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Discussion Starter #1
Didn't want to thread jack another thread, but the book (I think this is the title, please correct me) A Married Man's Sex Life was mentioned.

Often on betrayed husband threads, there are discussions about whether or not the guy was Too Nice, or did he fail by not being alpha enough, or not achieving the proper alpha / beta ratio in his marriage -- which then leads to its demise and the woman is attracted to someone else.

I'm not a guy, and I haven't read the book (but I will), but I have to say I find the premise totally off putting.

IMO decent, loving, faithful men -- there stock is always going to trade high -- with other decent, loving faithful women. And judging by who women cheat with -- pansy-assed, douch*bags -- a big trade DOWN -- I don't think they're looking for Alpha. I think they cheat for the reasons men cheat -- lack of character and the need for ego kibbles. Ego Kibbles

I think these theories are just another way to blame the victim. Oh! You loved your wife too much! You weren't alpha enough! Next time be withholding! Be a douch*bag! Women RESPECT that!

Bull hockey.

I think it's true for betrayed men or women, that they tend to be the better spouse. The more invested, together spouse. And the cheaters are narcissistic. It's not that you LACKED something, it's that THEY lacked something -- character, a soul, morals, boundaries.

I think these books play to a male fear of not being played again. Not being vulnerable. If they can point to something You Did Wrong.

Fact is, intimacy makes us vulnerable. And a cheater can drive your life into a ditch. You didn't CAUSE this -- because we don't have control over other people. That's scary and it's liberating. It's not your fault.

Saying, oh, I could've saved this if I'd had more hobbies and been less available for my family or something, makes me want to shake you and say "HEY! There are thousands of women who WANT a good man! Do NOT morph into a JERK! Do NOT let this experience rob you of your DECENCY! That is VALUED! Find someone who VALUES YOU and shut up about your alpha sh*t!"

Sermon over.
 

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A man can be beta but he needs alpha traits at the forefront of his relationship at least.

I won't really discuss betas losing out, truth is they do.

When you go by statistics, abusing and controlling spouses are rarely cheated on while the ones who would anything and everything for their spouses do get cheated on.

I'm not saying everyone should go out and be a controlling ass hat, but those are the facts.

When someone has to put serious work, time, and love into their relationship they're less likely to cheat due to the amount of effort it takes to maintain.

When a partner does literally nothing to facilitate love in the relationship, but is smothered in love and affection anyway, they may take it for granted, partly because they believe it will always be there for them and they don't have to do anything to maintain it. This kind of thinking devalues the affection they get from the partner and you'll have waywards going out having affairs for the 'thrills' they can't find or ask for in their comfy marriage.

A perfect example of this happening is Old Mittens wife. She did love him, but felt bored and like she was getting old and unattractive and went out and sexed up his best friend.

Regardless of her affair destroying her marriage and busting up the family, it all started because she looked for cheap 'thrills' she couldn't or wouldn't get out of her comfy with marriage oldmittens.

Its give and take on both parts really, thats what a relationship is.

When a partner is completely beta, all they do is give and give and give. On the flip side, this behavior accustoms their partner to being used to not giving(or caring about partner's needs) just taking and receiving.

So when they want more affection that their husband/wife can't give, their gonna quietly resent that and go out and find someone else who can give them the affection they want. Because when it comes to receiving affection they don't have give and take mentality, its just all about them and their individual wants being serviced so the beta spouse gets quickly pushed out of the picture because their wants never truly mattered or registered with the wayward.
 

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I think it's true for betrayed men or women, that they tend to be the better spouse. The more invested, together spouse. And the cheaters are narcissistic. It's not that you LACKED something, it's that THEY lacked something -- character, a soul, morals, boundaries.



Sermon over.
Exactly, and an excellent point. Shirley Glass an experienced marriage counselor mentions this, too, as do many other psych pros, and a great post.

I have read that book, and I think it's likely responsible for a high number of failed marriages.
 

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I've never read any of the books thrown around like "NMMNG" or "MMSL" (think I got the acronyms right). I think most of us have all of the tools needed and can figure out what works vs what doesn't work. The personality types like Alpha, Beta, Omega, etc are overly simplistic just like the body types we learn about in health like ectomorph, endomorph and mesomorph. There are truths to all of these concepts, but we need to use a critical mind when reading about these topics.

Personally, I do not like these labels for men because IMO they only explain some of what's going on in situations but not the whole picture. So to me the phrase "Nice guys finish last" is a misnomer, and should correctly be replaced with "Doormats finish last". That's the error here IMO. It's not being nice that is the problem - it's being submissive and subservient to your spouse that can kill attraction. The flip side is equally true. Excessively selfish and domineering people (i.e. excessive "alpha") lose out in the end too.

