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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

If she were growing up as you say, she would be humble enough to know her family was trying to help her, not trying to hurt her, by taking yous side.

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I really appreciate your advice all through this thread.If you are not a professional counsellor or something similar it is surprising.
When we met last evening my fiancée again brought up Alison.She really can't believe there has never been anything sexual between us.I actually rang Alison and put her on the phone with my F.They chatted for a while and actually had a few laughs as well.Alison lives about eighty miles away but she has said she will drive over on Sunday afternoon for a visit,Sam is a nurse and will be working anyway.
We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.
She asked me to look at some apartments with her on Monday,since the colleges closed for summer there is plenty available.The atmosphere has not improved at her home,she feels betrayed that her mom and sister supported me in this situation.This sort of worries me as she still feels she was (mostly) in the right.
We cut our walk short because it started to rain and brought the boy to McDonald's Then we went back to my house and they both stayed the night.
I'm glad you're alert to this. It is not a good sign. Her family may have, at times, been supportive of the father of her child, and maybe she didn't like it, and that's why he did a runner.

It should also be concerning, I think, that she's beating the "you cheated with Allison" drum.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I'm glad you're alert to this. It is not a good sign. Her family may have, at times, been supportive of the father of her child, and maybe she didn't like it, and that's why he did a runner.

It should also be concerning, I think, that she's beating the "you cheated with Allison" drum.

No doubt that's what's happening. I wonder why it is?

Projection?

Another worry.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I probably should explain about Alison.As I said I met her at a Springsteen concert and got talking with her after the show.It turned out we both had tickets for the following night also so we decided to go together.After the second show we went for a drink and got talking.
She told me straight away that she was gay but had not "came out"to her family who were very religious.We started going to gigs together and sometimes stayed in hostels or cheap bed and breakfasts together.Again I swear nothing ever happened sexually we really were just good friends.It suited Ally to have me with her because guys weren't hitting on her and strangely I never had as many girls hitting on me,it seems when women see a guy with a beautiful woman they figure he must have something to offer and they want it.Im probably wrong about that but that's how it seemed to be.We actually went to London and stayed with my brother when Ally got four tickets for another Springsteen gig and my brother and sil came with us.My Sister in law guessed straight away that Ally was gay,I don't know how and they had some long private talks about Ally "coming out"to her parents.We ended up sharing a house with Sam when she qualified as a nurse and it was probably the most fun time I ever had,they took delight in setting me up with other girls and I think they looked on me as a big brother.When Sam moved to another hospital Ally moved with her and I bought the house which I still live in.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

@Andy1001, WE all get that. We know it is possible to have a great friendship with Ally without any risk for your relationship with your fiancee, but I think some of us are puzzled about the fact that, if it is SO obvious to your SIL and to others around you that Ally is gay and there's nothing more than a great platonic friendship, why doesn't your fiancee believe you? I guess you'll see if she can accept the friendship and settle down about it when Ally comes to spend some time with both of you, but the larger issue is, why your fiancee seems to be so concerned and worried and so willing to assume there's more to the relationship with Ally than you say. You can tell HER this history and it doesn't seem to allay her fears.

It is very common for someone who is insecure or who may be open to other relationships to blame the partner for doing the same (or to accuse the partner of doing/being the same).

So you guys have had two long talks; your fiancee wanted to see your phone - texts, emails, calls - to allay her fears that you were cheating (maybe she thought you hooked up with someone else after you left the bar and left her standing there drooling about her tattoo), and after a couple of talks, the next time you get together, two things happen: she still wants to know about your relationship with Ally because she fears you're cheating or two-timing, and she insists she was right about the bar fracas and the whole tattoo thing.

She's not REALLY responding to you, Andy. That's the point. She's not really hearing that you're in a friendship with Ally, period, and she's not acknowledging that the tattoo episode in the bar demonstrates how she is willing to cross boundaries and break agreements. It's not about the tattoo . . . it's about her doing whatever she wants and expecting to be told she's right to do it!
 

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Discussion Starter #246
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

@Andy1001, WE all get that. We know it is possible to have a great friendship with Ally without any risk for your relationship with your fiancee, but I think some of us are puzzled about the fact that, if it is SO obvious to your SIL and to others around you that Ally is gay and there's nothing more than a great platonic friendship, why doesn't your fiancee believe you? I guess you'll see if she can accept the friendship and settle down about it when Ally comes to spend some time with both of you, but the larger issue is, why your fiancee seems to be so concerned and worried and so willing to assume there's more to the relationship with Ally than you say. You can tell HER this history and it doesn't seem to allay her fears.

