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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi all,

Good old Gunthar here again (posted in several other areas)_......the rollercoaster saga of my marriage continues......I posted first about doom/gloom....then things got better....now they are back to old.

Long story short:

Caught wife having at least one EA...likely more. Text messages to friends and internet activity. Know one is our kids soccer coach (ouch). Lots of internet searching on catching your man, older men and younger women (this fellow is many years her senior), seduction, mind tricks, and she even looked up zodiac signs for love compatibility with him!!! She talks about him to me all the time.....says what does he mean by this....what does he mean by that.....always smiling when talking about him (cannot be more obvious......).

Now these EAs are mainly one sided (guy flirts and makes a few sexual comments while she does most of the wonder if and I think chasing......). I know from all the searches and texts that it has not gone full blown EA or PA....yet.

I have spent a month trusting her and letting her make the decision to find her heart and come back to me......well, after 1 month of waiting, two times almost punching this guy out (I see him at soccer games) I blew last night after I see her searches still continue where she seems to be plotting how to seduce him and still wondering about younger women/older men attraction.

Confronted her as others told me here.....firm.....said it needs to stop and focus on our marriage or I walk. Well, all she did was deny, say she has not crossed any lines even though she does have a slight attraction to him as he is a good coach and has done a lot for our kids (he coaches two of our kids teams).

She was mad I did not trust her getting out of her mid life crisis where self-esteem very low. She started to blame me for everything (Like my wife of old) and I shut it down.....which got her more angry. I began to walk away saying she needs to treat me with respect and she blew even further.

Well...we are likely back to square one. Not sure how tonight will go but I am ready to throw in the towel. I tried to make this marriage work but somehow it is always my fault for everything. I realized I was the classic nice guy which did contribute to where we are today and was doing counseling and reading to have a positive change in my life. It has worked so far but these EAs were killing me inside knowing they are ongoing reliving it on a daily basis and that my confronting her likely did not stop anything.

Any thoughts on where I should go next? Crossroads here as I spent a lot of time and effort over the past month only to regress. Is it normal to have these hurldes on raod to recovery? Do I try again and maybe in a different way or just end the F#$ing marriage?

One thing I was thinking of trying is go full blown 180...not sure if that would wake her up or push her away....

Thanks for reading
 

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Gunthar, I am sorry you are here but I am not understanding why you think the confrontation "regressed"? You took a stand. I think that is something to be proud of.

The wise ones will correct me if I am wrong, but you took the first step in saving your marriage, not destroying it. She is deep in the fog and her reaction is to be expected. Of course she is pissed. You are now holding her accountable and telling her that her behavior is unacceptable. You must think of her like a toddler throwing a huge fit!

I am assuming you are well versed in infidelity (and if not you should be so start reading up!). You put your foot down, now you need to back it up and be sure to follow through with actions!

Be patient but be firm. If you give an inch she is going to wrap seven miles of rope around your neck and hang you with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Gunthar, I am sorry you are here but I am not understanding why you think the confrontation "regressed"? You took a stand. I think that is something to be proud of.

The wise ones will correct me if I am wrong, but you took the first step in saving your marriage, not destroying it. She is deep in the fog and her reaction is to be expected. Of course she is pissed. You are now holding her accountable and telling her that her behavior is unacceptable. You must think of her like a toddler throwing a huge fit!

I am assuming you are well versed in infidelity (and if not you should be so start reading up!). You put your foot down, now you need to back it up and be sure to follow through with actions!

Be patient but be firm. If you give an inch she is going to wrap seven miles of rope around your neck and hang you with it.
Many thanks :smthumbup:

I greatly appreciate the positive feedback.....as you can imagine I do not get much of that lately.

I agree I need to follow-thru, just unsure how I should act.....maybe begin a 180 (started that a bit a few weeks ago being more independent and that seemed to work)
 

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When I first read about the 180, I felt it was manipulative in so much as the BS was being instructed to behave in a way in order to get their WS to behave in a certain way. Does that make sense? Either way, I just didn't "get it".

