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Dude Im starting to think you are a troll. If not you are the most naive man walking the planet. You live in a hallmark movie fantasy world of roses and chocolates. read the books I recommended in my prior post. Read them for your own sake. Stop putting your head in the sand. read the thread by Joka (old thread 2014). He realized he was a chump. You are the stable guy she sees as providing a safe home and respectability. Your the plain vanilla commitment beta guy. She's going to get bored fast. Read the Predatory Female for another version of what marriage is. One you are not aware of. It was written by an airline pilot. You are going to end up as a future chump. Does this chick have a high body count? Big red flag. Is she seeing other guys? I bet you have suspicions. Does she talk about other men? Find out her whereabouts when you don't see her for a few days and she texts you stuff like "miss you"; "thinking of you". She might have an ex on the side. things to consider. Why does she want to marry you? Due diligence. It beats the misery of what Joka and many others went through. You don't seem like a confident leader to me.
OP I think that the thought of ending this relationship is too hard, so you are overlooking what is clear as day. Her suggesting that you go and have sex with another woman would be enough for me to know that its time for me to end things. I mean you are supposed to be engaged. Why is she saying such stupid things unless she has already cheated on you and thinks that you doing he same would sort of even things up if you ever found out? Honestly, in your position I would be doing some deep investigating.
 

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OP I think that the thought of ending this relationship is too hard, so you are overlooking what is clear as day. .
Most people have been brought up with traditional beliefs, values and behaviors (that is why they are considered "traditional" LOL )

One of the challenges people with deep-seated traditional beliefs and values face is that they believe others subscribe to those same beliefs, values and behaviors as well.

They have a lot of assumptions and presumptions of what it means to be engaged, what it means to be married and what marital sexuality and fidelity etc shall entail. He has likely assumed that since they have been dating, have had sex and that she somewhat accepted his proposal that they shall have this traditional relationship and that she will put her errant ways behind her and become this dutiful little wifey that subscribes to traditional values and behaviors. He is having trouble reconciling that assumption of her future with her past behavior (AS WELL HE SHOULD!)

The catch here is this gal is not traditional and is not your average soprano in the church choir (figurately speaking)

She has embraced alternative lifestyles such as BDSM, for money as well as with married men, as well as having relationships with other women and encouraging him to explore his sexuality with other women before moving forward with their engagement and potential marriage.

This isn't simply about cheating. It is about living and embracing alternative vs traditional values and lifestyles.

using John Gottman's analogy, she is a sexual Ferrari and he is a sexual moped.

They are two different classifications of people from two different worlds.
 

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Most people have been brought up with traditional beliefs, values and behaviors (that is why they are considered "traditional" LOL )

One of the challenges people with deep-seated traditional beliefs and values face is that they believe others subscribe to those same beliefs, values and behaviors as well.

They have a lot of assumptions and presumptions of what it means to be engaged, what it means to be married and what marital sexuality and fidelity etc shall entail. He has likely assumed that since they have been dating, have had sex and that she somewhat accepted his proposal that they shall have this traditional relationship and that she will put her errant ways behind her and become this dutiful little wifey that subscribes to traditional values and behaviors. He is having trouble reconciling that assumption of her future with her past behavior (AS WELL HE SHOULD!)

The catch here is this gal is not traditional and is not your average soprano in the church choir (figurately speaking)

She has embraced alternative lifestyles such as BDSM, for money as well as with married men, as well as having relationships with other women and encouraging him to explore his sexuality with other women before moving forward with their engagement and potential marriage.

This isn't simply about cheating. It is about living and embracing alternative vs traditional values and lifestyles.

using John Gottman's analogy, she is a sexual Ferrari and he is a sexual moped.

They are two different classifications of people from two different worlds.
Yes I agree, they are so far apart. I am not sure I agree that those bought up one way expect others to be the same though. I never did.
 

