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I agree that both genders are initially attracted to physical beauty however I have also observed that beauty itself is subjective in that there are very few people that all would agree are beautiful. For me, a person’s beauty evaporates instantly when they display certain behaviors and/or personality traits.

Some people will sleep with an extraordinarily handsome man/beautiful woman … just because. I don’t understand that way of thinking but perhaps it’s because I experience my sexuality differently than they do. I have dated quite a few (and married one) very handsome men … some monetarily successful and, even a few actors and professional athletes … the result is that I have become very suspicious of this category of men. Does that mean they are all cretins? No, but my experiences have caused sufficient bias in my thinking that I began avoiding those types like the plague.

My biggest problem in relationships is that I am a very kind and empathetic person IRL and, disordered-types are adept at sensing these traits and then pursue me for their own advantage. This is a therapist’s explanation anyhow. Guess I need to work on my boundaries and my “picker”.
 

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For ME personally, physical looks mean almost NOTHING as far as attraction to me.
They only matter in that I am visually attracted to MEN. So almost ALL men are mildly attractive to me, in a general, "guys are so cute" kind of way. But there MUST be something extra there to push that into ACTUAL physical attraction, which then makes me want to attract HIM, and be near him. And that "extra" thing is NEVER physical or something I SEE - it's something ABOUT HIM.

And the other thing I noticed about how I felt about my two previous husbands when I was in love with them was, once I was attracted to THEM, I loved how they looked, no matter what they looked like - thinner or heavier, short or long hair, beard or shaved, muscular or not...nothing about that mattered to ME. I loved their bodies and how they looked because I loved THEM. When something about them made my heart sparkle, then everything about them was attractive to me, and I wanted to touch them and kiss them and feel them. THEY turned me on, so I wanted them -- I didn't care what "package" they came in, I just wanted to get my hands on it! Lol!!
 

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Many of you are looking at this from s relationship/marriage oriented perspective in which case, yes average and even somewhat homely men often get with attractive women. Beauty and the beast stories are common.

Average/a little above average/and even a little below average men probably marry at about the same rates as very very good looking men and perhaps even at slightly higher rate.

It’s no newsflash that women will enter relationships/marriage less attractive men.

Where women’s behavior is similar to men is with very good looking men in spontaneous, NSA and casual hook ups outside of traditional relationships.

Women will hook up with extraordinarily good looking men within a short period of time of meeting him, some times right there in the bar or parking lot. Sometimes even when they have boyfriends or husbands.

When a woman hooks up with a hot guy at the bar she just met, she is not wondering if he will be a kind, faithful partner ( in fact, she knows he won’t be) she isn’t wondering if he will be a good father and good provider.

She knows that he is hot and knows her body wants to mash with his.

When a real hot guy enters the scene, women respond and react much as a man would with an attractive woman.

Sometimes women will even shun real good looking guys in terms of relationships because they know he will be hooking up with other chicks, but that doesn’t stop her from pulling him into the bathroom at the bar and propping her bare bottom up on the counter to bang him.

Women are just as sexually responsive and adventurous and motivated as men..... but they just respond in that manner with a lot fewer people than a man would and they deny it more and cover their tracks better in public.

Women are not less sexual than men, they just have much smaller strike zones on how many trigger that response in them.
 

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Right I get that. The thing is a lot of other traits and characteristics go into into a woman’s attraction and desire besides looks and many women are willing to fudge a little on looks if a guy has other characteristics that she values.

But throw in a Calvin Klein underwear model or Chippendale and a woman is going to go gaw-gaw just as much as a man would for a good looking woman.

It’s just that there are only a few underwear models or chippendales out there, so if a woman wants to be partnered, she’s either going to have to settle for a more normal looking guy or wait her turn for the Chippendale.
Well, what you are calling "fudging a little on looks" is what I'm calling "isn't that important"...it's NOT settling in her mind, I don't think - at least, not in the same way it might be to the male mind. She is attracted MORE by something else than by his looks.

And if underwear models or Chippendales were as much an incentive for women as it is for men, then WHY aren't there more of them? Sexy women sell things to men -- the reverse for women isn't really true. That right there proves my point at least a little.
 

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Many of you are looking at this from s relationship/marriage oriented perspective in which case, yes average and even somewhat homely men often get with attractive women. Beauty and the beast stories are common.

Average/a little above average/and even a little below average men probably marry at about the same rates as very very good looking men and perhaps even at slightly higher rate.

