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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Andy, relax, breathe, then think.

J accused you of manipulating her away from family and friend. The accusation is not unexpected. She has been through several big changes recently. Her business has failed (before you bought it). She faced bankrupcy. She was kicked out by her mother. She found she is pregnant. She lost her fiancée (for a while). Her greatest tragedy is probably that her son's father abandoned them, and it seemed to have happened again. People who have been through such changes look for reasons. Self reflection is rarely fast. So she picked you as the reason. Who else could she blame?

Thankfully she quickly reflected and saw you weren't the reason. You might GENTLY prod her toward seeing the reality of her toxic friends and mother. But be careful, it is could be seen as the manipulation she accused you of.

I agree with the therapist that she needs female friends. Everyone needs friends. Otherwise she may drift back to her toxic friends. It is not your problem to solve, but you might help her towards making new friends by joining new mothers clubs etc.

And bad as her mother is, she is still family, J will talk to her family again. You can't and shouldn't try to stop her.
 

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Discussion Starter #862 (Edited)
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Andy, relax, breathe, then think.

J accused you of manipulating her away from family and friend. The accusation is not unexpected. She has been through several big changes recently. Her business has failed (before you bought it). She faced bankrupcy. She was kicked out by her mother. She found she is pregnant. She lost her fiancée (for a while). Her greatest tragedy is probably that her son's father abandoned them, and it seemed to have happened again. People who have been through such changes look for reasons. Self reflection is rarely fast. So she picked you as the reason. Who else could she blame?

Thankfully she quickly reflected and saw you weren't the reason. You might GENTLY prod her toward seeing the reality of her toxic friends and mother. But be careful, it is could be seen as the manipulation she accused you of.

I agree with the therapist that she needs female friends. Everyone needs friends. Otherwise she may drift back to her toxic friends. It is not your problem to solve, but you might help her towards making new friends by joining new mothers clubs etc.

And bad as her mother is, she is still family, J will talk to her family again. You can't and shouldn't try to stop her.
Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read about my problems.I have told J that I have no problem with her getting back in contact with her family and I'm not going to say anything at all about her mother.However I'm not prepared to pretend everything is forgotten about or forgiven,that is my biggest problem with J,she accepts too much at face value and then ends up being hurt by people she should be able to trust.She is moving in here today and I hope it is permanent even though she still has over three months of her lease left.Im going to try harder to get her to trust me and also try to get more involved with her son.He is a great kid and has been through a lot in the last while.
Owning this fcukin gym is getting on my nerves and I'm either going to sell it or else give it to J an Ally to run together.The guy I have managing it can't get his wife to move here so reading between the lines I think he is going to quit. It's a pity because he is doing a great job,I will offer him more money but I honestly don't think he will stay.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read about my problems.I have told J that I have no problem with her getting back in contact with her family and I'm not going to say anything at all about her mother.However I'm not prepared to pretend everything is forgotten about or forgiven,that is my biggest problem with J,she accepts too much at face value and then ends up being hurt by people she should be able to trust.She is moving in here today and I hope it is permanent even though she still has over three months of her lease left.Im going to try harder to get her to trust me and also try to get more involved with her son.He is a great kid and has been through a lot in the last while.
I would probably be the same way. I don't forget, in this situation I could be civil but would be very cold. My wife opens up the friendship again and gets hurt a second time. I suggest trying to explain how you feel, that you personally want no contact but that J is of course free to do as she wants. It is a difficult position. Family is family.
And this is part of the reason J needs other friends. What are the neighbours like?

Owning this fcukin gym is getting on my nerves and I'm either going to sell it or else give it to J an Ally to run together.The guy I have managing it can't get his wife to move here so reading between the lines I think he is going to quit. It's a pity because he is doing a great job,I will offer him more money but I honestly don't think he will stay.
I think you said the guy was an ex-olympian. If he quits maybe he can recommend another olympian as a replacement.
Offering it to J and Ally seems good, IF they both want it. My guess is they would be a good balance for each other. But J may not want to work for the business she used to own. It is also a step down as she used to be sole manager, now it would be a shared role. And J may not want to be given a job, she may want to earn it.
 

