stop the crap already, my father is not a demon and Manticore is not the son of demons, so stop bull****ing him aready.

eventually my mother stopped this behaviour, a think it was when we fought on her side on the divorce

but until today my relationship with my mother have not healed, and something that makes me angry now, is that she denies telling and making much o the things she said and did.

I know in my brain that what she did was in part consequence of my father betrayal and her way to cope with her paind a distress, but my hearth have his own thoughts and know that there were many ways to cope with her problems but abusing me.

for many years i was not able to have serious relationship with women, I went to IC where i expressed to my therapist that women were emotional beings that cannot be trusted because they let they emotions overcome logic and act in stupid ways (i know it sounds misogynist, I am sorry if a I am ofending someone but that was like I really used to think).

Before my actual girlfriend I opened just to two women before, one in college and one in my middle 20's, both were party girls, with strong personalities, and the kind of woman who had more male friends than women, both very attractive, but my relationship with them was that of a best friend and non sexual.

i knew everything about them, mestrual cycle, number of sexual partners, darkest secrets, sexual experiences, likes and dislikes on intimacy as they knew mine, both helped me with their friends or girls they knew I have interst in, if I requested it, and they asked me for favors that they will normally not ask to a male friends, like urgently help them to go to the drug store for the pill of the after day, or pregnancy test.

My IC told me I transfromed them in to guys that is why was able to bond like that in a nonsexual way.

Next conclusion...
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
my sisters and I agree that it have been better if they had divorced the first time my father suggested separation, they just keep fighting for another 5 years making themselves and us suffer without neccesity.

we 3 concur that when my father left home we were so stressed about the fights, unconfortable feelings, that we feel relieved instead of feeling sadness .

when my father left home our bond with him did not dissapeared or decreased, maybe it was the other way around, we now planned before hand what activities we were gonna do with him and how expend time with him.

we understood that he was not leaving us, yes we were resentful for having an affair (more my sisters than me, for the problems I had with my mother), and hurting our mother, so it was not like my sisters accepted him in the begining but that was for the affair not for him leaving home.

so My conclusion is, if both parties really want to work out the relationship, and i mean 100% commited then is worth the try, but if one is not and only is staying for the good of the kids, I advise to forget that notion, you may end hurting them more that helping them.

my father was not and he also hurt my mother more in the end.

I wrote this Thread more to let out my feelings, and ,maybe help me to completly forgive my mother once for all.

if you read all, thanks for your patience
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
There is no staying for the kids... There is repentance and forgiveness, but not everyone is capable of that. I am sorry to here your story. You had to grow up way to early.
agree unless both spouses want really to fix the problem with 100% resolution, half commitment will just prolong the inevitable
 

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Manticore, thank you for sharing your story with us.

I believe that is better for a couple to divorce than imprinting hurtful memories in their children.

My father and mother fought all the time. My mother always accused my father of cheating, she would also say hurtful things to us children. She would say to the girls (I have 3 sisters) that men only want one thing and one thing only. THat love didn't exist, etc etc etc.
I grew up feeling unloved and not wanting to ever get married...
Low and behold, I met someone who I thought loved me more than anything and got married to him.

THings were not great but they were good. Of course, I shared my childhood with him.
So whenever my stbxh started having EA, being secretive, being aloof, I would ask if anything was wrong. He would then say "you are acting just like your mother"
I would stop asking, I would rugsweep, I never wanted to get a divorce.
So here I am 15 years later. I felt guilty when I asked for a separation, I thought I was imagining things and acting like my mother even though deep inside I knew all the red flags were real.
My marriage emotionally wreck me. I am a poor insecure shadow (I am working on getting better).

I think it is better to get a divorce than live life hating each other and leaving all these baggage to children.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
agreed, I am talktive, funny, good listener, and i always use stories of my life or my friends to relate topics we are talking to not let conversations die, so many women confused social skills, with being emotionally open, more that one told me in my younger days that I was a emotionally stone
 

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I am sorry to hear your story. I have to say that your mom's psyche was most likely damaged to an extreme with what your father did to her. I know how hard it has been for me and I know how hard your mother had it.

Just remember that. She is probably a little bit broken, but she does love you so please try to forgive her.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am sorry to hear your story. I have to say that your mom's psyche was most likely damaged to an extreme with what your father did to her. I know how hard it has been for me and I know how hard your mother had it.

Just remember that. She is probably a little bit broken, but she does love you so please try to forgive her.
I think that the fact that she now denies many of the things she said, make it more difficult.
 

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manticore;

thank you for your heartfelt and illuminating story. I read the whole thing. I sense like the others that the extreme hurt your mother endured actually drove her mad.

I once worked with an older woman, who I knew liked me (not sexually, just as a human being), but one day, I said something I thought was innocent that triggered her, and she flashed angry eyes at me and said something really nasty, uncalled for.

my colleague overheard and whispered to me; "it wasn't about you, it's because your a man!". I realized when he said that, that she had a long term relationship previously was in love with a supposed Christian man who serial cheated on her. she never got over that. all men were bad. I just happened to be there and say something.
 

