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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My husband and I have been together for about 15 years, 7 of those years we've been married. We have two kids. After the delivery of our first child, I had very bad PPD for two years (also triggered another illness, which resulted in many health problems). We had little sex then because I was depressed, full of self-loathing, sick and guilty that was working and not caring for our son. I tried to give him more attention, but I admit it was difficult. But sometime during all of this, my husband decided that sex was something I owed him. For example, if I went out shopping for 2 hours while he looked after our child, he was mad that I didn't initiate sex to thank him. It just continued to get worse from there until he was so angry he yelled at me about it.
After our second was born, I stayed home and I have been healthy and happy. I am trying to be that awesome wife that cooks amazing food, plans fun activities for the kids, started a home business to make extra money and I'm trying to have sex with him more often to say "thank you" for taking on full financial responsibility. But the same theory, in his mind, applies. If I go out with some friends (which happens once a year, MAYBE). He tells me I don't understand that I need to reward him for taking care of the kids that night. According to him, I owe him.
So, I've sucked it up and pretended for a long time. We have fought again and again because he wants me to initiate. So I do. Then we fight because he comes onto me when extremely drunk, which happens at least 3-4 times a month. My problem with it is he smells bad when drunk, he gets creepy when drunk, he can't keep an erection but makes it go on for 2 hours usually (again with no erection) and it's usually around 1 or 2 am when he starts this. I told him I don't like to have sex with him when he is trashed. Frankly, I don't find him sexy or appealing when he can't stand up straight. And finally, our latest fights have been because he wants me to be into sex for real and he also wants/needs kinky sex.
I feel like I can't make him happy. But then again, I'm not interested in sex with him because he puts so much damn pressure on it. I have a hard time switching mental gears from super mom to sex kitten. On top of that, I'm always worried he'll lose his erection, start a fight or insist that it's not enough because it needs to be kinkier.
We are separated for a few weeks due to a death in the family. I have the kids. He'll arrive in a week. He just told me he almost cheated on me the other day with a friend's wife. I feel totally dismayed. We are good partners, in many ways. We laugh, engage in many of the same past times, we both care about health and fitness, we are both super involved parents. We have fun together (sometimes) and we have good parties with good friends. But, this sex issue is driving me up the wall.
Who is right? Do I owe him sex for watching the kids, "letting" me go out and such? My thought is that I shouldn't owe him sex. Sex should be something I want to have with him. Something I enjoy with him. Something we can share together. To me, it's not a commodity that I should use to get what I want from my husband's time. Likening it as such cheapens it for me and really turns me off.
I think we need help. I don't even care who is right and who is wrong. I just want to know what to do.
 

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I really can't offer any advice except to say that I'm almost in the same boat as you and I truly understand.
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Well you got a dozy of a problem. Who be right is it the wife who does not want to have sex or the husband who NEEDS kinky sex and gropes her when drunk. Sad part is that you both contributed to a screwed up situation let me go through some of the dysfunctions that I see please understand I am not trying to be hurtful it just helps to condense things so that we can all see what is going on.

1: You went though some buppy patches with sex due to some medical conditions you tried to be understanding and help him out but really during this time it was probably all you could to to help yourself, no blame here as when it is medical the spouse is supposed to suspend their needs to take care of you. But he was still resentful of you.

2: After this began the "You owe me sex thing" you went along with this probably because you were tired of the fighting really this was the start of a bad thing at this point you should of said NO I don't owe you. Instead here was the time to read books and maybe counselling when one partner feels they are OWED something you have a problem. Once you gave into this you made it a viable tactic for him.

3: He kept pressuring you as it was a working tactic for him to get sex. Guys are ruthless about sex especially given the past he is going to use whatever he can. Eventually you had enough and figured out that in a relationship no one OWES anyone and to have sex or fake it when you really don't want to is one step from rape. That you don't want to have sex with him means the problem is not sex it is in the relationship itself. Sex is an event not the environment you are missing something in the relationship that is causing a disconnect in the sex thing.

4: He now tells you that he almost cheated on you blame shifting it on you because you are not giving him sex. This is crazy and wrong he is trying a to guilt or scare you into sex.


So who is right or wrong? Both of you. You need counseling as something in the relationship is wrong and because of this you don't want sex. He needs counseling to understand that pressuring your spouse, guilting your spouse and drunken groping your spouse is not acceptable behavior. Now if you cannot afford counseling I would sit down and have a frank discussion write up the topics you want to talk about with bullet points on the major parts of each topic. Tell him this behavior has to stop, you realize he NEEDS sex but using guilt or pressuring tactics are how you treat enemies not those you love. Tell him you want to work on this but you need him to stop with these tactics as it damages your love for him, let him know you understand he was not trying to hurt you but nevertheless that is what is happening. For you, stop having sex that you don't want, part of the problem is every time you do that you lose some of your self respect which makes you resent him the next time he comes calling. The books I like are 5 Languages of Love, His Needs Her Needs these are only starting points if you can afford MC then go but make sure that before you go he at least understand the current thing you have going on it damaging and needs to stop.
 
