ACE,
Kudos for a candid, and unfiltered response. I want to make a few clarifying points that are really important.
First, I do not ever advocate being an a$$. It sets a bad example for the children and it is just wrong. Everything I suggest is within the context of the golden rule. I don't suggest doing anything to someone else, that you would not want done to you.
The biggest issue that you currently have is that your fiancee is taking you for granted. I am going to take what you have posted in this thread and do a bit of extrapolation based on a very typical dynamic. Feel free to let me know where I am "off base" since surely some of my generalizations will not apply to your situation.
I grew up with a set of genderizations which I expected to be true in my own marriage:
- Men don't apologize enough, women apologize for stuff that they should not
- Men won't ask for directions (subtext is that this is showing weakness) women (being practical, and not so worried about their ego/self image/others perception of them) will do so without hesitation
- Men take more risks in everything, including investments
- Men are "lower affect", more emotionally reserved and less willing to discuss their feelings
- Men are more "wired for conflict", women are more the peace makers
- Women want a kind/gentle man who buys scented candles and makes love to them in a soft and slow manner
- ...(I have a longer list - for the moment I will stop here)
Every single one of those templates is backwards in our marriage. And that is ok, as we have "adapted" very well to each other. Had I not adapted, we would be celibate or divorced.
At 30,000 feet all relationships are predicated on three things:
- respect
- communication
- trust
And here is how this typically ties together
1. respect
(Man) My W is being disrespectful by ignoring my emotional need to feel loved through sex. This makes me angry.
(Wife) My H says nasty/hurtful things to me when he is angry. It is a big turn off to see him lose control of his emotions, as that is something I expect from a child, not a man. He is angry I don't feel "desire" for him. It isn't just about whether or not we "have" sex, he NEEDS me to feel sexual way more than I do. And when I don't feel that way, he gets angry. I don't directly control my desire level. He doesn't respect how I feel.
(Man) I don't ask that much from her, it makes me angry that she is happy to ask a LOT from me, and then ignore my short list of priorities. It shows a lack of respect and appreciation for what I do for her, and indirectly her kids.
2. communication
(Man) I have no idea why she is doing what she does half the time
(Wife) He doesn't pay much attention to my tone, body language, and facial expressions. Certain things are awkward, and I don't want to have to "say them in words". I liked hearing him say "I love you" when we were dating. I felt less anxious about life in general knowing he cared about me. But as things heated up and we moved in together it sounds less and less like "I love you" and more and more like "do you love me?" He isn't a "clingy" man, but somehow I feel a bit smothered and THAT is a huge turn off.
(Man) Everyone told me women like a sensitive man.
(Wife) Laughing - "Sensitive, yeah, ok. I'm the woman, I'm the one who gets to be easily upset. I want him to be sensitive to ME. Not sensitive as in he gets easily upset or is frequently expressing anxiety, anger, frustration or resentment. I HATE having long conversations about how HE feels unhappy about stuff. I know when I am being a bltch. Why doesn't he just slap me on the butt, look me in the eye and tell me to go in the bedroom and get undressed because he is going to come in and "take me".
(Man) When I explain in detail how I feel she seems to be even more irritated. Why is she doing this.
(Wife) After this long conversation about how I was disrespectful or bltchy, he goes and does a bunch of housework/flowers/dinner/nice stuff. First I have to endure this long, tense conversation about how he is upset with me. And then, he does all this "extra nice stuff" so I will have sex with him. I know I was a bltch. It doesnt chance the fact that:
- A highly emotional (his) conversation followed by
- A sort of subservient type super nice routine
Is a big turn off.
And getting this constant desire vibe, and all the I love you stuff when you are turned off, just makes it all worse. I want it to work, because he really is a good guy, but I am not getting into bed with him simply because I know he is feeling ignored. The thing is he yelled at me for not having sex the night before, I am not ok with rewarding that kind of interaction. Instead of trying to "buy" my cooperation or desire with flowers or a dinner, why doesn't he just show ME his raw desire. THAT is honest communication. And when I am being bltchy, an immediate and aggressive sexual response is a good response. And if I reject him, maybe he should ignore me until I apologize and drag him to bed for makeup sex. I need to know he can withstand my disapproval and/or my anger.
Trust
(Wife) I don't trust him to manage his emotions. I don't trust him not to crowd me with ILYs even when it should be obvious he is smothering me. I don't trust him not to get angry at me for not "loving him enough, showing him enough love". And if he really trusted that I love him, why can't he give me enough space to actually approach HIM? In a way, I don't think he trusts how I feel about him. Or he lacks the confidence to know that I will approach him if he gives me space. Either way.
(Man) I don't feel very trusting. The more commitment I have shown, the more loving I have become, the colder she has gotten. Who the heck acts like that? If I have to play "games", I don't want to be together.
Disclaimer: The stuff above is not a right or wrong thing. It just "is".
Ace,
If this is close to the mark, you need to do a reset. And the reset kind of goes like this. If you call her, you should keep it short.
(you) I apologize for the way I spoke to you before I left. I now realize that I have been handling our conflict badly. Going forward I will manage my anger like a grown up. Doesn't mean I won't get angry. If I do, I will let you know in a calm, constructive manner.
If you get a cool response, just accept it. Do not say the words I love you on this call. Not even at the end. Just say "have a good night". Don't even say "I will see you Friday".
When you get home - you should be friendly and happy without being warm. LET HER COME TO YOU. Or not. Let her decide if she wants the engagement to continue. If she isn't friendly do not reward the lack of warmth. If you had plans to take her out, tell her that you are going to have to reschedule. Don't apologize, and don't explain. Just say "I am going to have to take a rain check on that". Let her get angry. If you can't tolerate her anger, this situation will only get worse.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
If the opportunity comes up while you are home, you could share this with her:
As for the physical part of our relationship, I like that you don't "pretend" to feel differently than you actually do feel. I like the honesty. That said, I am going to make an observation. After a long work week, there are times when I don't feel like going out even though we have plans. The reason I get dressed up and drive somewhere with you, is because you are a high priority to me. And in the spirit of starting the night off on a positive note, I keep my lack of enthusiasm to myself. The good part of this dynamic is that once we get there, I almost always have fun. That isn't going to change.
What I need you to do, to show me the same level of commitment physically. You may need to show me how to get you warmed up, when you start out not feeling that way. And that also means I need you to be more comfortable sharing turn on/turn off stuff since that will only strengthen our bond.
And then shut up and listen. Make eye contact and use a very low key delivery. If you don't like what you hear, stop all the loving stuff until she approaches you and commits to fixing the physical part of the R.
MEM, read the thread re the thermostat. Quite interesting and I guess I would be the warm partner in a bunch of the ways.
Its so strange, when I was aloof and came and went as I pleased and didn't help at her house or with her kids etc, sex was not an issue, it was great ! When I stepped up and became her partner like she said she wanted then all the crap started.
So when a man does the "right thing" then he gets disrespected from his partner ???? When men change ( maybe for the better )and try to become what our partners want then we get treated like dirt and if I continued to ignore her children and kept her around for my entertainment went out with out her all the time etc then I get treatd well and she's ready to have wild and crazy sex ????
Its just hard to understand, and makes me want to just behave like an ass.....
I guess we'll see, Im out of town till next monday, after being nasty and letting her know I was quite pissed to her on Monday I have not called or made much contact since Monday morning
.
Neither has she.... guess I shouldnt call ???? we will see who caves first.
Is it really that important as to who calls who first if we love each other, why wouldn't I just pick up the phone and see how she's doing ??
I was married for 22 years so these silly games seem like a waste of time/energy either be with someone or tell them to get lost