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You mean that females enjoy sex as much as males do. There is still a stigma against females. Lots of people do not judge me for playing sex games in college but when it pertains to a female, it is quite the opposite.

Tbh, I do not know the number of women I have had sex with, because I never counted. Why should a female not worry about males being promiscuous as well, does that not tell females that that particular partner might cheat on them also. What about males with a high count? We have more derogatory terms for females who enjoy sex, funny how that works. There is a perception that a female is only worth how some males preceives how virginal she is.

Also, most of my female cousins make twice what their husbands make. They are the bread winner of the family. Most of my female cousins break the six figure mark when it comes to salary. The men that they are with have to be confident in themselves because they do earn less and play more of a supportive role. I make more than my gf, and if I do ever get married, I hope she can support my career since it has more potential.

Males complain that females are slvtty, but when they have sexual hang-ups because of how they are judged, like not giving bj's, then they are worthless. Reason why some females are sexually dysfunctional, and it boils down to insecurity.

Calling a female a slvt because there is a threat against one's own ego that they should be the best sex partner, have the biggest c0ck, and do everything they did in the past with another sexual partner. If they do not, then they feel as their SO does not love them. For instance anal. Because you did something in the past, you owe me now, what a loving sentiment, even if anal make cause discomfort.
Thank you so much for this post, Mr. Fisty.
 

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I do wonder though, which comes back to my hurt / how many feminist articles make me feel...is how you handle reading those that Mock your beliefs or things you hold dear? ..does this not happen to you? ... what do you do with it??
Of course it happens to me.

SA, I hold the ideals of feminism dear. How do you not see that the things that YOU are saying about feminism and feminists is precisely the kind of "mockery" that you think feminists are saying about you?

I deal with it by thinking critically about it. Does their claim have merit? Is it logical? Is the tone of 'mockery' that I perceive really intended as mockery of my beliefs or is it someone else simply expressing their own feelings? Where is the author's angst, anger, etc, coming from?

Usually, I find that the criticism/mockery isn't logical or reasonable. Often laughably so. Usually I can shrug it off or laugh at the absurdity. Sometimes it gets under my skin. When it does, it's because it's coming from someone I want to respect. In those cases I end up ranting to my husband and then letting it go.

But I have learned the hard way - through years and years of online debate - that just because a contrary opinion upsets me doesn't mean that the person offering it is trying to upset me. That's how I came to be not really a Christian anymore. It used to upset me when atheists mocked Christianity and Christians. I used to get defensive. I used to want to believe (and therefore did believe) the negative stereotypes about atheists that Christians like to cling to. But at some point I realized I was being dishonest with myself. I wasn't really giving due consideration to their points of view or their arguments. I was projecting bad motives and "mockery" onto a lot of what was not actually intended as such. Sure, there are some jerk atheists. But there are also a lot of jerk Christians. And some of that mockery comes from a place of being hurt by those they are mocking.

Just continually give yourself feedback that THIS doesn't matter somehow... how does this not splinter your mind in regards to the movement.. Remember YOU have a group - and you said a TON of them who look through your eyes.. that you resonate with....I have to resort to google & seek different articles to counteract the ones that shake me up and make me feel more alienated.. Maybe IF I read more than the ones that have bothered me or belittled my way of life , or beliefs.. I would feel more like you... the movement has brought with it.. so many radicals that it has tainted the view of outsiders.. I am not alone in feeling this way by any means..
Wait... so you're telling me that you've NEVER read a feminist article that you didn't feel was belittling you or your way of life?

Honestly, SA.... I have a hard time believing that. Either you've really not read many or, IMHO, you're projecting onto the articles something that isn't there.

There's a reason we call it a prejudice. Are you sure you're not pre-judging?

I have sat with my oldest christian son & his roommate -and they have shared their experiences with feminists on campus.. I distinctly recall them looking me in the eyes telling me how these women have no use for men like them.. these are not controlling brow beating men by any means... something within their messages are turning the hearts of many men away.. I look up to these guys..I think highly of them... I had no way of counteracting or trying to make them believe these women that made them Feel that way... were all wrong, that they were misunderstood.. was it wrong for me to trust my own son.. . he has rubbed up against MORE within a group that goes against his beliefs also.. that's all I can take from that..
So, you're going to base your opinion of the entirety of feminism on hearsay you heard from a college student about college students?

