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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
For those who know the whole parental alienation story, you realize this is really going to suck.

Kiddo has been weepy off and on for a while now. I thought maybe she was going to start her period but instead she's getting pressure from Dad, I think.

I have her phone and facebook password and "spot check" conversations for appropriateness. Because I was worried I popped in to see if she'd talked to friends about why she was sad. The only clue I got was "the same thing I've been dealing with for 10 years and I'm afraid I'll lose one of my parents one way or the other". Well, that's the divorce. And ex threatened for a long time that some day she'll hate me for keeping her away from him (note I was only limiting her time and courts agreed b/c of his mental health, poor parenting and manipulation to which she is blind). And my daughter told me when she was seven that her Dad said when she got older the courts would let her choose who to live with.

So I think now that her 14th birthday just passed that her father has been putting pressure on her to choose to live with him and she's afraid if she does I'll hate her and if she doesn't he will. This would mean living an hour away from me and going to a different school. And his promise of a car has now gone from a Mustang to a BMW convertible (even tho he lives with his Mom and drives a CRV with body damage he's never had repaired). I'm guessing he thinks if he's not paying support and instead receiving it he can afford this.

Whereas I've always told her when she learns to drive I'll get a new car and give her my well maintained and safe (side airbags, etc.) 4cy. sedan. Which I think is much better for a new driver. She won't need a powerful car.

This is all speculation but his comments and threats plus our history added to her angst as of late and the 10-year issue comment all lead me to believe this is where it's headed.

I took her out to dinner and had an honest conversation about the divorce with her and answered some tough questions openly. And told her that I realize there will come a time when she will be able to live where she wants and assured her no matter what I will ALWAYS love her and my home is always open to her.

I think she may choose him but I think she will be unhappy after a bit and start to spend more time with me once she's able to drive. I wanted her to know that I wouldn't ever hold that against her. She should never have to feel like she'll loose my love. I know her Dad has made his "love" contingent upon things and has guilted her into feeling responsible for his happiness. He has no life of his own which I feel is very unhealthy and emphasizes how she's everything to him. So I know she will have a hard time saying no to his pressure and more than anything I wanted her to be able to choose her Dad and KNOW she has me, too. I know she feels if she chooses me she'll loose her Dad. If this is the only way she can have both of us, then I'll be supportive for her sake.

But I still keep hoping his triglycerides in the 700s plus high cholesterol and high BP will end up in a massive coronary soon. Where's karma when you need it?

I'm just sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop. I know it will happen in the next year or two.

Sorry for the length - I really just needed to vent some.
 

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And his promise of a car has now gone from a Mustang to a BMW convertible (even tho he lives with his Mom and drives a CRV with body damage he's never had repaired).

I know her Dad has made his "love" contingent upon things and has guilted her into feeling responsible for his happiness. He has no life of his own which I feel is very unhealthy.
:slap: Oh great..there's ANOTHER one like that out there! :banghead: :slap:

Promising a 14 year old a BMW convertible is just plain ridiculous. Same with a Mustang. Even the base Mustangs are way too expensive and powerful for a new driver. Besides, what kind of values does that instill in a teenager?

My H went out and BOUGHT my daughter a new car (2010 Nissan Cube) without even consulting with me. Originally she was going to buy her own car after saving up the money herself. I wanted to see her in a new, safe car with a warranty so my plan was to take the money she'd save and use it as a down payment on a new car and help her get a loan.

I was happy that he did buy her a car because she works hard and could use the money she saved for other things (like college). Then he started to use the car as tool to manipulate, control and intimidate my daughter.

It didn't work. He finally wound up taking it away and he's pretty much destroyed whatever relationship he had with our daughter. Now he's telling our 15 year old son he's going to "help" get him a car! :rolleyes: I keep telling him that his sister bought her own car that he will have to do the same. I don't want him to expect a new car from his father!

I helped my daughter buy another car..A nice, safe Mazda 2 that cost $15k that SHE is making the loan payments on. The loan is in HER name with me as co-signer and I'm paying the insurance. This way she is building credit, buying her OWN car and learning the value of a dollar. She's also paying for her college education.

Going out and outright buying a 16 year old a car is well intentioned but I don't think it sends the right message. Your Ex is trying to buy your daughter's love. It doesn't work that way. If she doesn't respond or act the way HE wants her to then he'll use it as a weapon. That'll mess your daughter up big time.

My daughter told her father to shove it when he tried to sell the car back to her at the cost of the rest of the loan on it and has walked away from him. She says "The father I loved died 3 years ago". Sad. :(

But he dug his own grave.

