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@Diana7 please tell me what you don't like about being in the EU and why the UK is so much better off out of it... I still have to hear a convincing argument...
I am a remainer but have to accept that 52% of the public want to leave, so be it. In fact we may all be pleasantly surprised. Make Britain again LOL
 

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So you think we should nationalise everything again, how successful has that been in the past, created waste and misuse of budgets, etc. The reality is the NHS has no choice but to deal with private sector whether it is big pharma, healthcare companies, etc. How it is done is what matters, what policies, procedures are in place to ensure the NHS gets value for money from all they deal with.

YOu cannot have it every way, someone has to pay for the welfare state that includes the taxes of all.

I live in a country where there is no safety net at all, you don't work, you simply do not eat. I am tired of the Brits moaning about how hard life is, yet many don't work, have too many kids which they expect the state to take care of. Where is the accountability on behalf of citizens?
 

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I am a remainer but there are plenty of reasons why people want to leave the EU.

The UK has contributed billions into running the machinery of the EU. Did you know that fat cat European MPs (MEPs) elected from all member states receive a hefty monthly salary of around Euro8700. I know one personally and they do ****** all, this is on top of their current political position in their home country.

The EU bureaucracy is crazy. Harmonization of legislation across the board has upset many member states as they lose sovereignty over their own regulatory structures. For example why should some bureaucrat in the EU tell us how to manage our borders re immigration.

Germany, France and the UK have been the main funders and end up supporting financially weak states such as Portugal, Spain, etc some whose socialist policies led to major financial collapses.

I could go on.
The countries in the EU agreed to give up some of their sovereignty to be part of a common "union". What's the issue with that concept? You might not like some or all of what that union does but giving up some sovereinty to be part of a collective "union" of some kind is very common (treaties do this too) and pretty well accepted. The US is also an example of this with states giving up far more sovereinty than EU countries. Same with some level of redistribution of wealth to poorer areas. Much more extreme within the US with the states and most wealthy countries give financial support to poor countries. I guess that this all works only if there is an assumption that you have a common bond. I also don't think 105k is a shocking salary for a representative. US senators and reps make a lot more than that.

If these are your arguments then i think it's a very weak case.
 

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The countries in the EU agreed to give up some of their sovereignty to be part of a common "union". What's the issue with that concept? You might not like some or all of what that union does but giving up some sovereinty to be part of a collective "union" of some kind is very common (treaties do this too) and pretty well accepted. The US is also an example of this with states giving up far more sovereinty than EU countries. Same with some level of redistribution of wealth to poorer areas. Much more extreme within the US with the states and most wealthy countries give financial support to poor countries. I guess that this all works only if there is an assumption that you have a common bond. I also don't think 105k is a shocking salary for a representative. US senators and reps make a lot more than that.

If these are your arguments then i think it's a very weak case.
It comes back to how we see the UK, whether it is like a flat/apartment or like an isolated farmhouse. In the former, we have to accept some compromise, that is just reality. It is not what we would prefer. But, Leavers do not see there would be any issue and that Remainers just want to compromise because they are daft.
 

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So you think we should nationalise everything again, how successful has that been in the past, created waste and misuse of budgets, etc. The reality is the NHS has no choice but to deal with private sector whether it is big pharma, healthcare companies, etc. How it is done is what matters, what policies, procedures are in place to ensure the NHS gets value for money from all they deal with.

YOu cannot have it every way, someone has to pay for the welfare state that includes the taxes of all.

I live in a country where there is no safety net at all, you don't work, you simply do not eat. I am tired of the Brits moaning about how hard life is, yet many don't work, have too many kids which they expect the state to take care of. Where is the accountability on behalf of citizens?
we agree... personally, I wouldn't have a problem paying more taxes to support a properly functioning NHS... is this socialism? I think it's common sense...
 

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It is quite common for Leavers to claim to have supported remain, but to have been persuaded by events.
Most leavers' vote in the North was a protest vote at the referendum... now they are fed up that Brexit is not happening, so they switch to the Tories, ignoring the fact that they are going to be a lot poorer with Brexit... so, the rich get richer and the poor get... :wink2:
 

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Most leavers' vote in the North was a protest vote at the referendum... now they are fed up that Brexit is not happening, so they switch to the Tories, ignoring the fact that they are going to be a lot poorer with Brexit... so, the rich get richer and the poor get... :wink2:
As a vote against modernity and Corbyn, it makes far more sense to me.
 