SA, if you can't see how foolish that is than I don't know what to tell you. You can't judge those young women based on how your son told you he thinks they feel about him. Just because you trust him doesn't mean that he's 100% right about those young women.

I mean, come on. How would you like it if people judged you like that? Can we please do a little bit of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Another question I have is.. it doesn't appear to me , while we are always uplifting our side that many feminists are looking to understand the man's side..
There are actually many male feminists. So, pretty sure they understand the "men's side."

Look, these are such tired old stereotypes. Feminists are constantly empathizing with men. Trying to help men. Trying to understand and work with men. Just look at the HeForShe campaign.

We have fathers, brothers, husbands and sons too, SA. FFS. We empathize with men all time.

[qute]I don't always like what they say either I hate the fact many men have lost the want to marry today and feels it's best for them.. ...arguing with them why they are wrong will not win their hearts to us.. if they feel heard by us and understood.. it has more of a chance for some constructive dialog...[/quote]

So, we have to agree with these men in order to win them to our side? But then if we agree with them, we're basically joining their side. So... that's not really winning them over, is it? That's called surrendering.

I'm not going to agree that someone is right and stop arguing my point of view or my position just because I want someone to like me. If logic and facts proved their interpretation was the correct one, then they can present the logic and facts and win ME over.

Look. I don't actually think men and women are at war with one another. And the truth is that even on this issue, there isn't one, unified "male position." There are plenty of men who disagree that men are not wanting marriage and plenty more that disagree as to why.

So, the idea that feminists are just refusing to empathize with men and that's why we disagree on this topic is illogical.

I feel this is what I am missing too.. I don't feel understood by the majority of feminists .. but I am expected to just conform anyway.. who does that..
Nobody expects you to conform, SA. Disagreeing with the things you say, and telling you why we think you're wrong is not requiring conformity. It's disagreeing.

It's this kind of sentiment that makes me think it's just a matter of prejudice for you. You're extremely defensive. It reminds me of Christians claiming they're being persecuted because of gay marriage.

If just the heart of choice or equality was the main topic of feminism... it would never be an issue with me.. at all.. but it delves so far too much , the topics on this forum - into these splinter groups vying for my mind... I don' agree with "sl** walk"... I feel as women, we should dress more moderately.. do conservative feminists feel this way ?? am I allowed to feel this way and still think I am one.. someone will say I am a bad one.. judging women ! this gets very tiring that I have to suspend how I personally think anytime I present myself on this forum - then told I can still be a feminist !
You don't have to agree with any of it to not be judgmental about it.

I've not been around her a long time, so maybe I just haven't seen it happen. But what I have seen is definitely not anyone getting upset with you for how you live your life or even for what you believe.

What I have gotten upset about, and what I've seen others get upset about, is the things you say about feminists. You don't have to say or imply that we're all wh8res and slvts. How can you not see that thinking of us all in such a derogatory way is insulting to us?

You seem to me to be doing a lot of the things you are accusing others of doing.

Why can't you just accept and believe that not all feminists - indeed, not even most feminists - are these terrible, hateful people? You don't have to agree with feminism to do that.

I see many "camps" in feminist ... I can never tell which type of feminist Is before me ...will it be an Amy Glass who must remind me how stupid I am, how stupid my husband is to allow me to stay home.. or a Jessica Valenti that feels (and has written a book to explain it) if you want or choose to save yourself for one man...this is hating other women...I bought the book by the way.. even though I felt it very much belittled such women... She has some good points, things I can agree with .. but still I felt nothing but an outsider - I don't resonate with her way of thinking at all... and she IS surely a well respected feminist. isn't she??
Jessica Valenti? No, not really. *sigh*

Why do you need to tell which kind of feminist you're talking to? Why do you need to label us? Why can't you just read our words and deal with what we say, when we say it? Why do you need to judge me according to whether I agree with Valenti or Grass or whoever?

Why do you feel the need to do that?