It’s no newsflash that women will enter relationships/marriage less attractive men.

Where women’s behavior is similar to men is with very good looking men in spontaneous, NSA and casual hook ups outside of traditional relationships.

Women will hook up with extraordinarily good looking men within a short period of time of meeting him, some times right there in the bar or parking lot. Sometimes even when they have boyfriends or husbands.

When a woman hooks up with a hot guy at the bar she just met, she is not wondering if he will be a kind, faithful partner ( in fact, she knows he won’t be) she isn’t wondering if he will be a good father and good provider.

She knows that he is hot and knows her body wants to mash with his.

When a real hot guy enters the scene, women respond and react much as a man would with an attractive woman.

Sometimes women will even shun real good looking guys in terms of relationships because they know he will be hooking up with other chicks, but that doesn’t stop her from pulling him into the bathroom at the bar and propping her bare bottom up on the counter to bang him.

Women are just as sexually responsive and adventurous and motivated as men..... but they just respond in that manner with a lot fewer people than a man would and they deny it more and cover their tracks better in public.

Women are not less sexual than men, they just have much smaller strike zones on how many trigger that response in them.
I still say my point that physical, visual attraction doesn't create the same arousal response in women is true (for the most part). Maybe women are more aroused that an exceptionally desired man wants HER, and THAT triggers her desire for sex with him, but I still believe that it's different from how men respond physically to visual attraction (again, for the most part).
 

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Well, what you are calling "fudging a little on looks" is what I'm calling "isn't that important"...it's NOT settling in her mind, I don't think - at least, not in the same way it might be to the male mind. She is attracted MORE by something else than by his looks.

And if underwear models or Chippendales were as much an incentive for women as it is for men, then WHY aren't there more of them? Sexy women sell things to men -- the reverse for women isn't really true. That right there proves my point at least a little.
I was just using models and chippendales as a conceptual example of a really, really, really, good looking man (I’m channeling Zoolander here LOL) and wasn’t meaning it to mean actual models and chippendales.

There is only a small percentage of men that are that good looking. There aren’t more of them because the majority of men aren’t that visually appealing to most women. Human males simply aren’t the pretty ones like in the animal community.

As I said in a later post, when an extraordinarily good looking man does enter the scene, women start acting and responding very similarly to how men respond to a good looking woman.
 

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I was just using models and chippendales as a conceptual example of a really, really, really, good looking man (I’m channeling Zoolander here LOL) and wasn’t meaning it to mean actual models and chippendales.

There is only a small percentage of men that are that good looking. There aren’t more of them because the majority of men aren’t that visually appealing to most women. Human males simply aren’t the pretty ones like in the animal community.

As I said in a later post, when an extraordinarily good looking man does enter the scene, women start acting and responding very similarly to how men respond to a good looking woman.
Hmm...THIS is an interesting point...I wonder if it's like a "chicken-and-egg" type of thing -- are males not that visually appealing BECAUSE women aren't visually driven like men are (like I believe)...OR, is it that women would be more visually driven if men were more visually appealing (like you believe)...??

I wonder...
 

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I still say my point that physical, visual attraction doesn't create the same arousal response in women is true (for the most part). Maybe women are more aroused that an exceptionally desired man wants HER, and THAT triggers her desire for sex with him, but I still believe that it's different from how men respond physically to visual attraction (again, for the most part).
I dunno. I work in an environment that is primarily female. When an extraordinarily good looking man shows up, they all start acting as pervy as a group of men would if a good looking woman shows up.

When the Chippendales or other traveling troupe of male strippers come to town, go to the show and keep an eye on what is happening behind the scenes.

You’ll see chicks ducking into the bathrooms with them and slipping back stage or out in the parking or following them back to their hotel rooms.

Many of these women have lots of other men that are desiring them but aren’t slipping into bathrooms with them or following them back to motel rooms.

They aren’t slipping into the bathroom with Ron from the hardware store within a few minutes of meeting him at the club.

The difference between Magic Mike and Ron from the hardware store is mostly looks.
 

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I dunno. I work in an environment that is primarily female. When an extraordinarily good looking man shows up, they all start acting as pervy as a group of men would if a good looking woman shows up.

When the Chippendales or other traveling troupe of male strippers come to town, go to the show and keep an eye on what is happening behind the scenes.

You’ll see chicks ducking into the bathrooms with them and slipping back stage or out in the parking or following them back to their hotel rooms.