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Seems to me that many folks on TAM are saying the same type thing (on either side), but not really convincing OP because his stance is not logical. Evidence suggests you did not 'put it out of my mind.'

For future consideration:
1. Hard to believe that at least one of your buddies/associates has never discussed his concerns with you.
2. If, for some reason you are unable to work and support your family, would you be ok with her supporting y'all with this line of work?
3. Is she the hottest woman to whom you have ever been devoted? What about her attracts you most?
4. How would you handle it should your child come home crying from school because of what some kid had told him or her about Mommie?
5. Each of you deserve to live the life of your beliefs. How is that possible under the varying circumstances you describe?
6. Why have you 'trickle-truthed' us with her sexual proclivities--unless you thought that might affect our advice?
 

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Most people have been brought up with traditional beliefs, values and behaviors (that is why they are considered "traditional" LOL )

One of the challenges people with deep-seated traditional beliefs and values face is that they believe others subscribe to those same beliefs, values and behaviors as well.

They have a lot of assumptions and presumptions of what it means to be engaged, what it means to be married and what marital sexuality and fidelity etc shall entail. He has likely assumed that since they have been dating, have had sex and that she somewhat accepted his proposal that they shall have this traditional relationship and that she will put her errant ways behind her and become this dutiful little wifey that subscribes to traditional values and behaviors. He is having trouble reconciling that assumption of her future with her past behavior (AS WELL HE SHOULD!)

The catch here is this gal is not traditional and is not your average soprano in the church choir (figurately speaking)

She has embraced alternative lifestyles such as BDSM, for money as well as with married men, as well as having relationships with other women and encouraging him to explore his sexuality with other women before moving forward with their engagement and potential marriage.

This isn't simply about cheating. It is about living and embracing alternative vs traditional values and lifestyles.

using John Gottman's analogy, she is a sexual Ferrari and he is a sexual moped.

They are two different classifications of people from two different worlds.
I miss quoted.

It was not John Gorman that made the sexual Ferrari vs moped analogy.

It was Dr Daniel Glover.
 

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@zbrown210 , I would recommend you look up the term “Covert Contracts” and become very familiar with that concept.

I think you may have some covert contracts at play here that I believe will come back and bite you in the arse very hard.

I think you are expecting some attitudes, beliefs, behaviors and expectations of her that she may not be willing or even capable of carrying out.

You are going to need some very hard and serious discussions on whether you two are a match and if this relationship is right for either one of you.
 

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Discussion Starter #167
Dude Im starting to think you are a troll. If not you are the most naive man walking the planet. You live in a hallmark movie fantasy world of roses and chocolates. read the books I recommended in my prior post. Read them for your own sake. Stop putting your head in the sand. read the thread by Joka (old thread 2014). He realized he was a chump. You are the stable guy she sees as providing a safe home and respectability. Your the plain vanilla commitment beta guy. She's going to get bored fast. Read the Predatory Female for another version of what marriage is. One you are not aware of. It was written by an airline pilot. You are going to end up as a future chump. Does this chick have a high body count? Big red flag. Is she seeing other guys? I bet you have suspicions. Does she talk about other men? Find out her whereabouts when you don't see her for a few days and she texts you stuff like "miss you"; "thinking of you". She might have an ex on the side. things to consider. Why does she want to marry you? Due diligence. It beats the misery of what Joka and many others went through. You don't seem like a confident leader to me.
I can promise you I'm not a troll. I can also promise that I'm not the unconfident leader you think I am. Yes I may be someone who values commitment but that doesnt mean I am a beta man. On the contrary I value commitment and value the commitment that we both have put I to the relationship thus far that's why I'm not just going to throw it away willy nilly. I can track her phone and know her whereabouts every min we are apart. I do agree that due diligence is needed and part of that is coming on a place like her to get advice on things I may not have thought about.

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I dont know if she wants to have a threesome but rather she thinks I should have like a 1 night stand before we get married

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I think her saying that means SHE will not be satisfied with a monogamous marriage and SHE will want to get some other action through life and not be stuck with just you. That is why she doesn't care if you do it...it makes it easier for her to be able to do it too.