I couldn't tell what the feminist viewpoint was from the book exactly?
I don't understand your question? I think the gist of the book is that Jesus was a feminist because of how he treated women. It's not all based on one verse of the Bible.

and I am happy you pointed it out to me.. noone else ever has on here.. or I would not have made my original comment. you open up a whole new area of interest .. but still I have no idea where your group is coming from either or how you deal with those who DON'T feel as you do.. what you do with it ?
Again, I don't understand your question. I deal with those who don't agree with me in various ways depending on the circumstances and the person. Some I debate with. Some I ignore.

My journey to feminism started out because of my Christian beliefs. I was very active in the church. All my life. I studied the Bible deeply - like, seminary level stuff. But I was told by my church that I wasn't allowed to teach the Bible or preach to men. Just because I'm a woman and that's how they interpreted some Bible verses. I didn't agree with how they interpreted things. I got interested in studying it and came across Christians for Biblical Equality. They aren't specifically feminist but there's a lot of overlap so I was also introduced to a lot of feminism online. And eventually I came to identify as a feminist.
 

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Mr. Fisty said:
Males complain that females are slvtty, but when they have sexual hang-ups because of how they are judged, like not giving bj's, then they are worthless. Reason why some females are sexually dysfunctional, and it boils down to insecurity.
There is a difference between a sexually promiscuous woman who refuses to do certain things sexually with a current LTR that they did with hook-ups in the past and a sexually conservative girl who is uncomfortable with experimenting sexually.

They are not the same person.

Mr. Fisty said:
Calling a female a slvt because there is a threat against one's own ego that they should be the best sex partner, have the biggest c0ck, and do everything they did in the past with another sexual partner. If they do not, then they feel as their SO does not love them. For instance anal. Because you did something in the past, you owe me now, what a loving sentiment, even if anal make cause discomfort.
Standard go-to response:

If a man refused to go all out for romantic gestures with his current SO, but did so with a previous one, I take it the women would be in the wrong to be offended and take it as an insult?
 

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Nynaeve said:
Why do you need to judge me according to whether I agree with Valenti or Grass or whoever?

Why do you feel the need to do that?
Because if you endorse the writing and view-points of radical misandrist feminist authors all of your attempts to claim SA is illegitimately prejudiced against feminism ring hollow.
 

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There is a difference between a sexually promiscuous woman who refuses to do certain things sexually with a current LTR that they did with hook-ups in the past and a sexually conservative girl who is uncomfortable with experimenting sexually.

They are not the same person.


Standard go-to response:

If a man refused to go all out for romantic gestures with his current SO, but did so with a previous one, I take it the women would be in the wrong to be offended and take it as an insult?

Yes, I am realistic enough to know that everyone has a variance on how much of a biological factor is triggered. If I do not invoke the same level of lust as another partner, then that is the reality.

If someone put up with cheating with their prior relationship, but then decides to make it a hard boundary now, then if the other does not want that boundary they are free to leave. Every relationship is different.

If a female does not like the level of romance, then find someone else instead, obviously that person is not correct for you. If it is jealousy, then that is there issue to work on. I am not going to tell my gf she is the most beautiful girl I have dated, but she is still attractive to me. I am cool with not being the best sex partner, as long as I find the relationship fulfilling, why waste energy and make myself miserable. The relationship is between me and her, and whatever parameters we set for that relationship.

If she does not give me bj's, then I am fine with that, even if she gave them in the past to others. The fact is, the others are not in the relationship.

The question she should ask herself is the level of romance sufficient enough. If she is jealous, as stated, she needs to work on her issues.
 

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I don't see that it bothers many women at all.. they Love a man with experience.. many say this.. and feel strongly here.
Agreed...And the same goes for many of us guys. Speaking for myself, I love a woman who has "experience" and would go so far as to say that I wouldn't dream of ever entering into a serious relationship with a woman who has never had another lover other than me.

I know some guys "fret" over their SO's past, but the way I look at is...."She picked me to stay with and that says something." :)
 

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I was not trying to imply that others are like my mother, what happened to her was a tragedy -where she didn't recover in healthy ways...it's lessons had a profound effect on me as a young girl.... it's not something I can ever erase, it's deeply personal , emotional for me.. even now..
I hear your pain, SA. I am so sorry for what happened to your mom. I can only imagine the anger you feel for the way she was treated, and the fear you must have had growing up, that the same could have happened to you.

