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In fact, that difference of outlook between the two spouses is the very essence of discernment counseling. If you go back to that website, and look at the series of three videos ("join the free training") you can view its focus even more clearly.



When she came out of the hospital, she was seeing a psychiatrist because there was medication being prescribed to deal with the psychosis. I would not try to rank psychiatrists against psychologists--each have their areas of expertise--but I agree that something should be done. I have tried, but have not yet been successful in getting to see one (other than for the alcoholism part).
A psychologist lets people talk to them. A psychiatrist can do this. BUT! They can prescribe medication which a psychologist cannot do. They can also arrange impatient care if required.
 

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Have you spoken to your priest about this?
I'm not from a Catholic background, but from the Christian tradition I come from, there is a concept of God doing you a favor..... if your wife wants to leave, and does leave, she is taking the path of an unbeliever, and Paul the Apostle wrote to the Corinthians that a believer is "not under bondage in such cases" (see I Corinthians 7:15).

In Christ, we are now adults who can discern and live according to the Spirit of the law, affording each other the divine protection and trust of marriage..... we are no longer children, who must simply obey legalistically.....and, can recognize that some marital obstacles cannot be overcome and lived through. Your wife choosing to leave and leaving would be one of them. You cannot change your wife.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Mental illness, diagnosed before or after a marriage, can be a strong ground for nullity.
It can be a ground if existing prior to marriage, but not afterwards. The theory of nullity is that a valid marriage never existed. Here, a valid marriage did come into existence, and the fact that something may have come into being afterwards cannot effect what had already happened. BTW, I am a member of the bar, I have studied canon law, and I have also consulted with a canonist on this. The point as to when an infirmity to a marriage comes into being is well-settled law.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
I Corinthians 7:15
You're referring to the Pauline privilege, which applies to persons not baptized, see c. 1143 § 1, which is not the case here. The applicable law here is: "A marriage that is ratum et consummatum can be dissolved by no human power and by no cause, except death." See c. 1141.
 

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I understand. I come from a different church and traditions than you. You and I have in common, the comfort given by the Apostle 14 verses later in the same letter to Corinth. The time is short. Both you and I, who have wives will be as those who have none. Seek solace in this Divine promise.


May God give you courage and strength to obey His will as you understand it, and the "peace which passeth all understanding" to love your wife as she is while seeking help and improvement.
 

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It can be a ground if existing prior to marriage, but not afterwards. The theory of nullity is that a valid marriage never existed. Here, a valid marriage did come into existence, and the fact that something may have come into being afterwards cannot effect what had already happened. BTW, I am a member of the bar, I have studied canon law, and I have also consulted with a canonist on this. The point as to when an infirmity to a marriage comes into being is well-settled law.
Which is why I used the phrasing I did. If the mental illness existed before the marriage and went undiagnosed until years later or if the mental illness was present and improperly treated, a good argument could be made that consent was invalid or that your wife lacked the ability to fully understand and/or meet the duties and obligations of marriage or even that her illness prevents her from being able to form a proper marital bond with you or anyone.

So, the question is how long has your wife been mentally ill? Is this something that was present before your marriage that went unnoticed because the symptoms weren't as severe yet? Was she, perhaps, being treated and given medications that weren't effective or that impaired her thinking and judgment?

At the end of the day, it's really about what you believe and how you want to proceed. I'm just saying that I believe her mental illness was likely present before the marriage and could very well have impacted her ability to consent, to meet the duties and obligations of marriage, or to form a true marital bond. The only way for either of us to know would be for you to take it to the local Tribunal and get a determination, which you cant't even do until you've been divorced, which you would prefer to avoid.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
If the mental illness existed before the marriage and went undiagnosed until years later or if the mental illness was present and improperly treated, a good argument could be made that consent was invalid or that your wife lacked the ability to fully understand and/or meet the duties and obligations of marriage or even that her illness prevents her from being able to form a proper marital bond with you or anyone.
Prior to marriage there were not signs, and we did, in fact, have deep conversations about the meaning of marriage and its indissolubility. I find it very difficult to believe that someone with a latent mental illness could both actively participate in such talks and yet not understand what they were responding to so well and coherently.

At the end of the day, it's really about what you believe and how you want to proceed. I'm just saying that I believe her mental illness was likely present before the marriage and could very well have impacted her ability to consent, to meet the duties and obligations of marriage, or to form a true marital bond.
I believe she had the capacity to consent, and her actions are consistent with that belief. I could not, in good conscience, petition the tribunal on this ground.