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my ex long term gf was married for 34 years to an extreme narcissist abuser. he was emotionally, physically and spiritually abusive. he once raped her sodomized while she was drugged and sent her to the hospital. she almost had to have a colostomy his attack was so severe. he sent her to the hospital several times.
finally after the 4th time he sent her to the hospital, she realized he was going to kill her she left.

she was a very intelligent self sufficient woman with a good career. she was not financially dependent on him. but she always told me "I only stayed 34 years because of the kids. I would walk in front of a truck for them".

Some of the things he did and/or said to her would shock even the people on TAM. yet she stayed 'for the kids'.

far be it from me to be judgemental because I have never thank God been in this situation. I say this without judgment to individuals, every case is different, but rather collectively, I think there are far too, way too many people enduring cheating, physical abuse, mental abuse and complete @$$holism for too long 'because of the kids'.
 

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Sometimes "staying for the kids" is a little more nuanced than "shouty mum and dad life is Hell" vs an "organised every other weekend Hollywood ex's now get on" deal.

Imagine a scenario where you know your spouse will likely hook up with a loser, where, because of the skewed legal system she will still get custody, where an ex might be manipulated by using access to the children. Where the kids will be on their own for extended periods without their father there. Where the type of loser the spouse with primary care for the kids would hook up with would not be a good role model; would have the other spouse neglecting them - not enough to cause the courts to get involved, but in a going out most of the time, not spending time with them, unable to help with the homework, way.

What about if the spouse that leaves is the main carer, but being a man this counts for nothing?

I speak to quite a few adults whose parents split up and they say they were kind of glad. I honestly haven't met one whose parents stayed together that expressed regret for it.

Perhaps I've been lucky, or perhaps this area is the subject of a powerful - and entirely understandable - confirmatory bias.
 

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That was a moving story. Parents do not always perform like adults and they pass their dysfunctional behavior on to the next generation. Your mother's abuse was horrible and her refusal to admit makes in worse.

My father abused me emotionally as child. My mother knows it and I would like to say something to her. But she is her 80s and I can't bring myself to end her life in a depression.

Sadly, though, I find it difficult to call her and write her. I resent her inability to stand up to my father. I know she couldn't. He was angry and would have given her a terrible fury in response.

The sad thing is once they get older they don't have the strength to be angry. It just winds down without any justice. Sometimes I would just like to swear and curse or guzzle a bottle of whisky. Bet you felt the same way at times.

There a few spelling/typos that you could fix, but thank you for sharing.

Where you ever able to go college? You didn't remain a dishwasher, but I expect you did that punish your folks. I dreamed of running away. Man, it sucks when the people who love you betray you when you are vulnerable. I think that betrayal is comparable to infidelity. I read about infidelity and think about child abuse.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
far be it from me to be judgemental because I have never thank God been in this situation. I say this without judgment to individuals, every case is different, but rather collectively, I think there are far too, way too many people enduring cheating, physical abuse, mental abuse and complete @$$holism for too long 'because of the kids'.
yes but this kind of circunastances end being worst, I have hear many times people saying that they don't split up because they want to give to the children a home with two parents, but they are so dysfunctional together that i doubt that they can be as efficient as a single parent with his/her psyche at 100%.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
I speak to quite a few adults whose parents split up and they say they were kind of glad. I honestly haven't met one whose parents stayed together that expressed regret for it.

Perhaps I've been lucky, or perhaps this area is the subject of a powerful - and entirely understandable - confirmatory bias.
Chris you have to understand that people don't talk about this subjects easily, I have never shared this story as detailed with my friends or GF's, when my parents divorced, people felt bad for my family and told me many times "what a shame", or "I hope you are doing all right",I never answered them, "dont worry, things at home were awful, i was so happy when they split", I just said "thank you".

If my parents, were still together today at my 31 years, things probably will be still awful, the difference is that I am in my appartment where I dont have to endure all that my mother did to me.

If they were still toghether I probably will had never shared that story to the few friends i have been close enough to let them know part of the events that happened back then.

I would be probably acting as if everything were all right at home, just visiting in holydays and special dates.

To this day I have never told my father all the things my mother said and did to me back then.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
My father abused me emotionally as child. My mother knows it and I would like to say something to her. But she is her 80s and I can't bring myself to end her life in a depression.

Sadly, though, I find it difficult to call her and write her. I resent her inability to stand up to my father.
I understand you

the first time I confronted my mother about the past (in my middle 20's), besides denying and justifying most of what happened, she also told me that in her times sons/daugthers never confronted their parents, that her mother also have done and said things to her when she was young, but she was respectful enough to not fight her for the past.
 

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I understand you

the first time I confronted my mother about the past (in my middle 20's), besides denying and justifying most of what happened, she also told me that in her times sons/daugthers never confronted their parents, that her mother also have done and said things to her when she was young, but she was respectful enough to not fight her for the past.
It took a lot of heart to write your story and I just want to say I hear you loud and clear. It's difficult enough, but to put that kind of resentment onto your children is unspeakable.

It does not matter if sons and daughters didn't confront their parents in the past (which I think is the reason for a lot of dysfunction), you confront her and she has the obligation to deal with her mistakes. Sadly, it doesn't look like she will. It leaves you to deal with it on your own and I am sorry this happened to you. Maybe if you can get a good therapist (sorry if you have already, don't remember reading that if you did) there will be an easier and faster route to healing. I understand trauma takes years and years to heal from. I am just wishing you the best. :)
 
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