No one wants their mother to have ever been abused or to feel unloved. I wish I knew what to say to lessen the hurt. :(
 
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Of course it happens to me.

SA, I hold the ideals of feminism dear. How do you not see that the things that YOU are saying about feminism and feminists is precisely the kind of "mockery" that you think feminists are saying about you?

I deal with it by thinking critically about it. Does their claim have merit? Is it logical? Is the tone of 'mockery' that I perceive really intended as mockery of my beliefs or is it someone else simply expressing their own feelings? Where is the author's angst, anger, etc, coming from?

Usually, I find that the criticism/mockery isn't logical or reasonable. Often laughably so. Usually I can shrug it off or laugh at the absurdity. Sometimes it gets under my skin. When it does, it's because it's coming from someone I want to respect. In those cases I end up ranting to my husband and then letting it go.
Ok.. this is good advice.. I need a tougher skin at times.. I'm not perfect.. but I'd like to believe I am still a good person...with right intentions...

It's hard to overlook when you feel another is taking it further than just agreeing to disagree but trying to CHANGE me.. not accepting me for me.. this is a harder pill to swallow.. I think you can understand this.. and what Icey said.. the association with such authors.. it's a concern to me.. Yes..

But I have learned the hard way - through years and years of online debate - that just because a contrary opinion upsets me doesn't mean that the person offering it is trying to upset me. That's how I came to be not really a Christian anymore. It used to upset me when atheists mocked Christianity and Christians. I used to get defensive. I used to want to believe (and therefore did believe) the negative stereotypes about atheists that Christians like to cling to. But at some point I realized I was being dishonest with myself. I wasn't really giving due consideration to their points of view or their arguments. I was projecting bad motives and "mockery" onto a lot of what was not actually intended as such. Sure, there are some jerk atheists. But there are also a lot of jerk Christians. And some of that mockery comes from a place of being hurt by those they are mocking.
I can relate to what you say here very much.. I wanted to argue with someone online who said Hitler was a Christian (like where is this coming from!)..... so I got to learning the whole reasoning behind this.. Came to learn things that SHOCKED ME.....like "On Jews & their lies" written by Luther & how Hitler distributed this during the Holocaust, near everything LUther SPOKE.. Hitler put into action.. he USED Luthers writings to blind the people..

I dug deeper to where some of these doctrines came from..the debates that ensued..... who won... and who was deemed the Heretics...from this - the official loosing of my religion...

When watching Larry King Live yrs ago.. James McAauther -,(a Preacher) he would be on the show a good bit...along with an Atheist and another -always ENJOYED the debates... 95% of the time I resonated MORE with the Atheist over how the Christian presented himself...

Our attitude , even if we have the facts right, or whatever it may be..., can destroy many things.. (don't read into this -by any means.. I am not referring to anyone .. and I mean it for myself also )...and yes.. I have missed it many times..


Wait... so you're telling me that you've NEVER read a feminist article that you didn't feel was belittling you or your way of life?
I have found most of them speak so much about being independent & not depending on a man- like if I choose this lifestyle & allow my husband to provide for me...that I was not living up to feminist ideals.. Yes I feel outside of this..Mostly these type articles.. I would search Traditional views / feminism ...it's a difficult mix for many. I don't have issues with a Man taking the Lead in the marriage either, if he is a good man, having our best interests at heart.. this matters tremendously.

Honestly, SA.... I have a hard time believing that. Either you've really not read many or, IMHO, you're projecting onto the articles something that isn't there.

There's a reason we call it a prejudice. Are you sure you're not pre-judging?
I try to be very logical & listen to both sides.. ... and No.. they are not always putting my way of life down DIRECTLY.. but again.. so much talk about being independent... only makes me feel like a loser.. but I LOVE my life the way it is, my choices.. it's not like someone like ME could be a spokesperson for anything feminist.. that would be a JOKE.. I've read articles -where some feel women like me is slowing the cause down.. .. what am I supposed to do with that??

It's not something I find inspiring in any way.. or even encouraging.. .the articles about SAHM's.. Yes they are out there.. I have found them.. but even THEY will speak how they've had to deal with others looking down on them...