The only way for either of us to know would be for you to take it to the local Tribunal and get a determination, which you can't even do until you've been divorced, which you would prefer to avoid.
A determination of an ecclesiastical tribunal is an opinion of men, and is not infallible. Indeed, of the findings of nullity here in the United States, some 90 percent are overturned upon appeal to the Roman Rota. That raises some questions as to the reliability of our domestic legal system as being able to determine the validity of a sacramental marriage. As to the civil status, I don't care. A civil marriage is meaningless; only a sacramental marriage counts. (Indeed, with the manner in which the civil authorities have been meddling with the fundamental characteristics of marriage, what counts as a sivil marriage today cannot be counted on as being a real marriage.)
 

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Has she been on psych medication?

Is it possible she went off of them cold turkey? That would likely send any person into a tailspin mentally.

Check to be sure.

Also, don’t rule out other drugs she may be taking -along with the alcohol that could be detrimental.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Has she been on psych medication?
Previously, risperidone, under psychiatric care. Both the drug and the medical care have since been discontinued.

Also, don’t rule out other drugs she may be taking -along with the alcohol that could be detrimental.
I am quite positive that no illicit drugs are involved. Most of the time she is fine, mentally. But there are periodic, though infrequent, sudden outbursts that make no sense, and then she gets really angry and screams. My thoughts are that there are residual effects of the psychosis remaining that rear their heads every now and then, when something in the environment strikes. Additionally, I think there are people surrounding her who are feeding her information contrary to what she hears from me (including, inter alia, political thoughts from others with different views, and romantic overtures from others seeking to get into her pants), and that conflict between what she has heard from her husband and what she hears from those others might be setting her off.
 

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Previously, risperidone, under psychiatric care. Both the drug and the medical care have since been discontinued.

I am quite positive that no illicit drugs are involved. Most of the time she is fine, mentally. But there are periodic, though infrequent, sudden outbursts that make no sense, and then she gets really angry and screams. My thoughts are that there are residual effects of the psychosis remaining that rear their heads every now and then, when something in the environment strikes. Additionally, I think there are people surrounding her who are feeding her information contrary to what she hears from me (including, inter alia, political thoughts from others with different views, and romantic overtures from others seeking to get into her pants), and that conflict between what she has heard from her husband and what she hears from those others might be setting her off.
This post shows that you have no understanding about mental illness. No offense. It also shows that you have ZERO idea what her condition was when you married her, I mean none.

Mental issues at this level, almost never "appear", nor are they "residual" psychosis that just remain.

They are signs of mental illness, of whatever kind, bi-polar, chronic depression, PTSD, and a host of others that require risperidone are not usually something that "goes away".

While I cannot diagnose what she is dealing with, I feel confident that whatever "it" was... was not treated properly nor do I think she should have discontinued the meds. Also, I general, "risperidone" is almost never prescribed and taken by itself. It is usually prescribed as part of a "cocktail" of several drugs, to help whatever condition the patient is dealing with.

All I am saying is that whatever mental illness she is dealing with has been with her for a while and it was probably not treated effectively in the first place...

Just food for thought...
 

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Discussion Starter #32
This post shows that you have no understanding about mental illness. No offense.
No offense taken; I would never want to go the medical school!

I do know that prior to the psychotic break that there were no obvious signs of anything. When it hit it came as a complete surprise. One night she walked in the door in a complete daze. She had no idea where she was, like nothing I had ever seen before. Whether it was there before, where it remains there now, I cannot say.