Many of these women have lots of other men that are desiring them but aren’t slipping into bathrooms with them or following them back to motel rooms.

They aren’t slipping into the bathroom with Ron from the hardware store within a few minutes of meeting him at the club.

The difference between Magic Mike and Ron from the hardware store is mostly looks.
Yes, that's true, but I don't know if that's a good indicator of anything, because women will do that with AC/DC or the Rolling Stones, and those are some of the most physically repulsive men on the planet...

And many women would probably choose Angus Young or Brian Johnson or Mick Jagger over any male model, simply because of their elevated status and money. So physical attraction alone doesn't determine who women appear to be turned on by. (And the key word there is APPEAR)
 

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Hmm...THIS is an interesting point...I wonder if it's like a "chicken-and-egg" type of thing -- are males not that visually appealing BECAUSE women aren't visually driven like men are (like I believe)...OR, is it that women would be more visually driven if men were more visually appealing (like you believe)...??

I wonder...
Perhaps a bit of both. As a guy, I can attest that many men were raised to believe “its what’s inside that counts” for women and that as long as you are a good person are responsible and have a good job, you will get chicks.

Back in my day, men who were really concerned with their appearance and put a lot of time and effort into their looks were mocked and ridiculed and even suspected of being gay. Men wer kind of expected to look like they could change a tire or unclog a sink or repair the fence at any given time.
Back on the farm, men were raised for their utility and what they can do and what they can provide rather than how they look.

So maybe if more men realized they could be hooking up with chicks just by being really really really good looking (Zoolander again) they would spend more time, energy and money on looking better.

The wild card here however is how the women will respond to that.

If the aggregate appearance of men increases across the board, will women become more sexually responsive????

Or will they still all shoot for the top 10-15%?

The theory of hypergamy states women will shoot for the top tiers of men. If all men get better looking as a whole, will it still only be the top 10% or so that benefits?
 

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Yes, that's true, but I don't know if that's a good indicator of anything, because women will do that with AC/DC or the Rolling Stones, and those are some of the most physically repulsive men on the planet...

And many women would probably choose Angus Young or Brian Johnson or Mick Jagger over any male model, simply because of their elevated status and money. So physical attraction alone doesn't determine who women appear to be turned on by. (And the key word there is APPEAR)
Put Adam Levine or young Bon Jovi up against Angus or Mick or Steven Tyler or similarity unattractive rock star and see who comes out ahead.

Everything else being equal, the better looking person will win out every single time.

The catch is everything else is never equal. It’s always going to be a mosaic of various other traits and characteristics and each individual has their own set of values.
 

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Put Adam Levine or young Bon Jovi up against Angus or Mick or Steven Tyler or similarity unattractive rock star and see who comes out ahead.

Everything else being equal, the better looking person will win out every single time.

The catch is everything else is never equal. It’s always going to be a mosaic of various other traits and characteristics and each individual has their own set of values.
But you are skipping over my point - that visual appeal isn't THE SAME for women as it is for men.

I agree that women ARE visually attracted, I am just saying men mistake how that attraction affects women, and that it's NOT the same for both.

And your examples are great and make interesting points to consider, but still haven't actually demonstrated that I am wrong...not to ME, anyway... :)
 

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I would say that maybe you've been around a certain TYPE of women then...OR...the guys who looked good had something EXTRA that attracted those women...I believe most women are more attracted or turned off by a guy's ATTITUDE than his LOOKS.

And I could be wrong...but from what I've heard and seen with the women I've been around, it's NOT the same as men at all.

But it's also subtle...it can appear to be more visually driven than what's really going on underneath, possibly.
I agree with this. At least for me and some of my friends, it is all about attitude and maybe physical presence and confidence, which can turn an average looking guy into a hot guy. I've certainly encountered some really good looking men who just didn't have enough personality to keep me interested for even one date.
 

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Yes, that's true, but I don't know if that's a good indicator of anything, because women will do that with AC/DC or the Rolling Stones, and those are some of the most physically repulsive men on the planet...

And many women would probably choose Angus Young or Brian Johnson or Mick Jagger over any male model, simply because of their elevated status and money. So physical attraction alone doesn't determine who women appear to be turned on by. (And the key word there is APPEAR)
Yes, that's true, but I don't know if that's a good indicator of anything, because women will do that with AC/DC or the Rolling Stones, and those are some of the most physically repulsive men on the planet...

