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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

As much as I'd like to say that this can be worked out, it can't.

First, your girlfriend is 32. She's not going to change. Her behavior pattern was set a long time ago.

She runs her own company, which means she's used to getting her own way.

The behavior is so prevalent with her that her parents are desperate to have her get married to the point that her father would pay for tattoo removal and her mother slapped her at the prospect of losing you.

This woman will not change. You may win on the tattoo, but you have taught her before that you will bend your boundaries. You may win on the tattoo but will lose in the future.
 

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Discussion Starter #182 (Edited)
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I am meeting her at eight tonight,just to talk and I have decided to approach our relationship like this
1.She makes arrangements to move into a rented apt or house immediately.
2.I have forwarded to her the texts from her friends to me.I got another offer of a shoulder to cry on today from one of her employees.This girl is under the impression that I own a stake in my fiancées business but I don't.
3.We start to include her son in as many activities as possible.
4.She cuts back on the hours she works and is a full time mother eg cooking his meals,bringing him to whatever summer activities he wants seeing as school is over for the time being.
5.We take a break together with the boy in October when we would have been on honeymoon.He will have to be removed from school for this but he will still be only seven years old so it should be ok.
7.She refuses to allow her friends to come to her home when I am there,also no free visits to her studio.
I am also telling her to make her own list of conditions as I see I have been playing the victim here.
 

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Discussion Starter #184
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

@Andy1001:

There is not anything I can say about your fiance that has not already been said by other posters. Immature, prideful, defiant, and untrustworthy all come to mind. @NoChoice also had a great point in asking you which head you were using to think. She has shown you who she is, so it is time to believe her. However, that point has been hammered home multiple times. Mine echoing that will be a drop in a sea of voices.

I will say this: Her exceptional beauty, plus her need for external validation, combined with her unwillingness to accept responsibility for her choices, as well as her need to blame you, is the surest recipe for a cheating spouse as you will find anywhere. Proceed at your own peril

Here is where I want to hone in on you. Yes, you.



Shut up? Really? Do you see you are already falling into the trap of treating her like a subordinate, or someone less than you? I totally get where you are coming from, but there is NO ROOM for treating a significant other as such.



Why were you shouting? When you show emotion that way, it is the opposite of trust. Additionally, your point is often lost (luckily not in this case) in the delivery. This, combined with the fact that you are choosing a bride with the wrong head, tells me she is not the only one who needs to grow up some. The only thing that makes me thing you two don't deserve each other is the fact that you are starting to take her off of her pedestal.



Andy, I want you to Google the Karpman Drama Triangle. After reading it, come back here and tell us what consistencies you see between your relationship and Karpman's model.
I Han never heard of this before but it is very interesting.I see I have been portraying myself as the victim and then the aggressor.It will take me a while to understand this fully.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

She probably has only one condition. You stop trying to control her life.

Your intentions might be good, and your concern for the boy commendable, but if you express your conditions using the wording above that discussion with end in a fight. Unless you want it to.

1. Strike out the word immediately and replace with as soon as practical.
2. How about YOU stop texting and chatting with her friends. That should be no-brainer boundaries.
3. Why do that unless you want to use the kid as leverage to domestic her more? That is using the kid as a pawn, or tool to get your way. (I hope I am just reading that wrong). Do you really want the kid to bond more with you only for you to end it later?
4. IMO she will take that to be controlling. If that is your version of a wife, you might be better just to move on now.
5. What is your purpose there? A pseudo-honeymoon? Why interfere with the kid's schooling? How does the child benefit from this trip? Or is he invited to serve your purposes.
7. Just wow.

Ok, I get that she is wild and maybe not the type of person you want as a wife right now. But you seem to be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole. Why are trying to make her into something she is not. She just is not right for you. Some other guy, maybe, but not you. Why are you not seeking a woman that fits your criteria now.

The only reason I can imagine for you wanting this woman is that she is really hot and sex is great.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I Han never heard of this before but it is very interesting.I see I have been portraying myself as the victim and then the aggressor.It will take me a while to understand this fully.
The victim is static in the karpman triangle

Giggity Giggity
 

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Discussion Starter #187
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

She probably has only one condition. You stop trying to control her life.

Your intentions might be good, and your concern for the boy commendable, but if you express your conditions using the wording above that discussion with end in a fight. Unless you want it to.