While I cannot diagnose what she is dealing with, I feel confident that whatever "it" was... was not treated properly nor do I think she should have discontinued the meds. Also, I general, "risperidone" is almost never prescribed and taken by itself. It is usually prescribed as part of a "cocktail" of several drugs, to help whatever condition the patient is dealing with.
I don't know the medicine here, so I will expand a little bit. When in the emergency room, to the best of my recollection, the attending emergency psychiatrist gave risperidone alone. Later on, something else, I think something to calm her down, and alleviate anger or aggression, was given, but I cannot remember exactly what it was. After eleven days in the hospital, she was provided with a referral to a social worker. I went with her to the appointment, and the physical facilities were a dump. I was also concerned that, with medication having been prescribed, that she should be seeing a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. After that one meeting I located a local psychiatrist who was able to monitor her medication. He gradually reduced the risperidone dosage. After she stopped seeing him, and I was worried about her well-being, I went to see the psychiatrist. While he believed that she was doing O.K. at the time she stopped seeing him, he did agree that it might be good for her to come in again, if only for a "check-up." I tried to get her back, but she refused, insisting that nothing was wrong with her. More recently, she has taken the position that I am the one who is mentally ill and in need of psychotherapy. Her reasoning for my mental illness anyone with my type of political thought (which is mainstream conservatism) is, per se, mentally ill. Since my wife is not, generally, politically active, I think this line of reasoning is being fed to her by someone who wants our marriage to fail, and who may have different political thought than I have. If so, it would be cruel to use someone who is vulnerable to do so. (Yes, I am wary that I might be a bit paranoid for having this thought, but I was assured by a colleague I am not.)
 

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No offense taken; I would never want to go the medical school!

I do know that prior to the psychotic break that there were no obvious signs of anything. When it hit it came as a complete surprise. One night she walked in the door in a complete daze. She had no idea where she was, like nothing I had ever seen before. Whether it was there before, where it remains there now, I cannot say.



I don't know the medicine here, so I will expand a little bit. When in the emergency room, to the best of my recollection, the attending emergency psychiatrist gave risperidone alone. Later on, something else, I think something to calm her down, and alleviate anger or aggression, was given, but I cannot remember exactly what it was. After eleven days in the hospital, she was provided with a referral to a social worker. I went with her to the appointment, and the physical facilities were a dump. I was also concerned that, with medication having been prescribed, that she should be seeing a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. After that one meeting I located a local psychiatrist who was able to monitor her medication. He gradually reduced the risperidone dosage. After she stopped seeing him, and I was worried about her well-being, I went to see the psychiatrist. While he believed that she was doing O.K. at the time she stopped seeing him, he did agree that it might be good for her to come in again, if only for a "check-up." I tried to get her back, but she refused, insisting that nothing was wrong with her. More recently, she has taken the position that I am the one who is mentally ill and in need of psychotherapy. Her reasoning for my mental illness anyone with my type of political thought (which is mainstream conservatism) is, per se, mentally ill. Since my wife is not, generally, politically active, I think this line of reasoning is being fed to her by someone who wants our marriage to fail, and who may have different political thought than I have. If so, it would be cruel to use someone who is vulnerable to do so. (Yes, I am wary that I might be a bit paranoid for having this thought, but I was assured by a colleague I am not.)
A lover might be feeding her this nonsense.
 

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It has been almost eight years now since she was hospitalized, and has not had any acute breaks since then. What I see seems to be "disorganized thought," a characteristic that I understand is more associated with schizophrenia than with psychosis (but not being a medical professional I would not venture too far with speculation). I think the problem may be exacerbated because is literally surrounded by people (including clients) with radical political beliefs that are diametrically opposite of my more traditional views, and she may be getting confused over the differences (I remember several months ago she woke me in the middle of the night, all upset with the newly-installed president having fired many of the politically-appointed ambassadors who were carried over from the prior administration, and never before having had any interest at all in this subject matter). She's functional, so there's no need for hospitalization, but in my view she is periodically getting confused and disturbed. I fear that there may be others who may only be looking to get into her pants, and may be feeding the confusion. Family is giving the un-helpful refrain of supporting whatever she feels is right ("I will support whatever you decide.").
If the bolded is the case, and you guys are both devout Catholics, how would God see her actions? My advice to you would be to talk to your Priest about your issues, and I would get help for your wife.
 

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No offense taken; I would never want to go the medical school!

I do know that prior to the psychotic break that there were no obvious signs of anything. When it hit it came as a complete surprise. One night she walked in the door in a complete daze. She had no idea where she was, like nothing I had ever seen before. Whether it was there before, where it remains there now, I cannot say.