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Discussion Starter #864
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Problem is she is pregnant. Her hormone levels are most likely going crazy and that may very well accompanied by mood swings etc. Add the whole situation with her family and OP. It's hard to filter that in a therapy situation. For her and the therapist, and OP over all others. OP, you are so clueless it's almost cute.
Ok,telling me I'm clueless is all very well but not really helping.Telling me what I'm clueless about would help.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read about my problems.I have told J that I have no problem with her getting back in contact with her family and I'm not going to say anything at all about her mother.However I'm not prepared to pretend everything is forgotten about or forgiven,that is my biggest problem with J,she accepts too much at face value and then ends up being hurt by people she should be able to trust.She is moving in here today and I hope it is permanent even though she still has over three months of her lease left.Im going to try harder to get her to trust me and also try to get more involved with her son.He is a great kid and has been through a lot in the last while.
Owning this fcukin gym is getting on my nerves and I'm either going to sell it or else give it to J an Ally to run together.The guy I have managing it can't get his wife to move here so reading between the lines I think he is going to quit. It's a pity because he is doing a great job,I will offer him more money but I honestly don't think he will stay.


I thought the whole point of her lease was so she could get some independence, as you said she hadn't lived on her own. I wouldn't be in any hurry to get her to move in. She's only been on her own a couple of months. And it may make her feel even more like you are controlling her. I don't think you are, but pregnancy emotions are crazy!

Independence is pretty important in a relationship. She's not going to learn to have any if she moves straight from her mother to you, which is essentially what has happened. She will be with you the majority of the time after the baby is born anyway. Give her the pregnancy to sort her head out.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I would probably be the same way. I don't forget, in this situation I could be civil but would be very cold. My wife opens up the friendship again and gets hurt a second time. I suggest trying to explain how you feel, that you personally want no contact but that J is of course free to do as she wants. It is a difficult position. Family is family.
And this is part of the reason J needs other friends. What are the neighbours like?


I think you said the guy was an ex-olympian. If he quits maybe he can recommend another olympian as a replacement.
Offering it to J and Ally seems good, IF they both want it. My guess is they would be a good balance for each other. But J may not want to work for the business she used to own. It is also a step down as she used to be sole manager, now it would be a shared role. And J may not want to be given a job, she may want to earn it.
Thanks again for the advice.The area I live in is very secure and also very expensive.Their are twelve properties and only one has came up for sale in the last few years and I bought it for my daughter.I really only know my neighbor who owns hooch the seeing eye dog,most of the others I am only on nodding terms with.A few of them seem to travel a lot and only use their house occasionally.I think I'm the youngest resident by quite a few years so there isn't really anyone of Js age for her to talk to.
I was very lucky to get this guy to manage my gym and the amount of business he has brought in is extraordinarily,we had to extend opening times and in January we are going 24/7.I may ask him to stay working for me even if it is only a couple of days a week,he can do the paperwork at home.I will offer him a big raise but he has already told me it's not the money.Ally is very keen to buy the gym but I really would like for J to be involved.
This fcukin gym has caused me more trouble in three months than my own business has caused in ten years but in typical Andy fashion it is making a fortune.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Ok,telling me I'm clueless is all very well but not really helping.Telling me what I'm clueless about would help.
Pregnant women. And their mood swings. Some make bipolar people look sane. Just take everything with a grain of salt and take your time to think about the stuff she says before you react to it. It can easily happen that she changes her mind in a couple of days/hours/minutes. Especially in her situation with her family, your relationship, her son and her job situation. It's just a lot to handle.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I thought the whole point of her lease was so she could get some independence, as you said she hadn't lived on her own. I wouldn't be in any hurry to get her to move in. She's only been on her own a couple of months. And it may make her feel even more like you are controlling her. I don't think you are, but pregnancy emotions are crazy!