IMO, the chances of having a strong marriage is built on Love, Trust and Respect. Also, being best friends is very important too IMO but is not always the case for all marriages. But everything is tied together through clear and open communication. Does you spouse know that he/she is loved by your words and actions? Same with Respect and Trust. If you can't communicate it clearly then it's no different than it not being there in the first place. Also, forgot to add that all of this has to be reciprocated. Just like you have to clearly communicate these feelings to your spouse, you also have to demand that your spouse commit to the same feelings that you do.

Just wanted to throw some thoughts out there on this.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
When a partner does literally nothing to facilitate love in the relationship, but is smothered in love and affection anyway, they may take it for granted, partly because they believe it will always be there for them and they don't have to do anything to maintain it. This kind of thinking devalues the affection they get from the partner and you'll have waywards going out having affairs for the 'thrills' they can't find or ask for in their comfy marriage.
To me, the key words here are "A partner does NOTHING"

Healthy relationships are based upon reciprocity. If you're married to someone who does NOTHING -- and that doesn't bother the sh*t out of you? Then you're codependent, beta, doormat, whatever you want to call it. It's a problem -- YES. But that's true for women as it is for men.

I think the problem is that we spackle. We get the nothing and dress it up as something.
 

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I haven't read "Moby D!ck", but I plan to. However, I will say that books about seafood are stupid. I don't know why anybody likes the book. Seriously? 600 pages about a whale? How can anybody take that seriously? If you want a good story about fish, watch "Finding Nemo".

Of course, given that fact that I haven't read the book, I could have a complete misunderstanding of what is in it. ;)
 

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To me, the key words here are "A partner does NOTHING"

Healthy relationships are based upon reciprocity. If you're married to someone who does NOTHING -- and that doesn't bother the sh*t out of you? Then you're codependent, beta, doormat, whatever you want to call it. It's a problem -- YES. But that's true for women as it is for men.

I think the problem is that we spackle. We get the nothing and dress it up as something.
Yes, exactly the problem is being a beta, and I used (tried to anyways) non gender specific terms to imply that both men and women do this.

Betas are like this. They have partners who don't do anything for the relationship to grow, but they just keep it at.

Which is exactly why they get cheated on.
 

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I haven't read "Moby D!ck", but I plan to. However, I will say that books about seafood are stupid. I don't know why anybody likes the book. Seriously? 600 pages about a whale? How can anybody take that seriously? If you want a good story about fish, watch "Finding Nemo".

Of course, given that fact that I haven't read the book, I could have a complete misunderstanding of what is in it. ;)
I read it.

It's a joke.

I am the only girl in a large family with a lot of brothers.

The good looking confident brothers, think the book is a joke too.

The less confident ones tried to use some of the tactics in it and they worked to a degree but were very temporary and mostly backfired in their real relationships.

The methods and labels are waaaaay too simplistic for the complexity of the human mind.

The methods may work on a very simplistic (reptilian brained ) person, but who wants that.

As for Chump lady, There are a ton of excerpts of this book every where on line.

You can read the cliff notes and get totally understand a book.

I suggest you buy the cliff notes on Moby ****. The cliff notes get straight to the meat of the book without having to muck through all the fat.

And, you will still get an A on your final exam whether you read the cliff notes or the book, my friend.

Added later. I find it a more than a Jungian meaningful coincidence that you picked a book like Moby **** in which the **** part is filtered out on the website.

So danged amusing.
 

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I'm not a guy, and I haven't read the book (but I will), but I have to say I find the premise totally off putting.
If you believe that, of the millions of women who cheat on their husbands, they were all (or mostly) just psychopaths who have no concern for anyone else, you're wrong. These women are usually looking for something that is missing in their marriages. And the most common thing missing is passion and attraction for their husbands.

I think these theories are just another way to blame the victim. Oh! You loved your wife too much! You weren't alpha enough! Next time be withholding! Be a douch*bag! Women RESPECT that!

Bull hockey.
Women don't usually cheat with men they respect. There is a reason that most affairs never progress into long-term relationships. And why those that do almost always fail. It's because the affair isn't based on mature, balanced emotions. It's based on 'gina tingles. And alpha traits bring on the tingles.

I think these books play to a male fear of not being played again. Not being vulnerable. If they can point to something You Did Wrong.
The truth is somewhere in the middle. Of course, someone with perfect morals will not cheat. But most people don't have perfect morals. Most people are vulnerable. And if you are married to a woman who is vulnerable to cheating, as most are, then it will serve a man well to try to fulfill as many of her needs as possible (including tingles).