So, you're going to base your opinion of the entirety of feminism on hearsay you heard from a college student about college students?

SA, if you can't see how foolish that is than I don't know what to tell you. You can't judge those young women based on how your son told you he thinks they feel about him. Just because you trust him doesn't mean that he's 100% right about those young women.

I mean, come on. How would you like it if people judged you like that? Can we please do a little bit of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you?
Nynaeve...all I can say here is... without knowing our son & his friend.. these 2 men ...I think the world of them.. it's not because he is my son either (if he was an idiot , I would probably say so- and make myself look like a lousy mother)..... he is very OPEN, warm , friendly.. so willing to listen to others, try to see their side.. be there for them.. volunteering his time.. he is somewhat of a pushover.. and loves women.... (and always greatly respects them)....

I DO trust our conversation.. he is like me.. if there is something Good to say.. he will say it - even if he is against something.. .. I have taught him critical thinking all my life.....to be open to others views... his roommate.. so many discussions / debates on Calvinism/ religion when we visited.. .. Loved this guy... I do trust the things they spoke that was said to them.. .

For all we know , they were around the more radical ones... or those who would look down on their world views.. they most definitely felt this from them. I will not say it was misplaced & automatically jump to the defense of women I never met either.... he is coming to visit soon.. I will revisit this conversation!.. I know he mentioned the vagina monologue chronicles ..trying to explain this to me. but I forget what all he said now.. .


So, we have to agree with these men in order to win them to our side? But then if we agree with them, we're basically joining their side. So... that's not really winning them over, is it? That's called surrendering.

I'm not going to agree that someone is right and stop arguing my point of view or my position just because I want someone to like me. If logic and facts proved their interpretation was the correct one, then they can present the logic and facts and win ME over.
I feel the same way in this..No.. it's not about agreeing but deeply listening , acknowledging segments of truth in how they feel.. giving this back to them. and coming to the table.. working it out.. not giving up.. not closing down...finding some common ground.. . you may see a lot of this. but it doesn't appear so according to many men.. I would say the same thing for them.. to acknowledge our concerns & give each other a little leeway.. even in our disagreement ...so peace can be found..

It's not like we are all married to each other.. we're not going to agree on a number of things.. and it's OK.

Look. I don't actually think men and women are at war with one another. And the truth is that even on this issue, there isn't one, unified "male position." There are plenty of men who disagree that men are not wanting marriage and plenty more that disagree as to why.

So, the idea that feminists are just refusing to empathize with men and that's why we disagree on this topic is illogical.
of course I agree there is no lumping ALL men or ALL women or throwing the added "feminists" buzz word into the mix.. this being my downfall on this thread... running with the word being used IN THE ARTICLE....I just connected what was being said here.. (knowing those who self identify) and spoke (you can add "out of my a**) if you like..

This was my blunder then...

Honestly my entire life...I have looked upon people in 2 ways..1) are they good, safe, honest, have integrity (this encompasses many things) .. or 2) are they shady, will lie.. talk behind my back, use me, hurt me?..... .. Men or women.. same thing. these are my filters....and only time & shared experiences can answer those.... what religion , what gender, what color, it doesn't matter to me .. to pass the friend test. .. these are my requirements....

Now to pass the lover test is a ton more lengthy... but not the friend test..

If they can not accept me for Being ME.. it does all go to hell though... As I am sure you all feel this way as well.. ..and should .

Nobody expects you to conform, SA. Disagreeing with the things you say, and telling you why we think you're wrong is not requiring conformity. It's disagreeing.
I am all for this >>
..

It's this kind of sentiment that makes me think it's just a matter of prejudice for you. You're extremely defensive. It reminds me of Christians claiming they're being persecuted because of gay marriage.
now I disagree here.. I do not feel I have been extremely defensive.. I have taken the time to explain myself as best I could & to where I felt I was being misunderstood...

I am extending my attempt to understand your side.. but yes, it's hurtful to still be met with your feeling this way.. if I speak. if I share..