And many women would probably choose Angus Young or Brian Johnson or Mick Jagger over any male model, simply because of their elevated status and money. So physical attraction alone doesn't determine who women appear to be turned on by. (And the key word there is APPEAR)
I won't say all but many people who are attracted to rock stars like you mentioned, it's because they really connect with their music and they begin to feel like they really know them, and to some extent they do.

Plus if they have enough confidence and talent to get up on stage and be successful, that is a tremendous asset that supplements whatever looks they have. Women love that confidence. I don't think you can overemphasize that.
 

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But you are skipping over my point - that visual appeal isn't THE SAME for women as it is for men.

I agree that women ARE visually attracted, I am just saying men mistake how that attraction affects women, and that it's NOT the same for both.

And your examples are great and make interesting points to consider, but still haven't actually demonstrated that I am wrong...not to ME, anyway... :)
I think it can be the same and sometimes is.

In my old office building, there was a flaw with the fire alarm. The firemen would have to come. It happened a lot. My office was mostly women. There were some very hot firemen. We'd all be texting each other about them, their location, and if we saw some of them on the ground floor, etc, and co workers were making excuses to go and interact with them. One summer workers were redoing the roof of a tall building across the street. Hot, young dudes. The guys would be working and eventually take their shirts off. Women in my office would be congregating in the offices with the best view. Pictures were taken.

In college I saw some of my friends lose their minds about some of the hottest guys.
 

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But you are skipping over my point - that visual appeal isn't THE SAME for women as it is for men.

I agree that women ARE visually attracted, I am just saying men mistake how that attraction affects women, and that it's NOT the same for both.

And your examples are great and make interesting points to consider, but still haven't actually demonstrated that I am wrong...not to ME, anyway... :)
I’m not saying you’re wrong or even think that you are wrong.

I’m not saying that women are exactly like men or that they are necessarily as visual as men.

But I am saying that the behavior gaps lessens and women’s responses and behaviors become more similar to men’s if a guy is extremely good looking.
 

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I’m not saying you’re wrong or even think that you are wrong.

I’m not saying that women are exactly like men or that they are necessarily as visual as men.

But I am saying that the behavior gaps lessens and women’s responses and behaviors become more similar to men’s if a guy is extremely good looking.
Actually, this is a really great point and way of putting it, and I think I have to agree with you...or at least agree that it's possible!
 

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Hmm...THIS is an interesting point...I wonder if it's like a "chicken-and-egg" type of thing -- are males not that visually appealing BECAUSE women aren't visually driven like men are (like I believe)...OR, is it that women would be more visually driven if men were more visually appealing (like you believe)...??

I wonder...
No, what you believe is, I believe, closer to the truth (that visual attraction for women is generally less important than for men or at least that it is a lot more complicated).

However this is all incredibly simplistic. The whole premise is incredibly simplistic.
It depends what the woman is looking for when she is selecting a mate. It depends what a guy is looking for too. It depends on each person individually what they are personally looking for, most importantly. One won’t learn a thing from making generalisations about this.

Does visual attraction play a part in mate selection? Definitely. Is that equal for both sexes, on average? I don’t think so.

If anyone thinks that the proof that that is not true lies in the fact that they had a lot of sex with women because of their looks, proves only that they attracted a lot of women who are attracted to a specific look. In the same way that it would be wrong for a one-legged man to conclude that most women are attracted to one-legged men on average, if they he themselves experienced a lot of sex with many women, after they lost their leg.

I do think that attraction should definitely not be underestimated when looking for a partner. Maybe that advice applies more to younger women because for a young woman (before she is comfortable with her sexuality or knows what it is she wants in that department), partner selection may not filter enough through that raw attraction filter for her yet.

That’s one way to explain the many sexless threads anyway...Or if that filter actually works properly from an early age, maybe that’s just not whom they pick as marriage material.
 

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When the Chippendales or other traveling troupe of male strippers come to town, go to the show and keep an eye on what is happening behind the scenes.

You’ll see chicks ducking into the bathrooms with them and slipping back stage or out in the parking or following them back to their hotel rooms.
And that’s based on the premise that ALL women go to watch male strippers?
It’s nice to imagine women are as ‘pervy’ as men - I’m sure many are, maybe even more pervy - but if your sample is based on the kind of women that hang out in male strip clubs (or even the local library), I would say your study could do with a little peer reviewing first
 
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