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Not so fast with your red pen there Barney Fife!

Your wife's limitation with hands is on where YOU want to put your hands. You can still use your hands to give her a back rub, legs, and feet. The idea is that you make her to want you to use your hands in other places but you don't.
I own a massage table that has logged a lot of hours. After 90 minutes, you run out of other places to use your hands.

How long do you wait to see if it worked? I might be impatient, but 35 years seems maybe enough?
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
I own a massage table that has logged a lot of hours. After 90 minutes, you run out of other places to use your hands.

How long do you wait to see if it worked? I might be impatient, but 35 years seems maybe enough?
My wife once told me that she feels completely satisfied after eating dove chocolates with almonds. So much so that she does not desire anything else, including me. So @Cletus how many packs of Dove Chocolates do I need to buy in order to give them to my wife and make her desire me? Here is the answer: "Honey I really like Dove Chocolates too and wish there were some in the house. Too bad there are none. Would you like a back massage instead?"

So @Cletus if you and your wife have a routine that leaves her satisfied. The original idea is to break up that routine and remove something. Sounds like your massage table is about to have an accident. Remove a few screws so that it no longer works and claim you will take it somewhere to get it fixed at an imaginary repair shop that needs to order a part that is currently on back order due to current events. No telling when you will get your massage table back. Then suggest taking a bath together with that new shower massager you got...

:)

Badsanta

PS: If you reply that you have a two-person shower/spa that has already logged infinite touchless shower massages, I am going to stop doing your homework!
 

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PS: If you reply that you have a two-person shower/spa that has already logged infinite touchless shower massages, I am going to stop doing your homework!
Jetted jacuzzi, actually.

I appreciate what you are trying to say. There is only ONE thing I can remove from our sex life, because that's all their is. We are down to once every three or four weeks now because I have more or less done exactly that.

Archimedes may have been able to move the world with a suitably long lever, but even he needed a lever. Just like you can't buy for someone who has everything, you cannot take away from someone who desires nothing. Or at least, when the only thing you can take away is the only thing you are allowed to do, it becomes a binary choice to do that or nothing.

In my wife's case, it's not about expanding horizons, it is a case of actual dislike. Not "I have no interest in that", but more "I actively dislike that and want you to stop".

So you didn't fail at the homework, you were asked to provide a closed-form integral for x^x.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
So you didn't fail at the homework, you were asked to provide a closed-form integral for x^x.
@Cletus why is it that when people are online that all their problems seem solvable? But when you look at people's problems that you know in real life, it is immediately obvious that nothing can done to help them.

One more try! According to Perel you should brag to your wife about being hit on by other women at the grocery store. Especially if it happens to be a true story!
 

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I think she is on to something. Based on my own marriage, those around me and here on TAM, I do think that happy marriages and great sex lifelong sex are exceptions not rules. Having children often kills or at least hurts both: love and lust, when parents are overwhelmed and resentments build up, and boy we know it is hard to get rid of these.
That’s why it is easier to keep spark on for people who get together later in life, post-children, post-divorce.
At that point of my life-at 50 and divorcing (happily) I do not believe in long term love or sexual attraction as a norm. They do exist as an exception. Which is totally opposite of what most of us and society is expecting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
I think she is on to something. Based on my own marriage, those around me and here on TAM, I do think that happy marriages and great sex lifelong sex are exceptions not rules. Having children often kills or at least hurts both: love and lust, when parents are overwhelmed and resentments build up, and boy we know it is hard to get rid of these.
That’s why it is easier to keep spark on for people who get together later in life, post-children, post-divorce.
At that point of my life-at 50 and divorcing (happily) I do not believe in long term love or sexual attraction as a norm. They do exist as an exception. Which is totally opposite of what most of us and society is expecting.
In the two books I just read, there was one portion that discussed that getting married and having children involved an emotional transformation that could be described as a "total annihilation of self." I think that is so true. Often as parents our names are even changed to that of "so and so's mom or dad" and we loose the name that was previously given to us.

My wife was recently describing to me how now is the first time since our first child was born (the oldest is now grown with a car and job) that she is getting to start being herself again, and doing things just for herself. She describes doing so as something that requires overcoming a lot of guilt so that she can now be much more selfish with her time.

A good example is the kids unexpectedly inviting friends over to the house which kind of ruins the chances of quality time for a husband and wife. Nothing like foreplay being interrupted by a knock on the (locked) bedroom door by a clueless teenager asking what the plans are for lunch and trying to introduce you to a new friend that is standing there right beside them. ...and something about the garage is broken, you need to come see (which you later discover that your teenager ran over an aluminum scooter when parking the car in the garage)!

...OK back to rekindling the sparks of Romance! ...not going to happen!

So now my wife yells at the kids that no one is allowed over on the weekends regardless. Our kids can go to someone else's home if they want, but no one comes over. Weekends are now MOM's time to enjoy the house without any guests around!

Now on the weekends my wife and I find ourselves out on dates or a hike. We will stop and wonder where the kids are, and it is nice that sometimes we both have no idea where they went or what they are doing (although they are just a phone call away where ever they are). We joke and laugh about how just a year ago we would freak out by not knowing where the kids are, but now it is nice. They have their own lives and now we are getting ours back little by little!