What I have gotten upset about, and what I've seen others get upset about, is the things you say about feminists. You don't have to say or imply that we're all wh8res and slvts. How can you not see that thinking of us all in such a derogatory way is insulting to us?
I have not said this ONCE In this thread.. it's hurtful to me -that others consistently INSIST I am doing this... Like above.. I apologize .. if I used the word feminist in a way that brought this on.. it was WRONG as this encompasses half the world & all varieties of faiths, beliefs, you name it..

Why can't you just accept and believe that not all feminists - indeed, not even most feminists - are these terrible, hateful people? You don't have to agree with feminism to do that.
I never felt this anyway.. and No -I do not feel this way. for the Record.. Rose Aglow is a wonderful feminist.. so is JLD.. love her ... even though I don't self identify nor any of my friends in real life.. we just don't have these sort of conversations ... I understand now.. not to use this word.. Frankly I want to erase it from my TAM keyboard after this thread. Lesson learned.

Jessica Valenti? No, not really. *sigh*

Why do you need to tell which kind of feminist you're talking to? Why do you need to label us? Why can't you just read our words and deal with what we say, when we say it? Why do you need to judge me according to whether I agree with Valenti or Grass or whoever?

Why do you feel the need to do that?
because I feel my lifestyle / values is very much looked down upon by these 2 examples... it's that simple.. if someone praises them, their work.. I know they look down on many traditional ideals....It's an association.

My journey to feminism started out because of my Christian beliefs. I was very active in the church. All my life. I studied the Bible deeply - like, seminary level stuff. But I was told by my church that I wasn't allowed to teach the Bible or preach to men. Just because I'm a woman and that's how they interpreted some Bible verses. I didn't agree with how they interpreted things. I got interested in studying it and came across Christians for Biblical Equality. They aren't specifically feminist but there's a lot of overlap so I was also introduced to a lot of feminism online. And eventually I came to identify as a feminist.
I have a female evangelist friend. seen her yesterday...great Lady... our neighbors have a Female Preacher..(or whatever the name is for that)...they are upset because she had to move to another church.. she was well loved...just saying..
 

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It's hard to overlook when you feel another is taking it further than just agreeing to disagree but trying to CHANGE me.. not accepting me for me.. this is a harder pill to swallow.. I think you can understand this.. and what Icey said.. the association with such authors.. it's a concern to me.. Yes..
Now I KNOW you've been around here long enough to understand that the single biggest sticking point in these forums are the folks who have no ability to look outside of their life experience to see anything useful.

Everyone of my in-laws is like this. Constant whining about how the world is all wrong with the implication that if only everything was Their Way (TM), life would be all peachy. There's no shortage of the same mentality here.
 

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Now I KNOW you've been around here long enough to understand that the single biggest sticking point in these forums are the folks who have no ability to look outside of their life experience to see anything useful.

Everyone of my in-laws is like this. Constant whining about how the world is all wrong with the implication that if only everything was Their Way (TM), life would be all peachy. There's no shortage of the same mentality here.
I think we are all like this to some degree.

I am constantly telling men to become stronger in themselves, to not take their wives' emotions personally, to become the rock in their storms, to reach out with empathy. That's my message.

But it is not the message for every man. Some men need the wife to be the rock for them. And those wives are happy to do it.
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SA, I don't see anyone trying to change you. Are you saying just because people believe something other than what you believe that this alone means they are trying to change you?
I don't mean on the threads.. it was behind the scenes.. that is all I want to say.. I found it very hurtful and well.. that's my problem obviously.. but to share about your life for a couple yrs.... then be met with that..it's like being slapped in the face.. and no, I don't need friends like this.
 

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For any marriage to last, there needs to be total unconditional love. Does unconditional love really exist? At this point in my life, I believe that unconditional love only works if we are getting our needs met.

Several years ago, I had a conversation with my best friend from H.S. he asked me what took me so long to get married and start a family. He always saw ms as a family man. I imaging most girls back then probably thought the same thing about me. I was in love with the idea of being in love. I was the diehard romantic. I was never much into dating girls who I went to school with because I knew their previous bf's. I did date a few girls from other schools. It was a good thing I didn't know their previous bf's.

So off to the Navy. I had a couple LTR relationships, but it was just sex. I never went out on an actual date with any of them. Most lasted for a couple of years. I hoped it would of turned into love. It never did.