1. Strike out the word immediately and replace with as soon as practical.
2. How about YOU stop texting and chatting with her friends. That should be no-brainer boundaries.
3. Why do that unless you want to use the kid as leverage to domestic her more? That is using the kid as a pawn, or tool to get your way. (I hope I am just reading that wrong). Do you really want the kid to bond more with you only for you to end it later?
4. IMO she will take that to be controlling. If that is your version of a wife, you might be better just to move on now.
5. What is your purpose there? A pseudo-honeymoon? Why interfere with the kid's schooling? How does the child benefit from this trip? Or is he invited to serve your purposes.
7. Just wow.

Ok, I get that she is wild and maybe not the type of person you want as a wife right now. But you seem to be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole. Why are trying to make her into something she is not. She just is not right for you. Some other guy, maybe, but not you. Why are you not seeking a woman that fits your criteria now.

The only reason I can imagine for you wanting this woman is that she is really hot and sex is great.
I have never texted her friends.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

The victim is static in the karpman triangle

Giggity Giggity
No. The most common transition is from victim to aggressor.

Think DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I haven't spoken to my fiancée today yet but I have been ringing my relatives to tell them the wedding is off.My elder brother called me a stupid #%#%# and hung up!
However he rung back when he cooled down and we had a long talk.He is my only sibling and is sixteen years older than me.He had left home when I was still a baby,got married at eighteen and is still thinks his wife is the hottest girl on the planet.We were never really close but when I was younger I was working in the UK and stayed with him and his family for three months.His son is less than three years younger than me.He said exactly what some of the people on this platform said that my fiancée (he has never met her)was only a mother in name and neither of us have a clue what married life would be like.He wasn't as polite as that but you get the gist of it.
He did make a suggestion though and I would like some other people's opinion before putting it to my fiancée.He said for us to take two weeks holiday with the boy and just act like a normal family,go to parks or shows but no babysitters and no drinking.He then suggested not living together but have a room for the boy in my house so that if fiancée stayed over he would come as well and slowly we would figure out if we should be together.
What an amazingly stupid idea.
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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I have never texted her friends.
You must be very attractive and have a high sex appeal score for these women to 1) get your number, 2) pass it around the office and 3) offer their shoulders to cry on.

My point is that your conditions look like a business contract. A poor one at that because it will evoke a negative emotional response from the other party. If those are your conditions, fine, but try to soften the language and put each one in context and give reason behind it that benefits both of you.

How you deliver these will be key to getting what you both need and want.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

What is so stupid about it.
I can't believe I have to explain this.

You want to use a "family" vacation as a litmus test for determining whether or not you should continue in a relationship w/ this woman...?

That's abso-f*cking-lutely ludicrous.

Newsflash: people aren't who they usually are when they're on vacation. They aren't working, paying bills, running errands, or dealing w/ the everyday stressors of day-to-day life... they're on vacation.

Come on.

And about the kid? Think about it... you've already cancelled/postponed the wedding, and before too long you may be cancelling the engagement as well. Do you really want to further cloud your judgement by creating additional opportunities to bond w/ a boy whose mother you may no longer be involved with a month (or less) from now? Should that (a breakup) come to pass, that won't have been fair to any of you -- especially him.

Relationships need to be able to stand or fail on their own merit. You need to be able to determine whether or not this woman will be a suitable partner for you in the long term free of the fact that she happens to be the mother of the small child of whom you've doubtlessly become quite fond. Simultaneously, she needs to show you that she CAN be a mother free of all the help she's apparently getting from her family while living under her parents' roof. Otherwise, who do you think will be handling the bulk of any parenting duties once they're living w/ you?

It'll be you.

And then you really will be raising another man's child --

Alone.
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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

What do you love about her that you wanted to marry her? Leave out that she is attractive and good sex partner.
 

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Discussion Starter #195
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

You must be very attractive and have a high sex appeal score for these women to 1) get your number, 2) pass it around the office and 3) offer their shoulders to cry on.

My point is that your conditions look like a business contract. A poor one at that because it will evoke a negative emotional response from the other party. If those are your conditions, fine, but try to soften the language and put each one in context and give reason behind it that benefits both of you.

How you deliver these will be key to getting what you both need and want.
These are the problems I'm trying to sort out.Some of the recent comments have suggested that all I am concerned with is sex with my fiancée but that is not true.Yeah I would be considered very handsome but from my first date with my fiancée I have never touched another woman let alone slept with one.I am not looking for a pat on the back here it was just the way I was raised.
My parents were married over forty years and my Brother has been married thirty and counting.
Until last week I thought we were doing fine butI see it was destined to fail.I have so many confusing thoughts going through my head right now that I don't know what to do and my fiancée will be here shortly.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

You need more time to get your head straight. You shouldn't be jumping at every chance to spent time around her right now.

Bottom line -- you need to stop feeling your way through this and start thinking your way through it.