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So how many times do you get a girls night for keeping HIS kids for him while he's out of town? And how much money do you get to spend as a thank you putting up with drunk sloppy and disgusting several times a month? And what happens when HIS kids are sick and you are the one sitting up with them, does that qualify for a manicure? Oh, but wait, now your husband early had an affair, I'm sure that's bound to be repaid by a weekend out of town that includes a spa visit and shopping.

Your husband sounds like the biggest a$$hole I've ever heard about who doesn't also slap and or beat his wife and kids! Did you even read what you wrote?

NO! Marriage is not a deal in which services are rendered as payment for services rendered!
1. You stay home to take care of children you BOTH are responsible for.
2. Daddy doesn't get paid to baby sit HIS OWN FREAKIN KIDS!
3. Mom needs to purchase things for herself, for the home, for the kids.Mom doesn't give out BJ's in order to resupply the family or herself.

Good lord woman! Grow a vagina and learn to say NO!

On top of all this misogyny, you H nearly has an affair? Sweetheart, darling, bubbalah, get to a women's group who can support you as you grow a vagina, learn to say NO, and learn to enforce you self worth by enforcing your boundaries.

As far as th kinky sex goes, if it turns you on go for it. If it doesn't do anythingpositive FOR YOU, say N O!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Thanks people. I'm not offended or hurt. But I will say that I do get freakin pissed off when these fights happen. I point out what a jerk he is and he usually agrees and apologizes.
I agree that we probably need counseling.
I do enjoy sex sometimes. And it's not that I don't have a sex drive. I do. And when things are "right" I can enjoy sex with my husband. The problem is that if we have a busy week and we only have sex once, he starts to stress about it and it's obvious. But yes, I agree. If I don't want to have sex with him, even if it's 50% of the time; clearly this needs to be addressed.
I went along with having sex whether I wanted it or not because I felt guilty that I was not the sexually exciting woman that I used to be. But the flipside is that he is not the romantic guy he used to be. And further, he spends so much time stressing and valuing himself based on money... I can't be attracted to that. We have less money now, by the way, obviously because I decided to stay home. I don't care how much money we have. I care that we are making the right decision for our kids and that we- as a couple- are happy and healthy. But, he is miserable that we don't have "enough" money.
Ok. I'll go with the bullet discussion. He knows that he's in the dog house with me, to put it lightly. So none of this will be a surprise.
Oh and yes, he did admit to resenting me while I was sick. We can meet each other on so many levels, after I FIGHT my point with all of my might. He'll admit to wrongdoings and such. But then we go back to the same patterns.
If we can do counseling, I will try. Unfortunately, we live overseas. So, it's not a very easy situation.
Thanks.
I would love to hear more opinions and thoughts on the matter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
techmom, please tell me, how are you dealing with this? For how long? I really would like to talk to other people who are dealing with this.....
 

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techmom, please tell me, how are you dealing with this? For how long? I really would like to talk to other people who are dealing with this.....
How long, all of our married life. I was always LD, didn't have any other partners besides him. Meanwhile, he married me thinking that I was going to be a "swinging from the chandeliers" HD, which was contrary to the evidence presented. He was the love of my life, and I really thought that he was going to unlock this HD inside me. Later I found out that there wasn't one there.

He let himself go over the years, smoking and I lost all attraction for him. Of course he's mad about this, but didn't take heed to my complaints before the sex dropped off. Staying healthy and attractive is very important to me in a marriage, it shows that he cares about how I feel, and that he doesn't take me for granted because I uttered the words "I do" at the altar.

Your hubby sounds like mine because they feel entitled regardless of other factors in the marriage. Someone stated this before, marriage is a living breathing thing you tend to, and people change. Especially over the course of 15-20 years. I love my husband but not in love with him like before. Men don't know that their behavior and attitude in marriage can strain the very thing they value which is the sexual desire. It doesn't last forever, and if you give them duty sex they complain about that too. They want you to want it, not treat it like a 9-5 job.
 

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I'm writing a response to you right now but need some info.

What % of your joint income did you earn before you quit working.