After reading more and experiencing more through other people's situations here, I realize that the 180 has nothing to do with the WS. It is about getting us, the BS, back on a path that is good for us. You don't need to act any particular way, just be true to yourself. Take good care of yourself and most importantly, respect yourself.

Even if your wife does a total turn around, you still need to be somewhat independent and seek happiness outside of her. We all need to seek happiness within ourselves. Both of us would have been in a much better place when all was exposed if we had of focused more on ourselves and not let our total selves rest in their hands.

You told her you had it, enough was enough. Continue on your "180" and do not give in. The next few days will let you know what your next step is. Some would say to insist upon transparency, no contact, etc. and I can't say that is a bad idea. If you do though and she refuses, you must take the next step and file for D? Kick her arse out? Something to show your bite is worse than your bark.

You are going to be fine no matter what. You will either save a marriage that was worth saving or get rid of one that wasn't. Either way, you are going to get what you deserve in the end...peace and happiness.

One more thing, don't ever stop being the nice guy. Just don't ever let that equate to allowing someone to disrespect you because that isn't what it is all about at all.
 

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G, this is probably not positive feedback, but I think its reality. It always seems that some guy who's wife chasing and banging other guys want to "save their marriage". When they start pursuing other guys, it means the don't love you and the marriage is reduced to holding on to your financial azz. Once they had other guys, while married to you, its never going to be the same. When she does you dirt, you don’t just say ''I forgive you and please don't hurt me anymore". All you're doing is giving her permission to do it to you again. Think of all the wasted time you’ve invested, and the pain you’re suffering by not taking a hard line approach. Get her straight, get her where she's sexually available to you, and only you, or let her hit the road and replace her with another chick.
 

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As fast as you can get Married Man Sex Life, download and get the book at amazon.com. Also, get Not Just Friends and MAKE your wife read it. You need to read it to. MMSL is just for you. Careful with the 180, people tend to leave parts of it out. Especially not showing anger and being a pr!ck.
 

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You know what you have to do. Let us know when you are ready to do it.

I'd complain to the athletic association you belong to too. He has to be tacitly encouraging it. Go have a short talk.

"My wife is flirting with you outrageously. You know it and you aren't discouraging it. I'm grabbing my two daughters out of your team so there is no more excuse for her to be around here. That's going to hurt my daughters, you POS. I will also be discussing this with the athletic association. Maybe the other husbands will want to know their wives are hanging around predators. Real good job there. I hope it was thrilling for you."
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks everyone.

Last night was bad.

She was a total b$%tch just like she was for many years. I tried to talk a bit in a calm, confident manner and she starts throwing sarcastic, belittling comments out there like candy on Halloween.

She says her walls are up now and that she cannot believe I threw this on her (wow.....all I did was challenge her on her EAs which she denies...one would think if you had nothing to hide that you could deal with it and move on).

She also started to do her old ploy and bring up every little thing I did wrong over the years....and I say little such as I was 10 minutes late to pickup my 9 year old Stepson from soccer practice (one out of 100 pickups as rarely ever happened) and she states that type of behavior shows I cannot be trusted as well as it greatly hurt my relationship with my stepson (who cannot even remember the incident at age 13 now).

I tried to remain calm and objective but that just made her more angry calling me a woman and a sissy that I cannot even fight correctly.

I still tried to reason with her and talk about yesterday how ti hurt my heart. She would say great.....are you happy now. Well, I am glad you are happy as I do not respect you anymore. Wow....she appears to have no remorse or feeling for how I feel on this.....no I am sorry I did this or that I did not realize it would impact you that much.....nothing other than what I did was wrong!

Well......things took a turn as I began to throw a little back her way saying I would rather be a woman with feelings than a huge prick (yeah....started to get a bit angry now).

Anyhow, we talked separation (I say no...just go divorce) and divorce. She says she is done. I think so as I do not think she can disconnect any past mistakes on my behalf even if I became the perfect husband/dad. I could be perfect for 3 years but then something triggers the past to come cascading into the present. With this looming in my future even if we did try I am not so sure it is worth the effort.