Look at it like a rape. Nobody deserves to be raped. But if a woman walks naked into a biker bar, there is a high probability she will be raped. And if she is, she should probably learn the lesson not to do that anymore.

Saying, oh, I could've saved this if I'd had more hobbies and been less available for my family or something, makes me want to shake you and say "HEY! There are thousands of women who WANT a good man! Do NOT morph into a JERK! Do NOT let this experience rob you of your DECENCY! That is VALUED! Find someone who VALUES YOU and shut up about your alpha sh*t!"
Here, you're back to misunderstanding what alpha is. The fact that some jerks are alpha does not mean that alpha traits mean one must be a jerk. It's just a correlation. Alpha traits include assertiveness, confidence, physical fitness, and leadership. Now, the leader of a motorcycle gang has all these traits. The captain of the chess club likely has none. That's why the biker will have more success with women than the nerd. It's not because women are attracted to felons.
 

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OP go to the website/blog and you'll get a good whiff of what this guy's writing is like; then you can decide whether or not to waste ten bucks on the book. :rolleyes:
 

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Look at it like a rape. Nobody deserves to be raped. But if a woman walks naked into a biker bar, there is a high probability she will be raped. And if she is, she should probably learn the lesson not to do that anymore.
As evolved humans we should be able to over ride the urge to have sex with a women who walks into a bar naked.

Are you saying it would be okay to rape this woman?

Anyone who would rape her definitely has damaged frontal lobes and lacks self control.

Most psychopaths and sociopaths and narccissists have shown on imaging test to have deficits, either physical or chemical in the frontal lobes and emotional centers of the brain.

Yes. there is a high probability that this woman walking into a bar naked will run into a psychopath or sociopath in the group.

So yes, it would be stupid, but your analogy does not negate chump lady's claim.
 

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Read the book first. Understand what is meant by "Alpha". Alpha's can be nice guys, just not the kind that will roll over for women. And that book isn't made for cheated on husbands. It's made for all males in long relationships.
:iagree:

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I am the only girl in a large family with a lot of brothers.

The good looking confident brothers, think the book is a joke too.
I'm not surprised. I'm helping to coach my son's football team this year. I played football for many years when I was younger, and I've followed football for years. But, I've never coached before.

So, I bought "Coaching Football for Dummies" for $0.99 on my Kindle. It was a joke. I already knew everything in the book. However, for someone completely new to the game, it would have been valuable.

So, if you have great success with women, are naturally alpha, and have an innate understanding of what women are looking for in men, then I agree that the book is not for you. You don't need a book to tell you something you already know. However, if you are a fairly typical husband with a wife who is steadily pulling back from you, your sex life is slowly tanking, and you're responding by running faster and faster on your hamster wheel doing things that your wife isn't attracted to, the book can be a boon.

The less confident ones tried to use some of the tactics in it and they worked to a degree but were very temporary and mostly backfired in their real relationships.
If the results were temporary, then I suspect the application of the methods was temporary. Athol doesn't advise a man to act more assertive for a couple of weeks. He advises him to permanently become more assertive. In a relationship, temporary actions won't help anything.

The methods and labels are waaaaay too simplistic for the complexity of the human mind.

The methods may work on a very simplistic (reptilian brained ) person, but who wants that.
I disagree. People aren't snowflakes. People mostly want the same things and they react the same way to similar stimuli.

As for Chump lady, There are a ton of excerpts of this book every where on line.

You can read the cliff notes and get totally understand a book.
That's true. You can read Athol's blog and get a decent grasp of some of the basic concepts. However, it didn't appear the Chump lady had done that. She had the common misconception that alpha=mean and beta=nice. That equivalency is nowhere in Athol's work.
 

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Alpha doesn't mean jerk.

It means a guy is not going to worship you.
I used to do anything and everything for a self-entitled typical American society girl. Guess how that turned out?

After my divorce I stopped giving girls attention. I stopped complimenting them, and I stopped caring about what they thought of me. I didn't ignore them, I wasn't mean to them. I just knew that their opinions aren't relevant just because they're pretty, and I started reflecting that truth in my interactions with them. I was going to school at the time and every young attractive girl became obsessed with me.

So when someone says that girls like jerks and despise nice guys, that's not accurate but it points toward something that is absolutely true: women are like cats. They need something to chase, and they'll chase it and chase it until they know they can have it. Then they're bored with it. If you dangle something in front of a cat and tease it, it will chase it forever.

So I'll just keep dangling myself in front of them, and they'll keep on chasing.
 