She loves her new car because it is HERS. She said that she could never feel good about paying money for a car that was supposed to be a gift. It would piss her off. She wanted to start fresh and I was glad to be able to help her out.

But she earned it. If she wasn't working and doing well in school and ABLE to buy a new car I never would've helped her. I certainly wouldn't outright buy her one. That was never the plan. My H just went off and did what he wanted without my input.

And yes, my STBXH drives around in a 10 year old Honda Element (same platform as the CRV) with body damage and lives off his father's money that was left to him. Interesting, eh? ;)
 

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As far as your daughter wanting to live with her father..Well that might happen. My 15 year old son chose to live with his father and would still be with him if his father hadn't started drinking and neglecting him. I had no problem with him living with his father. Sometimes you have to let kids choose and find out for themselves.

Unfortunately it's the responsible parent who actually has to PARENT that gets tagged as being "boring" or "controlling" or "nagging". It's the burden we carry for being a PARENT and doing our job. In the end I hope that my son will look back on how I've been there for him and appreciate it but right now I can only do what needs to be done and do it the best way I can.

One things for sure, you can't buy your kid's love. Or at least you shouldnt be able to. Your daughter is now at an age where she will be able to figure these things out for herself so you'll have to let her but also let her know that she'll always have a place with you. That's what I did with my son.
 
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Your counting the days until the father of your child dies? Man he must have been a real piece of work.
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Holy moses, Enjoli! You're in the same boat as me!

Daughter is now 15yo. I left her dad when she was 14yo. She was originally going to come with me (7 hours drive, 1 state away), but decided to stay with her dad to finish high school.

He manipulates her (he's a narcisist) and promises her the world. When I went to pick her up for Xmas, she started crying because her DAD was all upset (about a 2 week visit!). When I was driving her home, SHE started crying because she was going to miss me (I, however, was NOT upset/crying).

She knows that if she had moved with me, her Dad would have cut her completely out of his life (living examples: his two older daughters), but if she stayed with him, she knew that I would never cut her out, or be mad at her for staying with him. By staying with him, she gets to keep both parents. She feels SORRY for him because he has no family. He actually DOES have family, but he's so arrogant and jack-assy that they don't have anything to do with him.

PM me if you need to talk, vent, commiserate, whatever!

I, too, am hoping that STBXH's 2-pack a day smoking, unmedicated high-blood pressure, bad diet, lack of exercise means he's due for a fatal heart attack soon. Mine's a better bet than yours, though, he's 64yo!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Freak -

I totally agree on the appropriateness of the car and feel what I would provide is a better choice. I hope she sees her Dad for what he really is - I shared his diagnosis with her and gave her examples of how it impacted our marriage. I was careful to stick to facts and not my opinion or to bad-mouth him.

He has enmeshed their personalities and she really identifies with him. I think she's finally pulling out of that a tiny bit and becoming her own person. For years if he loved it, she did, too. If he hated it, she did, too (including me).

I hope she eventually gets it but I know fighting it will back-fire so I have to let her learn on her own.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Ritchie - yes, he is. You can read my story via my sig line and if you want to know more at Parental Alienation Syndrome I posted in parenting section. It's been a he// of a ride.

He stole my journal and used it in court because I had written that I wished he would die in a fatal car crash so I wouldn't have to deal with him. His attorney asked me on the stand if I wrote it. I looked at the judge and said "Yes, I wrote that. I don't think there's a woman alive who has been abused by her husband who hasn't wished her abuser dead at some point." The judge kind of nodded in understanding/agreement. I think his attorney was surprised that I owned it. I still do. He told our daughter that I wanted him dead. Of course he leaves out the fact he was abusive. She was four and only remembers yelling, not hitting.

Edited to add: Of course I NEVER would tell my daughter such a thing. That was for my journal ONLY. I never told her I wished he'd just die.

He has made my life hell which is exactly what he threatened to do should I leave him. And he's doing it to our daughter in the name of "love" - the only reason he "loves" her is because he identifies her as being part of him and as a narcissist he can really only love himself, hence enmeshing their personalities so much.

"The best revenge is living well" - I live it.
 

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I, too, am hoping that STBXH's 2-pack a day smoking, unmedicated high-blood pressure, bad diet, lack of exercise means he's due for a fatal heart attack soon. Mine's a better bet than yours, though, he's 64yo!
My dad is a full blown destructive narcissist. He passed away last Oct at the age of 71. And people in my family normally live to 90. Drinking did him in but he also had a bad diet and didn't exercise either.