It is very common for someone who is insecure or who may be open to other relationships to blame the partner for doing the same (or to accuse the partner of doing/being the same).

So you guys have had two long talks; your fiancee wanted to see your phone - texts, emails, calls - to allay her fears that you were cheating (maybe she thought you hooked up with someone else after you left the bar and left her standing there drooling about her tattoo), and after a couple of talks, the next time you get together, two things happen: she still wants to know about your relationship with Ally because she fears you're cheating or two-timing, and she insists she was right about the bar fracas and the whole tattoo thing.

She's not REALLY responding to you, Andy. That's the point. She's not really hearing that you're in a friendship with Ally, period, and she's not acknowledging that the tattoo episode in the bar demonstrates how she is willing to cross boundaries and break agreements. It's not about the tattoo . . . it's about her doing whatever she wants and expecting to be told she's right to do it!
Thanks for the advice.I should point out that most of the people in the area did not know Ally and Sam were a couple,it was only when they moved to a new city that they lived openly in a gay relationship.Also I'm not sure if it is relevant but Ally and me shared a house for over three years.Ally is here now and also Sam,she switched shifts at the hospital so I can't really say much more for the moment.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

She was sort of betrayed, but this would be a red flag for me. Personally, I'd be on the way out. All your talks are centering around YOUR actions which, are not related to the incident or previous ones. Did you ask her if the family members said the same things to her?

Good luck dude, this sounds more and more like a nightmare. Still, a KISA loves drama.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.
She sounds like a person who is easily influenced or manipulated by others. Not necessarily a character flaw (JMHO) but is the way she is. It would explain a lot. Other posters would know better if that is because of low self esteem (her worry about your relationship with Ally) or something else. Can she change on that? IDK.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I was buying a new car and it was an estate(station wagon) model but she insisted on me getting a sporty model instead.A couple of months later she said I was crazy to buy it.She asked me once did I think a buzz cut would suit her and I said no,she got one anyway and even though I thought it looked great she cried her eyes out and told her friends that I convinced her to get it and like a fool I went along with it.
Yikes! Your "girlfriend" is nuts. She is all over the place.
Even if she was a model 10 beauty, I'd dump her. She's already sucking the life out of you. ugh.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

She sounds like a person who is easily influenced or manipulated by others. Not necessarily a character flaw (JMHO) but is the way she is. It would explain a lot. Other posters would know better if that is because of low self esteem (her worry about your relationship with Ally) or something else. Can she change on that? IDK.
What I see is someone who is easily influenced, not manipulated so much, to accept the perceptions or her friends, and not able to exercise her own discernment of a situation. She maybe overly emotional and feeling and easily led by what others say about a situation, which is unfortunate because the consequences of a situation or her choices don't affect them. That would still also support my sense that she finds structure outside of herself, such as her Mom getting on to her about screwing things up that day in the bar with Andy. Instead of being able to see how her feelings led her to be so silly in the bar about the tattoo risked her relationship with Andy (that is, finding herself in a position where she's not thinking but feeling and reacting to the silliness of her friends) she either has little confidence in her ability to size up a situation and make a decision on her own, or she just hasn't developed the ability to think for herself about the consequences of acting on her feelings. And if her parents have protected her, she may not have experienced much in the way of consequences for acting on her feelings. Her dad offering to pay to remove the tattoo is a case in point.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

We are together five years,if I told you how we met you would not believe it.Until last Sunday I have never called my fiancée out on her behaviour.
Tell us how you meet.... nothing to be ashamed of, and its not like we KNOW who you are. :)

Communication is #1 in a relationship.

I'll post some books I've bought that may help you... not now, but later. I've been very sick and hospitalized recently.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I really appreciate your advice all through this thread.If you are not a professional counsellor or something similar it is surprising.
When we met last evening my fiancée again brought up Alison.She really can't believe there has never been anything sexual between us.I actually rang Alison and put her on the phone with my F.They chatted for a while and actually had a few laughs as well.Alison lives about eighty miles away but she has said she will drive over on Sunday afternoon for a visit,Sam is a nurse and will be working anyway.
We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.
She asked me to look at some apartments with her on Monday,since the colleges closed for summer there is plenty available.The atmosphere has not improved at her home,she feels betrayed that her mom and sister supported me in this situation.This sort of worries me as she still feels she was (mostly) in the right.
We cut our walk short because it started to rain and brought the boy to McDonald's Then we went back to my house and they both stayed the night.
As others have said, she' deflecting blame for her bad behavior onto you. And you're letting her do it. Not good. She's a grown adult and a mother, too. She needs to accept responsibility for her actions AND her behavior.