I can totally understand how most couples just can't survive that romantically. It is near impossible!

Badsanta
 

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Discussion Starter · #67 · (Edited)
...and something about the garage is broken, you need to come see (which you later discover that your teenager ran over an aluminum scooter when parking the car in the garage)!

All of that going on while my wife and I were trying to get in the mood for quality time together. This is the type of stuff that married couples all have to somehow overcome and keep romance alive.
 

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I'm about half way through Mating in Captivity. I'm relatively certain it isn't going to be useful for me except to understand someone else's perspective. I always felt more desire the closer I was emotionally. The less "distance" I had in my relationship, the more I wanted to get hot and sweaty with her. The more comfortable I was, the more I felt empowered to explore and experiment. I have always considered the bedroom and body (and marriage) to be a playground and not a prison. I am finding it very hard to relate to anything in the book at all.

I remember from WAY back a Playboy article (yeah, yeah, I know...) about how a smart woman would take a man to a party where he could be surrounded by beautiful women, then take him home and be the one to bang his brains out.
When I came back from my bachelor party the ex and I were busy for most of the next day.... Oddly enough the strip club didn't really do anything for me (not a twitch) but as soon as I was home I was ready to go.

And I think she does a good job at talking about desire in a marriage because it’s definitely not normal or natural to desire your spouse of 20+ years.
I'm kind of broken or backwards I guess. The only thing that ever really deterred me from approaching the ex was rejection.

My brother is similar. He laughed about how the doctor had told him to stop smoking because "It'll make your pecker stop working" while him and my sister-in-law "go at it like teenagers". I can't really think of many people more alike or more connected.

This is an interesting one as I did read the chapters on parenting over the weekend. What I digested from this portion of her books is that the parent that serves as the primary caregiver for the children in a marriage tends to be the one that looses all their desire for sex with a spouse.
After a long day of diaper changes, going to the park, playing with the kids, cooking and cleaning, etc, I always wanted to be frisky with the mom. The mindset went something like "I've enjoyed spending time with the kids and it has reinforced my love and connection to the mother so I want to express this in a pleasurable way with her so let's go play".
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
I'm about half way through Mating in Captivity. I'm relatively certain it isn't going to be useful for me except to understand someone else's perspective. I always felt more desire the closer I was emotionally. The less "distance" I had in my relationship, the more I wanted to get hot and sweaty with her. The more comfortable I was, the more I felt empowered to explore and experiment. I have always considered the bedroom and body (and marriage) to be a playground and not a prison. I am finding it very hard to relate to anything in the book at all.
Not everyone is the same. Generally speaking relationships need a healthy amount of personal space along with well developed emotional differentiation in order to maintain the joys of being close over the long term. Otherwise you have a situation that may be more like emotional codependence lurking underneath the surface. That can get rather unstable and turbulent.

Reflecting on that book, I still find the notion of embracing the idea of a third and ideas of exploring nonmonogamy as something I personally don't understand. In my opinion that is like playing emotional peek-a-boo with one's fear of abandonment just to get the euphoria of "here I am" when you realize your partner still chooses you. Either that or people's severe lack of self confidence creates the illusion of a third person since everyone wants to be a better version of themselves that is not realistic. So you can only explore that via proxy somehow or something.

The one part of that book that I remember is that everyone's sexuality is not a set of fair democratic rules that are always going to be fair and easy to understand. Combined with other readings it is something that perhaps pushes our personal development forwards. Allowing yourself to get too comfortable tends to be the beginning of the end for most relationships!
 

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I really enjoyed her Ted talk about the topic and I 100% agree with her. I haven’t read her book. I will post the ted talk in case people want to watch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
There is no neediness in desire… that one hit home for me.
That is something I think a lot of people here on TAM could spend some time thinking about! Is desire something that makes you needy or is it something that you enjoy and are grateful for feeling it.

I haven't watched her TED talk, but I will watch it now!
 

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Discussion Starter · #75 ·
I really enjoyed her Ted talk about the topic and I 100% agree with her. I haven’t read her book. I will post the ted talk in case people want to watch.
I just watched that and a few things jumped out at me. I'll preface my thoughts with a mental illustration. Imagine walking in nature and coming upon a turtle that is very active and up to something interesting. As you get closer, the turtle becomes aware of your presence and promptly disappears into its shell or quickly vanishes beneath the surface into the murky depths of a pond.

That mental illustration in my opinion is what happens with our own imaginations when we are in the presence of a spouse. We shift our efforts instead into reading our spouse while disconnecting with our own self's imagination.

Esther used these words, "a crisis in desire is a crisis of imagination." I think that is so true as we all need to develop and have a strong connection with our own imagination within the context of what creates an erotic reaction. She goes on to describe that eroticism needs some type of distance or bridge to cross that has a sense of discovery and adventure. Once you combine that with the notion that eroticism is also about our ability to stay connected with ourselves in the presence of our spouse, there you have it. We need to stay connected to our ability to imagine in a way that is erotic so that we can share that with a spouse.

Now imagine coming up to a turtle in nature that is very active and up to something. As you get closer the turtle is aware of you but does not shy away or withdraw. Instead the turtle is excited to share with you the idea of something it is discovering.
 
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