I don't know the medicine here, so I will expand a little bit. When in the emergency room, to the best of my recollection, the attending emergency psychiatrist gave risperidone alone. Later on, something else, I think something to calm her down, and alleviate anger or aggression, was given, but I cannot remember exactly what it was. After eleven days in the hospital, she was provided with a referral to a social worker. I went with her to the appointment, and the physical facilities were a dump. I was also concerned that, with medication having been prescribed, that she should be seeing a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. After that one meeting I located a local psychiatrist who was able to monitor her medication. He gradually reduced the risperidone dosage. After she stopped seeing him, and I was worried about her well-being, I went to see the psychiatrist. While he believed that she was doing O.K. at the time she stopped seeing him, he did agree that it might be good for her to come in again, if only for a "check-up." I tried to get her back, but she refused, insisting that nothing was wrong with her. More recently, she has taken the position that I am the one who is mentally ill and in need of psychotherapy. Her reasoning for my mental illness anyone with my type of political thought (which is mainstream conservatism) is, per se, mentally ill. Since my wife is not, generally, politically active, I think this line of reasoning is being fed to her by someone who wants our marriage to fail, and who may have different political thought than I have. If so, it would be cruel to use someone who is vulnerable to do so. (Yes, I am wary that I might be a bit paranoid for having this thought, but I was assured by a colleague I am not.)
What I am trying to say, while it may be hard to understand, I want you to open your mind.

I have LOTS of experience in your shoes. The first thing is this. When I say that you really don't know what she was dealing with before, I mean it.

You may THINK you saw no signs... you really do not know. You don't know what to LOOK for until you understand, as much as a lay person can, what you SHOULD be looking for.

My Ex was basically bat **** crazy, but until I started to really learn about mental illness, I could not see the signs. After the fact, I can see all of them, every last one.

So what I am saying is you don't know what don't know. So don't tell yourself that you KNOW she did not have issues before you were married, because you don't. You may not have known what to look for.

Also, the bottom line is this: If she leaves she leaves. If she will not try and get help you cannot force her unless she is a danger to herself or others.

In short, you cannot help people that refuse help and you cannot fix them...
 

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Previously, risperidone, under psychiatric care. Both the drug and the medical care have since been discontinued.

I am quite positive that no illicit drugs are involved. Most of the time she is fine, mentally. But there are periodic, though infrequent, sudden outbursts that make no sense, and then she gets really angry and screams. My thoughts are that there are residual effects of the psychosis remaining that rear their heads every now and then, when something in the environment strikes. Additionally, I think there are people surrounding her who are feeding her information contrary to what she hears from me (including, inter alia, political thoughts from others with different views, and romantic overtures from others seeking to get into her pants), and that conflict between what she has heard from her husband and what she hears from those others might be setting her off.
This post shows that you have no understanding about mental illness. No offense. It also shows that you have ZERO idea what her condition was when you married her, I mean none.

Mental issues at this level, almost never "appear", nor are they "residual" psychosis that just remain.

They are signs of mental illness, of whatever kind, bi-polar, chronic depression, PTSD, and a host of others that require risperidone are not usually something that "goes away".

While I cannot diagnose what she is dealing with, I feel confident that whatever "it" was... was not treated properly nor do I think she should have discontinued the meds. Also, I general, "risperidone" is almost never prescribed and taken by itself. It is usually prescribed as part of a "cocktail" of several drugs, to help whatever condition the patient is dealing with.

All I am saying is that whatever mental illness she is dealing with has been with her for a while and it was probably not treated effectively in the first place...

Just food for thought...
Speaking of having no understanding of mental illness -symptoms may not be present until an individual is in their 30s or 40s. They may display zero symptoms and the disease may come on very suddenly.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
If the bolded is the case, and you guys are both devout Catholics, how would God see her actions? My advice to you would be to talk to your Priest about your issues, and I would get help for your wife.
My wife has dealt with it by declaring that she is no longer Catholic. I've been to a priest multiple times. As noted in a later post, you cannot always help those in need if they refuse the help.
 

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Speaking of having no understanding of mental illness -symptoms may not be present until an individual is in their 30s or 40s. They may display zero symptoms and the disease may come on very suddenly.
It is possible, but for me, the signs were there (in this one persons), I just did not see them until it got much worse.

For example, bi-polar can manifest as a teenager or later 20's, but it has been know to be diagnosed much later when the first actual manic episode happened. But if you looked, you usually saw some evidence of depression and also anxiety as well, but no one 'knew' or 'diagnosed' bi-polar until they had firm evidence of the first manic episode.

So the question is were they always bi-polar or did it just happen, or did it just manifest...

I don't think that some of the docs know the answers either, and they just kind of treat what they see at the moment.
 

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Just a heads up...Here in my state if your spouse is diagnosed with a mental illness they cannot sign divorce papers.
 
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