I do not expect her to be a faithful, monogamous, till death wife who will only be sexual with you.
She wants other stuff and other people too to "keep it fresh".
Her being willing to do this stuff sexually to other married men, her stating YOU will be bored with monogamy and you need some other women and her apparently being ok with that....these are red flags everywhere that your values and hers do not match up and she will not be monogamous going into the future.
 

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I think her saying that means SHE will not be satisfied with a monogamous marriage and SHE will want to get some other action through life and not be stuck with just you. That is why she doesn't care if you do it...it makes it easier for her to be able to do it too.

I do not expect her to be a faithful, monogamous, till death wife who will only be sexual with you.
She wants other stuff and other people too to "keep it fresh".
Her being willing to do this stuff sexually to other married men, her stating YOU will be bored with monogamy and you need some other women and her apparently being ok with that....these are red flags everywhere that your values and hers do not match up and she will not be monogamous going into the future.
This is called projection. She is applying her values onto him and assuming that he will want to be with other people as well. She isn't connecting the dots that he is relationship oriented and traditionally monogamous in his attitudes and values, just like he isn't connecting the dots that she is not traditional and monogamous.

They are each seeing each other through their own lenses. We all do that to a certain degree but it is important for him to open his eyes and see clearly what he is getting himself in to.
 

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I can promise you I'm not a troll. I can also promise that I'm not the unconfident leader you think I am. Yes I may be someone who values commitment but that doesnt mean I am a beta man. On the contrary I value commitment and value the commitment that we both have put I to the relationship thus far that's why I'm not just going to throw it away willy nilly. I can track her phone and know her whereabouts every min we are apart. I do agree that due diligence is needed and part of that is coming on a place like her to get advice on things I may not have thought about.

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So, knowing what she knows about how you think, your values, how do you rationalize her belief that you should have a one-night-stand or similar prior to marriage?
 

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I want to add one other thing.

I get the feeling you may be a bit of a rescuer and a white knight with a bit of a Knight In Shining Armor complex.

A part of you may see her as a damsel in distress that needs rescuing and that if you rescue her then she will repay you with her love and desire and fidelity.

FULL STOP 🛑 DONT DON’T DO THIS!!

For starters, I don’t think she’s a damsel in distress that needs rescuing. I’m beginning to think she is more aware of and understands the situation here better than you do.

I’m beginning to think this is a self-aware woman that knows the score and better understands the nature and complexity of the situation than you do.

She has embraced and accepted a non traditional lifestyle and doesn’t have a problem with it.

She understands you have an issue with it and wants you to understand who and what she is and wants you to make an informed and conscious choice on whether you will fully accept her as she really is or not.

That’s not a damsel in distress that needs rescuing. That’s a self-aware woman that needs you to grow a pair and make a hard decision about your future.

I’m beginning to think she may not be some drug addicted, train wreck with daddy issues that is desperate to find some beta boy that will put a roof over her head and provide for her disputes her past.

I’m beginning to think she is a self-aware woman that wants to know if you have what it takes to be with a woman like her or not.

That will be one of the biggest and most influential decisions of you life. Make it wisely.
Dude you have a hard on for that prostitute. lol
 

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I can promise you I'm not a troll. I can also promise that I'm not the unconfident leader you think I am. Yes I may be someone who values commitment but that doesnt mean I am a beta man. On the contrary I value commitment and value the commitment that we both have put I to the relationship thus far that's why I'm not just going to throw it away willy nilly. I can track her phone and know her whereabouts every min we are apart. I do agree that due diligence is needed and part of that is coming on a place like her to get advice on things I may not have thought about.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Her suggesting that you go and have sex with someonee else isnt her being committed. Far from it. Also if you cant trust her without tracking her what does that say?
 

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Dude you have a hard on for that prostitute. lol
Not a hard on.