So when I met my wife, I knew from the start I wanted to marry her. She was my first real gf and I was her first bf. She was 25, she was a virgin, I knew she was a good girl, I knew she wouldn't cheat, I knew she'd make a good mother and I Knew she wouldn't leave or abandoned me. After 23 years, all that holds true.

I love my wife more than I have ever loved anybody. The only condition I have/had was that she love me in return. I don't believe she loves me or ever really did in the way I always wanted her to. So, in a sense, my love is conditional. Most people no longer have unconditional love. As soon as our needs no longer get met, we bolt. Young as well as divorced people know this.

Why get married? People change. Change is necessary for individual growth. Some people in LTR's grow and change together. Most however, grow and drift apart. I believe both the man and the woman, to some degree, needs to be in love with the idea of being in love. For myself, I am no longer in love with the idea of being in love. Maybe that will change in the future.
 

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so what's YOUR explanation, please illuminate us.
Both women and men of western nations are spending more becoming educated and trained to become employed that marriage isn't high on their priority list. Feminism really doesn't come into it, for me at least, though I empathize with some groups who are still escaping the poverty trap. For those interested, my giving back is to support a fund for women starting their own businesses. In addition to interest-free financing, these women are also provided mentoring support from those of us who have 'gone before'.

I have a son who will be going away to university soon. The youth today don't seem as concerned with getting boy/girlfriends as my generation. When they do, it's much more casual.

So I think, aside from the stat being misleading as posted previously, we are seeing an emphasis on higher education as we shift increasingly towards a knowledge-based economy. Both men and women require this training to become employed so it makes perfect sense to me they delay marriage and children until they are financial stable. Education takes time.

There is a terrible saying, which has a kernel of truth: The rich (western nations) keep getting richer and the poor... have children.

I'm a humanist. Not a feminist.
 

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So the entirety of this thread is false then. It's not men who don't marry it's people. Everyone.
It's people up to the age of about 25. People are just getting married later, after they get into a better place financially.
 

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Well, the laws that govern the contract are out there for all the public to read. Few do, I don't know why they don't bother to do this, but they don't.

Perhaps this is something that should be taught. High school would be a good place.

I did take a class in the topic, given by some attorney before I married.

The contract is gender neutral. As more and more women are able to support themselves, things like 50/50 custody are becoming the norm. Alimony is paid in only 15% of divorces and it is usually only transitional. Very few divorces include long term, or life long, alimony.

The divorce rate is not 50%, it's about 30% over all.

It's about 50% for the very young and very poor. The older the couple is and the more education they have the lower the divorce rate. These divorces usually happen early in the marriage, so they are short term marriages. These folks have no assets and there is no alimony. NO one is fleeced.

For example marriages where the woman is 25 or older and has a degree is about 25%. The more education, the lower the divorce rate.

Most people have little to no assets to speak of so most do not even divide assets... except they each keep the car that they drive. And they get to keep their own clothes.

More and more states are moving away from the idea of alimony. A SAHP can get rehabilitative alimony for a short time. But it's rare.
Some good points but I fear that another wave of statistics are about to hit, or at least will hit in the coming years. When both the man and a woman in a relationship have the means to live on their own a-ok - they have no barrier to leaving to do just that. I think it is good that women have found greater independence. Sadly I wonder if it doesn't make it easier for both men and women to not put effort into making relationships last.

My grandfather told me the biggest issue for younger generations is they fight so hard to get each other but not keep each other. I am a higher level executive, the divorce rate is staggering, the cheating rate is even big and I see it with both men and women at this level and guess who they remarry (when they do) if they divorce at this level....yep another executive. Similar to the doctor who had one spouse support them through med-school etc. and then dumps them for someone in the medical field after they hit the good life....

Divorce rates are going to go up. Young men might be a leading indicator of what is to come.....Marriage, as most of us thought of it growing up, may simply go away or change so much that those of us in older groups will hardly recognize it....

Maybe I'm just jaded.....
 

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It's people up to the age of about 25. People are just getting married later, after they get into a better place financially.
My eldest is getting married this year. He will be 30. But it wasn't so much financial aspects since they've been together on their own financially for years. I think the core issue is stability - where one sees oneself being and doing 5 or 10 years down the road.
 
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