I have a feeling the atmosphere at home will only improve if she either A) moves out this summer or B) announces the wedding is back on and she'll be leaving in October. Taking a shot in the dark, I'd bet they all thought she'd grow up eventually. It must just be a phase. Maybe she's just a late bloomer in the maturity dept. And years passed with little to no change. Now, they've gotten frustrated with her and want her to get her sh!t straight.

If you're going to stay with her, you've got to make her responsible for her own actions. No excuses. No blame on anything or anyone else.
 

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Discussion Starter #253 (Edited)
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

As others have said, she' deflecting blame for her bad behavior onto you. And you're letting her do it. Not good. She's a grown adult and a mother, too. She needs to accept responsibility for her actions AND her behavior.

I have a feeling the atmosphere at home will only improve if she either A) moves out this summer or B) announces the wedding is back on and she'll be leaving in October. Taking a shot in the dark, I'd bet they all thought she'd grow up eventually. It must just be a phase. Maybe she's just a late bloomer in the maturity dept. And years passed with little to no change. Now, they've gotten frustrated with her and want her to get her sh!t straight.

If you're going to stay with her, you've got to make her responsible for her own actions. No excuses. No blame on anything or anyone else.
We had a long talk yesterday and I will try and get my head around and post it later.One thing did strike me as strange,Sam asked me did I not think it strange thatI have no close male friends,just colleagues and all my closest friends are female.
I never gave it much thought.When I was growing up I had lots of male friends but once I got into my twenties they seem to have drifted away.
Sam is studying to be an addiction counsellor as well as working a full time job so her and Ally's time together is precious and I really appreciate them coming over to see me,but we kind of argued yesterday and I feel bad about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #254
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Tell us how you meet.... nothing to be ashamed of, and its not like we KNOW who you are. :)

Communication is #1 in a relationship.

I'll post some books I've bought that may help you... not now, but later. I've been very sick and hospitalized recently.
It's a long story and you would think I was bull****ting you.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Something very funny happened this afternoon which completely slipped my mind.One of her mouthy friends texted me ~~ What was funny though was this friend said if things don't work out for me and my fiancée to give her a call if I wanted to talk"or something"
She is one of the main **** stirrers and now she wants to come to my house to "talk or something". Honestly if this woman was on fire I wouldn't piss on her to put it out.
See, you have more value than you think. Women (and men) do like a stable partner. Perhaps you should have this "friend" come by and record the conversation (don't let it actually go anywhere) and then playback to your fiancee. Overall, it seems like the whole group is nothing but toxic skanks and drunken party girls. Mind you, I like respectful ****s. Not people who play games with others.

I've just finished page 9. So my response adds to others AT THIS POINT.
1 - WTF?! She's not actually taking care of her son. So neither of YOU TWO know what its like taking care of a child and plans for long term upbringing. Its like you both get to play "parents" a few hours a week (maybe she plays "mom" a few days a week).

2 - Childless couple to Family unit totally changes your "home" dynamics. Childless = going out ANYTIME you or both of you want. Midnight bowling? Road trip over the weekend? Getting drunk til and 2am, coming home and having sex on the front yard. Buying nice clothes, sporty cars, etc. Change that to crying, diapers (when you get her or another woman pregnant), buying clothes for the next 18 years - constantly. My 2y old has far more NEW clothes than me. Your diet changes. Going out to the gym gets harder. Mini vans are functional. School schedule, school functions, etc. You cannot be going out and party when you have kids.

3 - I've seen a bit of stupid reality teen-mama shows and young women in real life that I have meet or know (17~20) who think its COOL and great to have a baby or plan to, and yet they have PARTY on their brains. Its like ARE YOU F-n CRAZY?! You're too immature and stupid to take care of a child! Man they get pissed when the child messes up their "life" of fun.

4 - by ALL means, people with kids - SHOULD go out on dates weekly, if not at least bi-weekly for sanity.

As stated above, she should live by herself with child for 6 months or so, MOM can take care of child During biz. hours. Then, if you stay with her - you MOVE in for 6 months and see if you like her as a REAL world mom and yourself being a real-world father. Note, child will bond with you - so you're taking a chance hurting an innocent one.

As much crap that my wayward wife did to me and our son, she never wanted her family to take care of our son for Her. She's getting her crap together and is being a better mom by the week. Planning our future with our kid and how we're going to raise him - is a gift and worthwhile feeling. She started having *US* to stop cursing around him because he'll repeat it. Sure him saying F-word sounds cute, but its not used properly and not healthy for him. It reflect badly on us as parents. Her doing this, scored points with me.