I think today could be D-Day as this evening I am going to once again try to talk to her (VERY hard to do when she cannot talk in a civil manner). If we cannot try to work it out and BOTH put effort behind then I think we are thru.

Any advice for me on the potential D-Day talk? I knew this was coming as we are very different people and I am surprised we made it this far.....but was still hoping we could work out our differences....I do love her....and love the family.
 

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Gunthar,
First, I like that screen name, very cool.

Unless you can get her to MC I think your marriage is in trouble.
You should approach the soccer coach and explain to him the impact he is having on your marriage. If he's a decent man he will limit his communication with her to a professional level.

You will need to start to institute the 180, she needs to start to respect you again. This will achieve respect.

You need to proceed with your decision to separate but move slowly and let it sink in.

Right now the thought of a fantasy life seems possible to her. She needs to realize its not. There will be details that ruin the fantasy.

Also start to monitor her in every way, you don't want her to think separation on the horizon is a free ticket to start a PA.

Sorry she is doing this to you, it's time to get tough, it's what she's begging for.
 

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Gunthar, it sounds to me like u are in a no win situation. I wouldn't even bother trying if I were u. You would do better spending your time sandpapering your eyeballs. Tonight will go exactly the same as last night. People like her, once u suss them out, u realise they will never change, never take responsibility for ANYTHING, and to even trying to discuss anything calmly is totally pointless. It will always finish with u being the person in the wrong, and you being the person making everyone's lives a misery. And you won't have been able to say even half of what you wanted to. Get rid of her. She will suck you emotionally dry. But watch out, educate yourself, because as an ex she will be even worse.

I know 2 people like this. One is my ex, together 11 years and father of my children. I didn't realise the extent to which I was manipulated until we had been split for 2 years. I had not experienced it to that degree before with someone I was that close to. We have been split 5+ years now and he still does absolutely everything possible to make things difficult for me. Even at the expense of his own children. But they have no clue because he is SO manipulative. He could tell you that black was white, and he would prove it! The other was a friend I lived with for 3 months, 16 years ago. She is still totally hostile towards me (she became my neighbour 11-12 years ago). He is quite mild compared to her.

I spent 11 years with him, the last 6 deeply unhappy, he was lazy, selfish, did nothing with the kids, but when I tried to discuss my unhappiness I came away from EVERY conversation wondering what was wrong with me and why I make everyone around me miserable. As an ex, after 6 months of split he said if we did not get back together the pleasantries would stop. And oh how they did. The next 5 years were of active and passive nastiness. Manipulating the kids against me...and so very subtle. I could not say anything without all being twisted to my problem and my fault. Everything he did, he accused me of doing. This is a trick they use because you cannot accuse them, as a reasonable human being, of exactly what they are accusing you of without feeling like a bickering 5 year old. 'You never let me speak'....reply: 'How can you say that, it is you that never let's me speak!' See, sounds stupid doesn't it. They don't want to listen and talk. They want to avoid, and will do so at ALL costs. Especially at the cost of you!

All is twisted with people like these that all the wrongs they have done to you, they accuse you of doing it to them. There is definitely some kind of mental issue with all this. All they do when confronted with an issue you bring is designed to turn it and to then accuse you. All designed to turn onto you so they don't have to take ANY responsibility or deal with anything that THEY might be doing.