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As evolved humans we should be able to over ride the urge to have sex with a women who walks into a bar naked.
Totally off topic but as evolved humans we should understand that food shelter and ahem,clothing are the basic human needs and as such we shouldn't go around traipsing through the country side in our birthday suits trying to get our needs met.


Back to the point, I kinda liked the book. Besides, it isn't for women, its for men to read and women to be the subjects of its implementation. But I do agree with some of his points, major one being, don't ever beg for sex like a puppy dog.
 

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As evolved humans we should be able to over ride the urge to have sex with a women who walks into a bar naked.

Are you saying it would be okay to rape this woman?

Anyone who would rape her definitely has damaged frontal lobes and lacks self control.

Most psychopaths and sociopaths and narccissists have shown on imaging test to have deficits, either physical or chemical in the frontal lobes and emotional centers of the brain.

Yes. there is a high probability that this woman walking into a bar naked will run into a psychopath or sociopath in the group.

So yes, it would be stupid, but your analogy does not negate chump lady's claim.
As evolved human beings though, women should understand that walking into a bar naked is not an inherently neutral gesture. It is an extremely lewd gesture that declares "I want to have sex." Anyone who would do that and not expect ramifications has definitely damaged her frontal lobes, and lacks self control.

It's not about the probability of her encountering a psychopath- it's about the gesture itself.
 
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As evolved human beings though, women should understand that walking into a bar naked is not an inherently neutral gesture. It is an extremely lewd gesture that declares "I want to have sex." Anyone who would do that and not expect ramifications has definitely damaged her frontal lobes, and lacks self control.

It's not about the probability of her encountering a psychopath- it's about the gesture itself.
I agree, but the analogy was not mine. I was responding to a silly analogy.

And, quite honestly, how many times have you actually heard of a woman walking into a bar naked?

In the age of instant media, I have never.

I did once see a man walking down the street naked, and another who was chasing after a hooker who stole his wallet during a BJ in his truck, with his pants down and his wang hanging out, in Manhattan once. :rofl:
 

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Here, you're back to misunderstanding what alpha is. The fact that some jerks are alpha does not mean that alpha traits mean one must be a jerk. It's just a correlation. Alpha traits include assertiveness, confidence, physical fitness, and leadership. Now, the leader of a motorcycle gang has all these traits. The captain of the chess club likely has none. That's why the biker will have more success with women than the nerd. It's not because women are attracted to felons.
I get what your saying and I agree to a certain extent. IMO, the model is too simplistic and simply lacks enough sophistication to explain what's going on effectively. Alpha traits can be observed in short bald guys with hairy backs, beta traits can be observed in body builders, and even bikers can make the mistake of trying to give their woman everything possible under the sun.

I think these models are much more effective when males and females are playing the dating game, but the theories become less useful when we're talking about long term relationships and marriage. We've learned a long time ago that when we don't stick up for ourselves that people won't respect us and will walk all over us. We've also learned that if we want to keep the romance in our relationships that we need to continue to work at it. Keeping in shape, paying attention to your spouse and communicating to them are all part of the tending to your marriage. To me it comes down to you having the ability to take care of those things that you have control over.

At the end of the day, even if you do all of the right things, you may still end up being a BS. Why? Because that's just how life is because we all were given free will. When we put a lot of work and effort into our marriages by doing the "right" things, all we can do is reduce the chances of infidelity.

All of these theories - just like the free market theories - assume that everyone is a rational actor. In reality, we aren't. Sure, the models can explain some of what's going on but clearly you'll never get a handle on all of it.
 

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Are you saying it would be okay to rape this woman?
:D I figured that analogy would ruffle some feathers. It appears you skipped right over the sentence I wrote that said, "Nobody deserves to be raped."

Anyone who would rape her definitely has damaged frontal lobes and lacks self control.
Sure. Rapists definitely aren't your average bear. Does that mean you would advise your daughters or nieces to walk naked down the street secure in the knowledge that they won't be responsible for any assault that might befall them? I wouldn't. I would advise my children to keep themselves out of situations where the risk of harm would be great.

So yes, it would be stupid, but your analogy does not negate chump lady's claim.
Chump lady is arguing that betrayed spouses are guiltless for being cheated on. I'm saying that's not always the case.

Just as the woman who walks naked into a bar bears some responsibility for creating a situation where she is very likely to be assaulted, the betrayed spouse often has helped create a marriage that is very vulnerable to infidelity. Yes, most of the blame should lie with the rapist or the cheater. However, arguing that ALL the blame should lie with them is to ignore common sense and insist that walking naked into a bar is a reasonable thing to do.
 
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