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I think this is really go to affect sole traders and other small businesses really badly.

One small example was when I was in the UK it was very easy to sell books to the rest of the EU without additional costs. Also, I planned events a for a group located in Belgium. No special issues with taxes or movement of money that required special legal or accounting advice. imagine small companies just starting out having to pay a a couple GBP100 just for advice. I'm sure trade will go down as a result.

since I've been back I've been selling my husband's comic books. I said I would ship to Canada. But when I discovered how much the cost was to ship. And then spector of tariffs. and then trying to find a bank account that doesn't cost much to accept Canadian dollars ....... these are real killers to free enterprise. It is definitely NOT free.
 

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The federal government is much stronger ("oppressive" if you want to look at it that way) than the EU and became that way much faster than the EU. No comparison. With the original founders of the US, states rights were meant to be very important. But states quickly ceded their rights to the federal government. States have far less autonomy than European "states". No comparison.

I think that eventually the US will have serious movements to break apart. Not wishing for this to happen but I think it will. Much easier for the UK to decide to leave the EU. Let's talk about "oppressive" when California or Texas, or whoever wants to leave the US. When the South wanted to cede from the union, there was a war. UK is leaving and there is no war. What are you trying to say about "oppressive"???
The central EU has essentially neutered national governments and courts. Very much like what we have in the USA, where federal courts can over-rule state level courts.

Relatives of mine in the UK very much dislike their laws being overturned by the EU court. They dislike large trucks on their roads which do not meet UK standards and their drivers who likewise don't understand UK laws. There are many other complaints I've heard from relatives about how they are ruled from Brussels but have no true representation there.

Not all is bad. The free trade was good for everyone. Simplified border crossing was convenient though it also allowed a lot of undesirables in through weak controls who then had free run of the EU.

The USA didn't get far from the original intent until the Civil War. Up until then it was considered that any state had the right to leave the union. The argument for that is very logical. However, the war proved otherwise. I don't believe any state will be allowed to leave the USA peacefully. The transformation in the USA took about 100 years from founding to the civil war, but the EU within a couple of decades made the same metamorphosis to unresponsive central government running roughshod over the member states.

I, too, believe the USA is headed to fracture. The hard left is pushing as hard as they can. Their open talk this week is using the National Guard to enforce gun confiscation. That is actual elected Democrats saying publicly they see it as what they would do if necessary. The sprint to progressive leftism is likely to cause another civil war.
 

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The central EU has essentially neutered national governments and courts. Very much like what we have in the USA, where federal courts can over-rule state level courts.

Relatives of mine in the UK very much dislike their laws being overturned by the EU court. They dislike large trucks on their roads which do not meet UK standards and their drivers who likewise don't understand UK laws. There are many other complaints I've heard from relatives about how they are ruled from Brussels but have no true representation there.

Not all is bad. The free trade was good for everyone. Simplified border crossing was convenient though it also allowed a lot of undesirables in through weak controls who then had free run of the EU.

The USA didn't get far from the original intent until the Civil War. Up until then it was considered that any state had the right to leave the union. The argument for that is very logical. However, the war proved otherwise. I don't believe any state will be allowed to leave the USA peacefully. The transformation in the USA took about 100 years from founding to the civil war, but the EU within a couple of decades made the same metamorphosis to unresponsive central government running roughshod over the member states.

I, too, believe the USA is headed to fracture. The hard left is pushing as hard as they can. Their open talk this week is using the National Guard to enforce gun confiscation. That is actual elected Democrats saying publicly they see it as what they would do if necessary. The sprint to progressive leftism is likely to cause another civil war.
You on drugs, boy?

Very clearly the UK is not ruled from Brussels. If you have trelatives who told you that, they are either liars of idiots.

Some Scots are campaigning for an independence referendum. They can only have one if the UK Government say so as they are not independent. The UK had a referendum because they are.

If you find that difficult or confusing, look things up on Google.
 

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Very much like what we have in the USA, where federal courts can over-rule state level courts.
It's the GOP that's pissing on states' rights. Trump is trying to upend all of CA's environmental laws. The federal government also dictated tax law to the state of New York so that state lawmakers could not make up for the loss in tax credits that it used to have for property owners.