My neighbour, she has an intrinsic right to all 6 gardens on our block. Our 1st problems (since the initial living with her for 3 months, 16 years ago) arose Over 11 years ago. She allowed her dog to wander where it liked. I was picking up her sh*t for 3 years while pregnant and with toddler, with baby and toddler, with toddler and young child. After 3 years I got fed up and threatened her with my daughters potty contents. It stopped. She was totally hostile to me after that and we haven't spoke since. Until 2 weeks ago. Her new dog was nipping my daughter and she was scared of it, her dog was left unleashed outside to growl and bark at the entrance to all 6 houses. Not a vicious dog, or a big dog, but it was nipping my daughter. And she was scared. I spoke to her, she screamed at me about all the terrible things I had done to her 16 years ago (she had actually helped herself to my food, my dog food, things out of my room, eventually when money went missing I confronted her and she screamed at me and jumped on me pulling my hair etc....16 years ago) thereby totally avoiding discussing at all the issue with my daughter being worried when coming home from school. 2 days ago she overheard my daughter saying to her friend that the dog bites. She started having a go at my daughter. Shouting at her. My daughter is 11. I got back from work, went to try and talk to her, she screamed at me through the door. I then went over when she was out in the garden, talking didn't work, so my intention was to tell her 'do that again and I will be very pissed off'. She jumped on me, pulling my hair. I ended up with a large gash to the head and I called the police. Another neighbour had to remove her from me. Yee haa! If this was America it would be white trash trailer park, or hillbilly redkneck county. Instead it is chav city down in the ghetto.

You will not get anywhere with your wife. Give up trying. It is emotionally draining, upsetting, and pointless. Accept she will always blame you for everything, be happy that you are the bad guy, feel sorry for her sick mind and deep unhappiness which created these deep problems, and move on to greener pastures.

Read up on manipulative behaviour traits. Read up on narcissism. Read up on avoidance of issues. Read up on projection of problems. All of this sounds just like your wife. Sorry. But the only way is out!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks for the comments dogman, greatly appreciated and I may try a few things you mention....and I do believe if we separate that gives her a clear path to turn one of her EAs into a PA (at least accelerate the endpoint if it happens)

Remains....wow.....very similar in a eerie sort of way. I still love her and know if we do divorce she will go from a full house with many kids and a husband to toss around (ha ha) to being alone.......this may kill her.

I agree it looks bleak. It is very emotionally draining. Funny thing is at first people really like her.....but once you get to know her people are turned off and distance themselves from her....which is why she goes thru friends/family like water.

Consequently, while I know I have contributed to our problems, I know it is not all me as she will state in our fights (and why I am the only person going to counseling now....not her).

I am begining to accept the end.......it is just so hard to throw away everything we tried to build together. My heart does break knowing this.......but as you say it will likely be for the best...for me....for the kids.
 

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What sucks as once she gets a taste of things to come.....and that means going PA with the coach and its not so much as she thought it would be, and the fantasy becomes reality and your chick is faced with the same crap she left... you know a guy that doesn't have time for her and only when he wants to get laid.....

Same old sh!t different guy she will see there is no future and come crawling back.

Are you prepared for that?

Any way what have you done to make the affair as inconvienent and as uncomfortable as possible?

a tactic that pushes her away but at the same time brings this fantasy out in the light of day.

exposing to couches wife /GF. Exposing to her family...coaches family, even her co workers. Some one she admires and looks up to to can have a profound effect on the affair.

Sure this can be looked at as vandictive but the way I see it, is a guy trying to protect his family.

I'd go nuclear and cut her off, expose and file....and reality check that shows her what is in her future.

Again this tactic is not vendictive but a husband doing damage control in telling others he will no longer share his wife and is looking for support.

A statement that shows he is ready to just let her go if she continues this behavior.

Sure, maybe if she found some one else the kids would not have to be so involved but that was her choice to sh!t so close to home!

You can't nice your way out of this, a tough love approach is the only way in getting her to think twice about her choices.

Filing for divorce is the only way to get her second guessing her dicision in following thru with this relationship.

Remember the divorce can always be withdrawn before it is finalized.

But for now the best thing here is to make the affair as inconvienent and as uncomfortable as possible...chances are when this is is no longer an exciting taboo adventure for the OM he will see the prizeis not worth the effort.

Once the A is exposed then both of them can no longer sneak away to make out in the mini van with out being noticed.

In fact after the "prize" your WW will be left in the wind.....either way you have gotten the OM out of the picture and an influence that is no longer *infecting* your marriage.