Independence is pretty important in a relationship. She's not going to learn to have any if she moves straight from her mother to you, which is essentially what has happened. She will be with you the majority of the time after the baby is born anyway. Give her the pregnancy to sort her head out.
I know her being independent is very important both to me and her.The thing is she is very lonely where she is and with there being no contact with her sisters she has no female company except when Ally calls over.This is just for Christmas at the moment and I want to see how we get along living together.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I know her being independent is very important both to me and her.The thing is she is very lonely where she is and with there being no contact with her sisters she has no female company except when Ally calls over.This is just for Christmas at the moment and I want to see how we get along living together.
I was going to comment on her moving in so soon, but I think her being pregnant and lonely is a bigger problem, especially at Christmas.

What about you move in with her? This is not about who has the best house. This is about building her independence.

The most important thing though is to keep talking and listening. And it seems like that is happening.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I was going to comment on her moving in so soon, but I think her being pregnant and lonely is a bigger problem, especially at Christmas.

What about you move in with her? This is not about who has the best house. This is about building her independence.

The most important thing though is to keep talking and listening. And it seems like that is happening.
The bolded is a really good idea, Andy. You could move into her world, instead of asking her to move into yours. That would make her feel more comfortable, I bet, and build her trust.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Thanks again for the advice.The area I live in is very secure and also very expensive.Their are twelve properties and only one has came up for sale in the last few years and I bought it for my daughter.I really only know my neighbor who owns hooch the seeing eye dog,most of the others I am only on nodding terms with.A few of them seem to travel a lot and only use their house occasionally.I think I'm the youngest resident by quite a few years so there isn't really anyone of Js age for her to talk to.
I was very lucky to get this guy to manage my gym and the amount of business he has brought in is extraordinarily,we had to extend opening times and in January we are going 24/7.I may ask him to stay working for me even if it is only a couple of days a week,he can do the paperwork at home.I will offer him a big raise but he has already told me it's not the money.Ally is very keen to buy the gym but I really would like for J to be involved.
This fcukin gym has caused me more trouble in three months than my own business has caused in ten years but in typical Andy fashion it is making a fortune.
Ok so your neighbours don't seem obvious friends for J.
I think J is renting outside your complex. So what about her neighbours? Maybe ask if she knows them yet. Suggest she gets to know them. Or suggest she joins clubs, or helps at her son's school. She needs something to do and she needs friends. You can't force a solution, but you should suggest ideas and try to help.

If Ally wants to buy the gym then make sure she understands that the current manager may leave. I think Ally looked at the gym's books earlier when it was nearly broke. She needs to understand that could happen again. The new equipment helped, but I think it is the current manager. Building up a gym probably requires a figurehead, someone like an olympian. Ally and J may have many skills, but may not be suited.
And the reason you should care is Ally is J's one good friend at the moment. If the gym fails, Ally would go broke and J would loose a job. And it could be seen as your fault. Safer to sell it to a stranger.

Also, not sure if J wants the job at the gym, or you want to give it to her. Let her make the choice. And if she does want it, let her fight for the job. You didn't like that J employed her sisters, but you seem about to do the same thing.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

The bolded is a really good idea, Andy. You could move into her world, instead of asking her to move into yours. That would make her feel more comfortable, I bet, and build her trust.


I 100% agree. It will show that you are making an effort to fit into her life. Not you trying to smush her into yours. I think you will get a different perspective on things if you move into her world and let her "wear the pants" of the relationship for a while.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

The bolded is a really good idea, Andy. You could move into her world, instead of asking her to move into yours. That would make her feel more comfortable, I bet, and build her trust.
J has moved in with me now,at least for Christmas but I will give your suggestion some thought.The idea of living in someone else's house kind of scares me though and I haven't done it in a long time.Also her house isn't very big,no pool and I would have to leave before three am every day,my business is ran from my house and mainly operates on European time.I have to be available for the start of business every morning.This normally just takes a couple of hours or less but I suppose I could set up something remote if necessary.
I bought Js son out with me and the dog this morning and on the way back we stopped at the gym for a minute,Js youngest sister was working and to be fair she made a fuss of him and brought him out for ice cream.I asked her how things were going but she just said fine.I would like for her to call over to the house but it is up to J.I don't know if I went to far with her family but we are where we are.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