To the OP I'm sorry that you're going through this. I have a friend dealing with the same thing right now. She's accepted her daughter will go stay with her dad but believes it won't last (I agree). All he wants is to pay less child support and for her to be his maid. Yeah that won't last long. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Slowly -

Yes, they sounds a lot alike! I left him when daughter was four and she just turned 14. Every couple of years he pulls some crap. Last time was June 2009 - May 2010 when he finally settled out of court for half the visitation he had prior once he saw the psychologist's report two weeks before our court date.

The guilt she has over feeling like she has to meet her Dad's needs is so wrong, but we can't tell them that, can we?

As to his health, he's 12 years older than I and will turn 57 this month. Not too far behind yours. :)

Narcissism in it's truest form really does suck, doesn't it? The psychologist's report followed the diagnosis with "and is unlikely to see any improvement whatsoever even with long term intensive treatment". After I looked up NPD I SO understood our marriage! It was like a lightbulb turned on in my head. Now I just have to make sure daughter doesn't turn out that way so yes, I'm the logical, rule-enforcing parent while he's nothing but fun. He even sends her dirty clothes back after visits.

And just like yours, even though he has a brother and SIL and nephews they totally disown him. He has step brothers/sisters (mom remarried after their dad died when he was in his 20s) that don't have anything to do with him. Literally only his mother cares about him and probably now needs him since she's in her 90s and he lives with her.

Ah the stories we could share!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My dad is a full blown destructive narcissist. He passed away last Oct at the age of 71. And people in my family normally live to 90. Drinking did him in but he also had a bad diet and didn't exercise either.

To the OP I'm sorry that you're going through this. I have a friend dealing with the same thing right now. She's accepted her daughter will go stay with her dad but believes it won't last (I agree). All he wants is to pay less child support and for her to be his maid. Yeah that won't last long. ;)
Were you able to see this as a youngster or did you worship him? Kiddo thinks he walks on water (because he thinks so). Just curious how this will effect her. You seem so grounded.
 

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Yep, my daughter is his live-in maid. I think it's been good for her in some ways...she HAS been forced to grow up. She used to do the usual whining about chores, "forget" them, argue about them. Now, if she doesn't do them...they don't get done! Oops, no clean clothes, oops nothing's ironed, oops bathroom's filthy!

She's been with him since end of May 2012 and is still going strong. I think he's been better with her since I left anyway. He ignored her the entire first 14 years of her life! If she wasn't doing something HE wanted to do (ride horses, go swimming), he'd simply disengage and pretend she didn't exist. Pretty hard to ignore her now that there's only the 2 of them in the house!

But she does tell him off when she thinks he's being a lazy jerk. So, good on her!

STBXH drove himself to the emergency room 7 days after I left! He was hospitalized with pneumonia; says he almost died. Was told to quit smoking; he hasn't...smokes as much as ever! He brings it on himself. The sooner he's gone, the sooner I will NO LONGER have to deal with him and his messes in any way, shape or form. Won't be soon enough for me.

BTW: His promised new car for her: new Cadillac! yeah, sure! I tell her 'don't get your hopes up!'
 

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Were you able to see this as a youngster or did you worship him? Kiddo thinks he walks on water (because he thinks so). Just curious how this will effect her. You seem so grounded.
I'm sad to say I worshipped him but my parents didn't divorce so I was with him CONSTANTLY. I thought he walked on water too. I was the golden child - his narcissistic supply.

He began to piss me off when I hit the latter teenage years with his controlling ways. I distanced myself from him but got sucked back in when I got married (25) because I wanted to appear "normal" to my new husband...yeah that was a mistake. LOL

I'm grounded because I've spent almost 4 years in therapy. I've done the work to heal. Being raised by a narcissist damaged me in ways I can't even begin to describe. And my mother was worse because she never once protected me. She hated me so I got it from both sides.

Fun fun but I don't regret any of it. I'm good now and happy.
 

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Kiddo thinks he walks on water (because he thinks so). Just curious how this will effect her.
Thank god, my kiddo sees him as he truly is. She's called him an ass, a d1ck, and an idiot since I've left (usually for his nasty, lying, crappy treatment of ME even though I'm gone.)

We had a LONG talk the night before I left. I laid out the facts for her. Told her I thought staying with him was unsafe because he's unstable, he doesn't have income, he promises anything, but doesn't deliver... Told her the truth. She's smart, she's seen it. I made sure she had a plan in place (friends who understand what's going on, somewhere to go, phone at all times, etc.)