Once OM is gone then you may have a chance, but until then you are in a losing battle and can not compete with this crap.

So do your best in getting OM out of the picture thru exposure and naming him in the divorce paper...no one likes being part of a law suit, especially when all the other husband don't want ther kids around the POS!

This tactic can be argued that all this is on your old lady, but the fact is until OM is out of the picture you are not an option any more and rainbows and unicorns rule your chicks world!
 

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Exposure , especially to the men's wife/gf is where you need to go next, and without any heads up warnings or threats to your wife about it.

You must destroy the fantasy.
 

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I would not have waited a couple of months on this. As soon as I saw this inclination I would have dealt with it ASAP. For starters this guy would not longer be my kids soccer coach. I would insist on my wife going verifiably NC with him. And so on.

Never let this stuff gain momentum. Sliding friction is much smaller than static friction. Do not be afraid to act. Many men are afraid to act, because they fear that they will not get approval or validation for their actions which is sadly absurd.
 

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be careful about throwing around threats like you change or I walk. Only do that if you are indeed prepared to follow through. If you say you are going to walk and you don't you lose a little more respect.
 
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Thanks for the comments dogman, greatly appreciated and I may try a few things you mention....and I do believe if we separate that gives her a clear path to turn one of her EAs into a PA (at least accelerate the endpoint if it happens)

Remains....wow.....very similar in a eerie sort of way. I still love her and know if we do divorce she will go from a full house with many kids and a husband to toss around (ha ha) to being alone.......this may kill her.

I agree it looks bleak. It is very emotionally draining. Funny thing is at first people really like her.....but once you get to know her people are turned off and distance themselves from her....which is why she goes thru friends/family like water.

Consequently, while I know I have contributed to our problems, I know it is not all me as she will state in our fights (and why I am the only person going to counseling now....not her).

I am begining to accept the end.......it is just so hard to throw away everything we tried to build together. My heart does break knowing this.......but as you say it will likely be for the best...for me....for the kids.
The thing is, not only does it drain you emotionally but it drains ALL happiness from you as well.

I had accepted my lot with my kids dad, family was extremely important to me and I didn't want my kids growing up in a broken home. I had accepted that I'd be unhappy for the rest of my life. And then he did something totally unforgivable, thank god for that! I kicked him out, very scary to then be on my own but I did it anyway. I didn't see it at the time as my way out, but it was. 1 month it took for me to get over him and not miss him anymore. And I was happy.

The fact that friends and family have a high turn over for her says it all. The fact that you are in counselling says it all. And you won't realise the extent to which you have been manipulated til you are out of there. Only you know when you are ready to call it a day though. As a wife she is behaving a very poor second rate, and you deserve so much better.
 

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Remains....wow.....very similar in a eerie sort of way. I still love her and know if we do divorce she will go from a full house with many kids and a husband to toss around (ha ha) to being alone.......this may kill her.
What keeps more White Knights in a living hell than anything else is constantly rescuing a damsel in distress. In the end, damsel will break you, kill your horse, and sell you armor for scrap metal.
 

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What keeps more White Knights in a living hell than anything else is constantly rescuing a damsel in distress. In the end, damsel will break you, kill your horse, and sell you armor for scrap metal.
....although I have learned a lot from this site by doing a lot of reading over the past year.....this straightforward statement just beat me over the head, while making my heart stop...........this is how I have come to feel over my inappropriate friendship that caused so much stress to everyone around me......clearly defines it all......nothing would ever be enough for my young friend. Ugghhhhh.....the truth can hurt badly at times.

..and wouldn't you know it, my wife of 30 years is not a damsel in distress (totally the opposite of my young friend in every way), so I have been a white knight always looking for validation from someone that my spouse could never honestly be.....boy, a lifetime of education received in the last 60 seconds.

Now....I feel like I need a couple of stiff drinks and contemplate what I do now, while watching MU get the snot beat out of them yet again. Thanks Fvstringpicker, I owe you bigtime for that comment.
 
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