J has moved in with me now,at least for Christmas but I will give your suggestion some thought.The idea of living in someone else's house kind of scares me though and I haven't done it in a long time.Also her house isn't very big,no pool and I would have to leave before three am every day,my business is ran from my house and mainly operates on European time.I have to be available for the start of business every morning.This normally just takes a couple of hours or less but I suppose I could set up something remote if necessary.
I bought Js son out with me and the dog this morning and on the way back we stopped at the gym for a minute,Js youngest sister was working and to be fair she made a fuss of him and brought him out for ice cream.I asked her how things were going but she just said fine.I would like for her to call over to the house but it is up to J.I don't know if I went to far with her family but we are where we are.
Yes the idea of living in someone else's house may be scary. J may be going through the same fears, she is loosing what little indepence she had, she is 'wasting' the rent money. Fear doesn't mean we don't act. IF you want to marry, I guarantee that path is scary too.

I hate getting up that early, but that is me. I think you said lived on just a few hours sleep, so a 3AM rise is what you are used to.

Another half way between moving houses is to discuss the choice with J, talk and listen. Let her know you are willing to move, either now or later. Let her air any fears. Discuss both options and see what she wants. It will build some trust and may reduce possible feelings that she is being manipulated. You have more money, better house, better job, some may think you might use them to manipulate (not that I think it), so discuss choices openly.
The later, if she is on side, perhaps you both discuss it with her son. My guess is he wants the pool, bigger bedroom, bigger TV, walks with hooch, ..., so his is an obvious choice, but bring him into the discussion. Again this may help build trust.

My guess is you didn't go to far with J's family. And the talk with her sister is a good small step to repair things. Now you must discuss with J what she wants to do. Maybe she wants to meet them at her place, or yours, or just her sisters first, or telephone first. Despite her mother being so bad, she is still her mother, and family is family. I guess being separated from her family at Christmas will be a weight for J, she should at least be trying to start repairing things, or talk it out with you. She needs friends and family.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Yes the idea of living in someone else's house may be scary. J may be going through the same fears, she is loosing what little indepence she had, she is 'wasting' the rent money. Fear doesn't mean we don't act. IF you want to marry, I guarantee that path is scary too.

I hate getting up that early, but that is me. I think you said lived on just a few hours sleep, so a 3AM rise is what you are used to.

Another half way between moving houses is to discuss the choice with J, talk and listen. Let her know you are willing to move, either now or later. Let her air any fears. Discuss both options and see what she wants. It will build some trust and may reduce possible feelings that she is being manipulated. You have more money, better house, better job, some may think you might use them to manipulate (not that I think it), so discuss choices openly.
The later, if she is on side, perhaps you both discuss it with her son. My guess is he wants the pool, bigger bedroom, bigger TV, walks with hooch, ..., so his is an obvious choice, but bring him into the discussion. Again this may help build trust.

My guess is you didn't go to far with J's family. And the talk with her sister is a good small step to repair things. Now you must discuss with J what she wants to do. Maybe she wants to meet them at her place, or yours, or just her sisters first, or telephone first. Despite her mother being so bad, she is still her mother, and family is family. I guess being separated from her family at Christmas will be a weight for J, she should at least be trying to start repairing things, or talk it out with you. She needs friends and family.
Hello again.I know it was you who originally suggested that I moved in with J but I accidentally quoted someone else when I answered.My apologies.
I talked to my gym manager today and he gave me formal notice of two weeks that he is quitting.The poor guy was almost in tears but his wife refuses to move and they have two young children so I understand completely.He is a real nice guy and I hate to lose him.I asked him about maybe coming over here for a couple of days each week but it would be a long commute for him.I may have had a brainwave though.I am going to give Ally the managers job and ask J to mentor her in running it.She will get a salary and I will be strictly hands off.My accountants will still check the books fortnightly.If this doesn't work I am going to sell the place to Ally.
The reason I said I have to get up at before three am is I don't want to wake J and her son.A few weeks ago I would have just paid the rental money myself but I'm learning J doesn't like it when I do this.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Hello again.I know it was you who originally suggested that I moved in with J but I accidentally quoted someone else when I answered.My apologies.
I talked to my gym manager today and he gave me formal notice of two weeks that he is quitting.The poor guy was almost in tears but his wife refuses to move and they have two young children so I understand completely.He is a real nice guy and I hate to lose him.I asked him about maybe coming over here for a couple of days each week but it would be a long commute for him.I may have had a brainwave though.I am going to give Ally the managers job and ask J to mentor her in running it.She will get a salary and I will be strictly hands off.My accountants will still check the books fortnightly.If this doesn't work I am going to sell the place to Ally.
The reason I said I have to get up at before three am is I don't want to wake J and her son.A few weeks ago I would have just paid the rental money myself but I'm learning J doesn't like it when I do this.
Did you ask the gym manager if he could recommend another olympian as a replacement?