States's rights is what the GOP has used to curb reproductive rights. It was definitely used to keep slavery going.
 

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Yes we have been portrayed as being 'thick racists' and that they know what is best for us, how arrogant is that?
They had under estimated how angry and fed up many were, and now they have had their comeuppance. :grin2:
Now you understand the Tea Party movement 10 years or so ago and the Trump movement of the last 4 years. Very many people I know have disconnected from public discourse about politics because they are constantly berated and slandered simply for being conservative (which means wanting small government not a strong father figure government as some seem to believe).

A friend recently posted he was "smeared as a Trump supporter". That is, he found it very insulting to be called a Trump supporter when he isn't. He is a progressive liberal, so there is nothing more deplorable to him than a Trump supporter.

This is why polls got it wrong in the 2016 election and are getting it wrong now. We deplorables are quietly keeping our powder dry but will be heard on election day.
 

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This is why polls got it wrong in the 2016 election and are getting it wrong now.
This country has outgrown the electoral college. It was started so that slaveowners could count their non voting slaves --3/5 of a vote for every slave man towards federal elections. Seems pretty grim.

Trump lost the popular vote. He is not doing the will of the people.
 

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Discussion Starter #75
Too funny. After the 2016 elections it was:

The stock market is gonna crash
Civil war is gonna break out
Your life is over now

What we are seeing is:

Booming economy
Lower unemployment
Wages rising
 

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Too funny. After the 2016 elections it was:

The stock market is gonna crash
Civil war is gonna break out
Your life is over now

What we are seeing is:

Booming economy
Lower unemployment
Wages rising
We are still in the EU, but we have already had to borrow enormous amounts to money comparable to 2008 to stabilise the economy and the pound has dropped considerably. Companies such as my own are withdrawing investment from the UK.

This is a constant theme. It would be very reasonable to suggest that any change will take adaptation and initially there will be an economic shock as we realign, but new industries will develop to take advantage of the new circumstances. There is no need to make things up and when people it is suggests you do not really believe in your argument.
 

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Most leavers' vote in the North was a protest vote at the referendum... now they are fed up that Brexit is not happening, so they switch to the Tories, ignoring the fact that they are going to be a lot poorer with Brexit... so, the rich get richer and the poor get... :wink2:
I don't agree with that statement.
 

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The after-the-referendum documentaries showed that many Brits regret voting to leave the EU. They didn't know - and weren't told - about the downsides to doing so, and were mostly sold a nationalistic pile of crap (IMO).
 

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The after-the-referendum documentaries showed that many Brits regret voting to leave the EU. They didn't know - and weren't told - about the downsides to doing so, and were mostly sold a nationalistic pile of crap (IMO).
I really do not thing many people have changed their minds.

Brexit was a more moderate thing (give up our power in the EU) before the referendum, and now it has been redefined as an extreme thing (perhaps give up Norther Ireland, our power in the EU, access to the single market) so it has lost some support.

I am sure @Diana7 can confirm most are happy to stick with it?
 

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The countries in the EU agreed to give up some of their sovereignty to be part of a common "union". What's the issue with that concept? You might not like some or all of what that union does but giving up some sovereinty to be part of a collective "union" of some kind is very common (treaties do this too) and pretty well accepted. The US is also an example of this with states giving up far more sovereinty than EU countries. Same with some level of redistribution of wealth to poorer areas. Much more extreme within the US with the states and most wealthy countries give financial support to poor countries. I guess that this all works only if there is an assumption that you have a common bond. I also don't think 105k is a shocking salary for a representative. US senators and reps make a lot more than that.

If these are your arguments then i think it's a very weak case.
Such a giving up of sovereignty only works if all members follow the rules in terms of economic and fiscal policies. These have been set out, e.g. keep inflation at a particular level. However, some members mismanage their economy and the more stable states end up baling them out.
It is difficult and neigh impossible to have commonality if different members have different political ideologies, some believe in curtailing the welfare system, others spend spend spend and have bloated civil services, etc.
They have had many years to sort it out, but the amount of waste within the supranational architecture is appalling. USA is different as you have a 'common culture' EU is very disparate in this way. I still think we would have been better off staying in, especially for the future of our young and with Industry 4.0 etc things may be made more manageable. But there you have it.
 
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