Yeah I think I just got a little excited at seeing her again,she is seriously hot.I never even thought about the tattoo so she might have already got it for all I know.Thats my problem when I see things from afar I am sensible enough but once she is beside me common sense seems to leave.
Think with your brain, not with your penis. But its understandable... She won't always be HOT.
I think my "wife" is very sexy, she is still about 105lbs at 31yrs old. She's obviously NO longer 22 years old. Sure I'd like to bang hot young tail whenever I want, but I'd like to be with someone I LOVE beyond their looks and younger age. And talking with most 20-something women is... meh. We all get old.

I have another 7 pages to read and catch up on.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Then perhaps she shouldn't drink...
My Wayward has been sober for 4 months. I'm still amazed, shocked, proud and happy of her improvements.

My drinking has gone down too, not so much I have a drinking problem, but as support for her. I have other things to do, than drink at the moment.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

See, you have more value than you think. Women (and men) do like a stable partner. Perhaps you should have this "friend" come by and record the conversation (don't let it actually go anywhere) and then playback to your fiancee. Overall, it seems like the whole group is nothing but toxic skanks and drunken party girls. Mind you, I like respectful ****s. Not people who play games with others.

I've just finished page 9. So my response adds to others AT THIS POINT.
1 - WTF?! She's not actually taking care of her son. So neither of YOU TWO know what its like taking care of a child and plans for long term upbringing. Its like you both get to play "parents" a few hours a week (maybe she plays "mom" a few days a week).

2 - Childless couple to Family unit totally changes your "home" dynamics. Childless = going out ANYTIME you or both of you want. Midnight bowling? Road trip over the weekend? Getting drunk til and 2am, coming home and having sex on the front yard. Buying nice clothes, sporty cars, etc. Change that to crying, diapers (when you get her or another woman pregnant), buying clothes for the next 18 years - constantly. My 2y old has far more NEW clothes than me. Your diet changes. Going out to the gym gets harder. Mini vans are functional. School schedule, school functions, etc. You cannot be going out and party when you have kids.

3 - I've seen a bit of stupid reality teen-mama shows and young women in real life that I have meet or know (17~20) who think its COOL and great to have a baby or plan to, and yet they have PARTY on their brains. Its like ARE YOU F-n CRAZY?! You're too immature and stupid to take care of a child! Man they get pissed when the child messes up their "life" of fun.

4 - by ALL means, people with kids - SHOULD go out on dates weekly, if not at least bi-weekly for sanity.

As stated above, she should live by herself with child for 6 months or so, MOM can take care of child During biz. hours. Then, if you stay with her - you MOVE in for 6 months and see if you like her as a REAL world mom and yourself being a real-world father. Note, child will bond with you - so you're taking a chance hurting an innocent one.

As much crap that my wayward wife did to me and our son, she never wanted her family to take care of our son for Her. She's getting her crap together and is being a better mom by the week. Planning our future with our kid and how we're going to raise him - is a gift and worthwhile feeling. She started having *US* to stop cursing around him because he'll repeat it. Sure him saying F-word sounds cute, but its not used properly and not healthy for him. It reflect badly on us as parents. Her doing this, scored points with me.


Think with your brain, not with your penis. But its understandable... She won't always be HOT.
I think my "wife" is very sexy, she is still about 105lbs at 31yrs old. She's obviously NO longer 22 years old. Sure I'd like to bang hot young tail whenever I want, but I'd like to be with someone I LOVE beyond their looks and younger age. And talking with most 20-something women is... meh. We all get old.

I have another 7 pages to read and catch up on.
Thanks for taking the time to read about my problems.It seems that you have been through the wringer yourself and I hope you come out of it ok.
If you still want to know about how I met my fiancé and why she is insecure about it I will post it,but it is a long story and even I sometimes can't believe it.
Once again thank you for taking an interest in my problems and the very best of luck to you.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

It's a long story and you would think I was bull****ting you.
Nope. Why would we think you were bSing me? A 5 min read isn't long.

How I meet my wife:
I was in my favorite club for about a minute, I ordered a drink from my bartender, turned around with there was a tug at my arm. She looked at me cute, and I said "hi" and bought her a drink. We danced that night and were having sex 3-4 hours later after "hi". Married about 3 months after we meet.

She had been shy and knew of me for months, but saw me with other women all the time and in social circles she wasn't apart of. We're still growing together and learning about each other. :)

I won't get into the kinky details. :)
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Finally caught up.