She's made her choice and she has to accept ALL of it. I've told her she is welcome to live with me any time she wants to. But, there will be no jumping back and forth...live with dad till you have a fight, move in with mom till you disagree, move back to dad....Nope. If she comes here, it's to STAY.

We'll see how it goes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Good idea, Slowly - about no bouncing back and forth. If she decides to go and then calls wanting to move back, I'll set that same expectation.

I think leaving when she was so young, she only got the Dad who takes her to the park, the beach, to the circus and lets her have ice cream whenever she wants it. He refuses to do homework with her because "he only sees her four days out of the month and isn't going to waste their time doing homework." Great example. :rolleyes:
 

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Thank god, my kiddo sees him as he truly is. She's called him an ass, a d1ck, and an idiot since I've left (usually for his nasty, lying, crappy treatment of ME even though I'm gone.)
I knew this about my dad too. Our relationship was complicated because I was his surrogate wife (sans the sex).

We did this triangulation thing where I joined him in being mean to my mother but because I cared about my mom I'd try to side with her too. My childhood was spent with me trying to make them both happy and I failed miserably.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I'm sad to say I worshipped him but my parents didn't divorce so I was with him CONSTANTLY. I thought he walked on water too. I was the golden child - his narcissistic supply.

He began to piss me off when I hit the latter teenage years with his controlling ways. I distanced myself from him but got sucked back in when I got married (25) because I wanted to appear "normal" to my new husband...yeah that was a mistake. LOL

I'm grounded because I've spent almost 4 years in therapy. I've done the work to heal. Being raised by a narcissist damaged me in ways I can't even begin to describe. And my mother was worse because she never once protected me. She hated me so I got it from both sides.

Fun fun but I don't regret any of it. I'm good now and happy.
I'm glad you're well. Right now he refuses to let her take her phone with her to his house. He thinks I access it remotely and spy via the speaker and camera and using the locator feature. :rolleyes: So she has to leave it with me or if he gets her from school she has to turn it off and stick it in the linen closet under a pile of towels. Psycho.

I wondered if she'd ever see what he really is. I'm guessing when he starts acting pissy because she wants to go to the mall with friends or on a date with her boyfriend instead of spending every waking minute with him, there's going to be trouble.

I'm sorry your Mom was no help. I try to be my daughter's rock. I don't buy her love - I'm reliable, steady and have house rules to follow. I hope some day she sees that as more loving than the permissive type her father is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I knew this about my dad too. Our relationship was complicated because I was his surrogate wife (sans the sex).

We did this triangulation thing where I joined him in being mean to my mother but because I cared about my mom I'd try to side with her too. My childhood was spent with me trying to make them both happy and I failed miserably.
That really stresses my daughter out. :( I tried to keep her out of the middle. She was backing him up in his lies when she was 10 which was why I asked the court for a psych eval. I also got her a guardian ad litem who did a full custody evaluation. I didn't want her in the courtroom, on the stand or having to choose. I wanted the professionals to do it on her behalf. It was a roll of the dice in some ways but I felt pretty confident about my parenting skills and the home life I provided her. Turned out it was the best thing I could have done.
 

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I wondered if she'd ever see what he really is. I'm guessing when he starts acting pissy because she wants to go to the mall with friends or on a date with her boyfriend instead of spending every waking minute with him, there's going to be trouble.
Mine lived vicariously through me so he wanted details about my dates and my life. He pushed me hard to do all the things he didn't do which meant me doing things I didn't want to do. It began to affect my health. Started drinking at the age of 15. Severe migraine headaches at the ripe old age of 17. I was one ball of stress.

The only reason I knew he was an ass was how he treated my mother, my sister and other people. He actually treated me well (relatively speaking that is).
 

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EnjoliWoman,

I know you know this.. Sometimes we have to let them make their own decisions.

Kids from divorced families often want to get to know the other parent better or think that it is greener on the other side. This happened with a few kids I know.

Two of my nephews chose to go live with their father at about age 15. After a short honeymoon period they came to realize on their own why their mother divorced their father. They lived with him for about 2 years and then returned to live with their mother. They are now in their late 30’s and have nothing to do with their father.

My step-daughter decided to go live with her mother in Florida when she was about 15. That lasted one year. At the end of the year she apparently told her mother off for abandoning her and her brother when they were 8/9. She then returned home to New Mexico and has lived here since. She’s turning 24 this year. She speaks to her mother on the phone about 2-3 times a year.

Kids generally get it. But sometimes they have to find out the truth on their own.

Be supportive of her as it sounds like you are. Let her know that whatever she does she is not losing you.
 
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