But I think she is more aware of the situation and looking at things more realistically than he is.

With each new post he makes, he sounds more like he has his head in the sand and she sounds more like she is looking at the situation more realistically than he is.

That doesn't mean I want her to go out for luncheons with my mother and sister or bear my children and share a mortgage and retirement account with me (I don't even do that with my wife of 25 years), nor do I necessarily think he should either.
 

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Not a hard on.

But I think she is more aware of the situation and looking at things more realistically than he is.

With each new post he makes, he sounds more like he has his head in the sand and she sounds more like she is looking at the situation more realistically than he is.

That doesn't mean I want her to go out for luncheons with my mother and sister or bear my children and share a mortgage and retirement account with me (I don't even do that with my wife of 25 years), nor do I necessarily think he should either.
So does she. Why is SHE with this guy? She's as slow and misguided as him. They are both insane for trying to be with the other in a "marriage".
Neither one of them should have anything to do with the other romantically.
 

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So does she. Why is SHE with this guy? She's as slow and misguided as him. They are both insane for trying to be with the other in a "marriage".
Neither one of them should have anything to do with the other romantically.
If we took insanity and misguided relationships out of the mix, the human race would be gone in less than 100 years.
 

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She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married.
All other things aside, ^^THIS^^ is a clear indication that you two are incompatible when it comes to your views and approach to sex. C'mon man ... there just HAS to be another woman on this planet you can fall in love with who actually has a similar outlook on sex!
 

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....
She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. ...
That is a huge red flag. She is probably trying to relieve her guilt for cheating on you. At the least, it shows terrible boundaries and a screwed up view of a monogamous relationship.
 

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She has also said on several occasions she thinks I'll get bored with monogamy since I've only had a couple sexual partners in my life, and thinks I should (with her permission) sleep with another person before we get married. I have expressed that I am firmly against this and I would consider anything of the such cheating.

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This of course is the quote of the day. But there's more to it than just her suggesting he should sleep with someone else.

She has done so on several occasions. Despite his protestations that it doesn't fit his views/ethics/morals, she keeps at it. So, to @zbrown210 - is this a suggestion, a request, or a demand? Is this something where she doesn't see a future if you don't? Because it seems strange she'd keep at you for something you've made it clear you're uncomfortable with.

Is the problem that you've forgotten your "safe" word and can't escape?
 

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ZBrown,

One thing I’ve noticed, in the small amount that you wrote, is that your fiancé has not had long relationships in the past. Even your engagement has happened in just 8 months.

You might want to look into why her marriage failed, and even why her lesbian relationship failed, were both due to cheating, or some sort of swing/poly that went sour.

It’s often true that a person who cheats in a relationship will claim abuse or rewrite history when in fact the disorder began with their cheating.

Curious that her “friends” were in the BDSM community, you have to ask why she had those friends.

It is also especially worrisome that she gets upset if you dig into her past too much, I would suspect there is a lot there and many ex’es you need to know about.
This is known as historical honesty, if she thinks your number is too low it implies that her number is too high. If she’s not willing to divulge her past then you should end it.

I really think you can keep your job or your fiancé but not both, and I don't think you can keep your fiance long term.

Her allowing you cheat on you is a really big red flag and shows she is not monogamous, and this is a baby step, in her mind, into a completely open marriage.

From everything you wrote however, I would just end it.
 

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A final thought. Some pre-marriage marriage counseling might be a good idea. Many of the comments are about setting marriage boundaries. Some of her concerns are about marriage/sex getting boring. These should be things that are explicitly discussed before marriage. Also having a vision of what the two of them envision in 5, 10, 15, 25 years may help determine if they are both entering into a marriage they want to last until death, or one that will last only as long as it still remains fun and easy. As someone who has been married to the same woman for 49 years, marriages have rough spots and it is the commitment of both partners that can keep things going during the hard times. Now is a good time to find out about each others boundaries and commitment to a long term marriage.
 
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