People who WANT to change, can change some aspects of themselves. You CAN adjust behavior, but you cannot fix someone's personality. After reading everything, somethings sound BETTER (like her moving out) and somethings bad. Glad you didn't go over your list, your relationship with her would likely be dead by now. Seriously, you don't take kids out of school. First of all, BOTH of your need to seek couples counseling / therapy or whatever you call it - if YOU both want to have a future together. I'm in my mid 40s, wife is 31. We are both working on ourselves and each other. Its been painful and we were on a course for failure. We both have desires to be better people, its going to take a year at least to know how successful we are. Our child is a factor for our desire to work together. We both have flaws we couldn't see before. I love her, and she seems to show that she really loves me. If things work out, the three of us win.

#2: A lot of good advice by people who know more than me, here. You'll know more than anyone else here, what may work for you and your relationship. What you have now, seems like a toxic mess. What her friends are doing, is typical. They are stupid and controlling, they are concerned with THEIR needs, not your fiancee or yours. You are an enemy to some of them (Tat friend) so you are a threat. As your Sis In Law says, YOU DON'T understand women (Most of us guys will never reach master status in that world) - I too was/am like that, especially when younger when I was oblivious of women and young women trying to get my attention while ALSO, some women thinking I am interested in them, when I don't.

#3: Real long term relationships require work, dedication, communication, respect, trust, etc. Her thinking you have been cheating on her for a LONG time - is a problem. Either she has cheated on you or she is very insecure. My wife was very insecure with me and played a part in her cheating on me. Insecure women are likely to cheat, they are targeted by wolves out there. The Gym is a hotbed for cheating, as stated.

#4: Toxic friends and/or family are deadly. Tat friend and the others hitting on you ARE enemies of your relationship. If her friend "B" is telling your fiancee about you CHEATING, yet is hitting on you - there is you answer as to why. They are not HER friends, they are leaches.

#5: books I recommend you reading: “Love Triangles ~ seven steps to break the secrets ties that poison love” by Dr. Bonnie Jacobson (this is a Karpman drama triangle book and how it effects your life) and “Not Just Friends” by Shirley Glass.* And check out a book or two from the library on co-dependency (both of you seem to are issues in this area). * Not Just friends, not saying either of YOU cheated. But its a great book for helping to protect your current or future relationships. Dr. Shirley Glass - About the Book - NOT "Just Friends"

You both can benefit from personal (individual) therapy as well.

PS: Her child should be in day-care, with her parents or sisters "babysitting" 1-3 times a month when you both go out on date-night. If the Gym is her biz, maybe she could put in a small "child center" which allows her and her clients to bring in kids during their work-outs. Most gyms in the USA have this, and I make use of it with my toddler.
 

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Discussion Starter #260
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

@Andy1001, WE all get that. We know it is possible to have a great friendship with Ally without any risk for your relationship with your fiancee, but I think some of us are puzzled about the fact that, if it is SO obvious to your SIL and to others around you that Ally is gay and there's nothing more than a great platonic friendship, why doesn't your fiancee believe you? I guess you'll see if she can accept the friendship and settle down about it when Ally comes to spend some time with both of you, but the larger issue is, why your fiancee seems to be so concerned and worried and so willing to assume there's more to the relationship with Ally than you say. You can tell HER this history and it doesn't seem to allay her fears.

It is very common for someone who is insecure or who may be open to other relationships to blame the partner for doing the same (or to accuse the partner of doing/being the same).

So you guys have had two long talks; your fiancee wanted to see your phone - texts, emails, calls - to allay her fears that you were cheating (maybe she thought you hooked up with someone else after you left the bar and left her standing there drooling about her tattoo), and after a couple of talks, the next time you get together, two things happen: she still wants to know about your relationship with Ally because she fears you're cheating or two-timing, and she insists she was right about the bar fracas and the whole tattoo thing.

She's not REALLY responding to you, Andy. That's the point. She's not really hearing that you're in a friendship with Ally, period, and she's not acknowledging that the tattoo episode in the bar demonstrates how she is willing to cross boundaries and break agreements. It's not about the tattoo . . . it's about her doing whatever she wants and expecting to be told she's right to do it!
I texted my sil and asked her how she knew Ally was gay so quickly.She said that the first night we got there it was very late and we went straight to bed.There were two beds in the room we were sharing and sil said the following morning it was obvious that both beds had been slept in.Also I had told her and my brother that we were just friends and they hadn't really believed me until the first morning.
And there was me thinking it was woman's intuition or something.
 
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