I don't see your brainwave quite so positively, especially if things go badly. And with the olympian leaving things may drift back to where they were before. He knew how to run a gym. I fear no-one else around can do such a good job. I don't want to be rude, but Ally has never run a gym (I think) and J almost run it into the ground. Both Ally and J could see you as manipulating them, or leaving them with a lemon. Have you talked to Ally and J and seen if they are interested? But anyway, I think the biggest problem is NOT J's employment status, it is her loneliness.

You could mention the current manager is leaving and does J have any ideas. She may know other people who could do it. You might mention it to Ally too. Then you might ask if they are interested. But talk first.

And if it doesn't work then DON'T sell it to Ally. Her friendship to you and J is worth more than the sale price of the gym.

Good to see you are learning. Don't pay her rent, especially don't do it without asking. She still has money from the gym sale. She can ask for help if she needs it. You can ask her if she needs help.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Did you ask the gym manager if he could recommend another olympian as a replacement?

I don't see your brainwave quite so positively, especially if things go badly. And with the olympian leaving things may drift back to where they were before. He knew how to run a gym. I fear no-one else around can do such a good job. I don't want to be rude, but Ally has never run a gym (I think) and J almost run it into the ground. Both Ally and J could see you as manipulating them, or leaving them with a lemon. Have you talked to Ally and J and seen if they are interested? But anyway, I think the biggest problem is NOT J's employment status, it is her loneliness.

You could mention the current manager is leaving and does J have any ideas. She may know other people who could do it. You might mention it to Ally too. Then you might ask if they are interested. But talk first.

And if it doesn't work then DON'T sell it to Ally. Her friendship to you and J is worth more than the sale price of the gym.

Good to see you are learning. Don't pay her rent, especially don't do it without asking. She still has money from the gym sale. She can ask for help if she needs it. You can ask her if she needs help.
I gave this some thought and you are probably right about getting another figure head to run the gym.I used a recruitment agency to get my current guy so I will probably go back there.J has made it clear she will never run the gym for me and I have to respect that.The ridiculous thing is it only took a few months to turn this business around and I have not invested that much.As it stands it will be in profit by February 2017 which as anyone in business will tell you is unbelievable,six months from near bankruptcy to profit.It is obvious that J was wasting the profits by giving them to her mother and letting her toxic friends use the gym free.We have over a thousand extra annual memberships sold during this month alone,people see it as a good Christmas present for their partners.I agree with you about not selling to Ally,she has only ever worked in gyms and never managed.I have heard there are college courses in health studio management and I will get her to check it out.
We had another counselling session today and it went OK,no more surprises.The only touchy subject was J getting back in contact with her family,the counsellor suggested she starts with her youngest sister but I will leave it up to her.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I was very lucky to get this guy to manage my gym and the amount of business he has brought in is extraordinarily,we had to extend opening times and in January we are going 24/7.I may ask him to stay working for me even if it is only a couple of days a week,he can do the paperwork at home.I will offer him a big raise but he has already told me it's not the money.Ally is very keen to buy the gym but I really would like for J to be involved.
This fcukin gym has caused me more trouble in three months than my own business has caused in ten years but in typical Andy fashion it is making a fortune.
offer him a small ownership stake to stay involved in some capacity where what he gets out of it, outside of equity, is based on the money it's bringing in, even if he's not running/managing the gym. He'll make dang sure he gets someone in there with experience that he likes to do so...
 
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