Hot and sexy doesn't necessarily make for the best partner in the long term.

Especially when it's all tatted up w/ a buzz cut.
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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

I am meeting her at eight tonight,just to talk and I have decided to approach our relationship like this
1.She makes arrangements to move into a rented apt or house immediately.
2.I have forwarded to her the texts from her friends to me.I got another offer of a shoulder to cry on today from one of her employees.This girl is under the impression that I own a stake in my fiancées business but I don't.
3.We start to include her son in as many activities as possible.
4.She cuts back on the hours she works and is a full time mother eg cooking his meals,bringing him to whatever summer activities he wants seeing as school is over for the time being.
5.We take a break together with the boy in October when we would have been on honeymoon.He will have to be removed from school for this but he will still be only seven years old so it should be ok.
7.She refuses to allow her friends to come to her home when I am there,also no free visits to her studio.
I am also telling her to make her own list of conditions as I see I have been playing the victim here.
Just listen to yourself....I see where this is heading. My friend... lists do not work and are tossed the second you get married. Not a quick death but a slow deliberate death.

Ignore the red flags at your peril.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

5.We take a break together with the boy in October when we would have been on honeymoon.He will have to be removed from school for this but he will still be only seven years old so it should be ok.
Andy, 5 shows you still have a bit of a way to go before you really get the whole kid thing.

Because the child is in school, you can't simply go on vacation in October. As a parent, your schedule is dictated by the local school schedule.

First, most schools have rules about number of days the child is allowed to miss for the year. Where I live, that number is 12. If the child misses more than 12 days, that child does not advance to the next grade level. A two week vacation would be 10 days missed. Now, add in a few missed days because the kid gets sick or has an accident and is injured, etc., you can see how easy it would be to go over days.

Second, academics. Two weeks at the beginning of the school year is too long to be out of class all in one stretch. Usually, the first few weeks of the school year are used to go over what they learned previously, get all the kids in class on the same page, and then the next few weeks they begin to move forward.

It's easy to fall behind and the kid would still have to make up his classwork and homework. Having to catch up on 2 weeks worth of assignments is not fun. Neither is taking the homework with you and doing it on vacation.

October, being at the beginning of the academic year, is a terrible time to pull a kid from class for anything other than necessity.

If you want to do a family vacation after she's moved and lived on her own a bit, do it around the Christmas holidays when school isn't in session.

Having a kid that you take care of means not being able to get up and go when you want to.
 

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Re: Fiancées tattoo.

In addition, if she starts staying over, it will be harder to break up.
Or easier.

I highly suspect Andy's older brother made the suggestions he made because he's banking on the togetherness experiment leading to a permanent break up.

Honestly, if they do stop the drinking and start taking care of the boy full time like parents, I think Andy's perception of his intended will undergo a shift and he'll probably walk.

Worst case scenario, I'm wrong and Andy's fiancee really steps up, they get married, and are happy. That is a wrong I can live with! :)

We really do hope for the best for you, her, and the boy, Andy.


Just an aside, she's 32? I must have missed it or spaced it. From the descriptions of her behavior, I was thinking she was in her early-mid 20's, lived at home while building a small business, and was just a fledgling. At 32, her behavior becomes much more concerning considering the level of maturity expected at that age.
 

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Discussion Starter #200 (Edited)
Re: Fiancées tattoo.

Andy, 5 shows you still have a bit of a way to go before you really get the whole kid thing.

Because the child is in school, you can't simply go on vacation in October. As a parent, your schedule is dictated by the local school schedule.

First, most schools have rules about number of days the child is allowed to miss for the year. Where I live, that number is 12. If the child misses more than 12 days, that child does not advance to the next grade level. A two week vacation would be 10 days missed. Now, add in a few missed days because the kid gets sick or has an accident and is injured, etc., you can see how easy it would be to go over days.

Second, academics. Two weeks at the beginning of the school year is too long to be out of class all in one stretch. Usually, the first few weeks of the school year are used to go over what they learned previously, get all the kids in class on the same page, and then the next few weeks they begin to move forward.

It's easy to fall behind and the kid would still have to make up his classwork and homework. Having to catch up on 2 weeks worth of assignments is not fun. Neither is taking the homework with you and doing it on vacation.

October, being at the beginning of the academic year, is a terrible time to pull a kid from class for anything other than necessity.

If you want to do a family vacation after she's moved and lived on her own a bit, do it around the Christmas holidays when school isn't in session.

Having a kid that you take care of means not being able to get up and go when you want to.
At the end of October we have what's called half term,it is one full week off and also the Monday of the following week.So the kid will be missing four days total.He is in a private school.
 
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