You said that you started a home based business. What % of your joint income do you earn now?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Our children are 2 and 5 1/2. We both worked at the same place, thus our joint salary went down by half when I stopped working. But he is doing some extra work (with little extra time, maybe 30 extra minutes a week) to pull in some more money. He works hard, no doubt.
My home business doesn't pull in a ton of money. Maybe 5-10%. And I started to write a book, which may (hopefully) be a new avenue of employment for me.
I am by no means a lazy SAHM. I keep myself very fit and slim (maybe that is part of the problem...).
I'm sure I'm not the perfect wife. But, I feel that we are in a bad place if I am being told I owe sex. Which, by the way, we have usually 2-3 times a week.
Also, what does my percentage of the income have to do with our sex life? Obviously, everything is somewhat related. But, the fact that I stayed home to take care of our newborn seems a reasonable idea. Getting a nanny for our first born brought me such awful guilt and regret. Sex should have nothing to do with what is best for our kids...
We make enough money to live well. We live overseas in a country where the cost of living is very low. We are also paying off a land mortgage in the US every month. If that gives you any idea how things financially weighs in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
techmom...
My husband did not let himself go. So I'm lucky there. We are both very physically fit and active. We had a very exciting sex-life pre-marriage. I was the second for him, but he was not for me.
I think all of this really does stem back to earlier issues of resentment and entitlement. I was sick for two years and he resented me and grew tired of my complaints, my problems and my constant exhaustion. Once he finally admitted that, I felt relieved. But I think I have really held onto his resentment. I look back at that in anger. So maybe that is problem A.
Then, I'd go out to do some shopping. But not to shop. Just to get away. To get time to myself. I didn't want to be around him or anyone else for that matter. So, there was the next problem. He was mad about me just ditching him. And also mad that I wasn't "putting out" later on. He should have discussed it with me head-on though, instead of building up anger against me.
Sigh.
After reading your story, I see that I probably was a HD. And maybe still am. It's just that, I'm so tired of his versions of rationalizing our relationship. He thinks it's all a science experiment. A triggers B. B only happens after A. You must follow the steps A and B, because studies show this is how things work.... blah blah. Guess that's the other problem. Boring, know-it-all facts. That's all he wants to talk about. I guess we really have gone in different directions....
I'm really sorry techmom. I can't offer any advice. You are right about the entitlement thing. Sex, to him, is totally unrelated to everything else in our days, marriage, relationship, our lives. Sex is a primal need. It has nothing to do with our love for each other. At least, that is the gist I get.
My parents had a miserable marriage and I always tried so hard to ensure I don't follow in their footsteps. Thus, I am trying to "do my best to keep him happy," to keep us happy. But it looks like that was not the right route.
I'll start on my list tonight. I won't be seeing him until a week anyway....
 

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So how many times do you get a girls night for keeping HIS kids for him while he's out of town? And how much money do you get to spend as a thank you putting up with drunk sloppy and disgusting several times a month? And what happens when HIS kids are sick and you are the one sitting up with them, does that qualify for a manicure? Oh, but wait, now your husband early had an affair, I'm sure that's bound to be repaid by a weekend out of town that includes a spa visit and shopping.

Your husband sounds like the biggest a$$hole I've ever heard about who doesn't also slap and or beat his wife and kids! Did you even read what you wrote?

NO! Marriage is not a deal in which services are rendered as payment for services rendered!
1. You stay home to take care of children you BOTH are responsible for.
2. Daddy doesn't get paid to baby sit HIS OWN FREAKIN KIDS!
3. Mom needs to purchase things for herself, for the home, for the kids.Mom doesn't give out BJ's in order to resupply the family or herself.
:iagree:

I would positively refuse to have sex with a foul smelling drunken man. If he wants to get the physical side of your relationship back on track, he needs to cut out the booze, lose his entitlement minded attitude and get his act together. Only then will you have a hope of getting your sex life back to where it should be.
 

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Some of the best sex we had involved enough alcohol to doze a fraternity... Ah, those were the days.

Here is a different suggestion to "train" hubby. Offer to have sex after a few (and I mean a few) drinks such that it feels good and relaxing but neither partner is stoned out of his or her faculties. Do your best to have a good time. Then the next day he plans to go out and get drunk remind him how well your way went vs how his usual .25 BAC goes.

This assumes you can tolerate a couple glasses of wine or 2-3 mixed drinks - no more - and make sure you have the good stuff not 2 Buck Chuck.

That way he can have his cake and eat it too (ok those in the back row be quiet). I am usually not the positive reinforcement type but its worth trying.

Failing this I would have The Talk and express my concerns of the future and all that. But try something like this and see if he is willing to meet you half way.

As for sex for minding his own kids, that is a big no-no. I raised two kids largely on my own and it is a major no no... Try doing more as a family also if you're not doing much, it really brings up the daddy instinct. Other daddy role model friends etc can help too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
John117... thanks for the reply. But you've got it all wrong. Well, sort of wrong.
We both drink a glass of wine a night with dinner. On weekends, more. I'd say we are both big drinkers, but I don't get wasted. I just can't anymore. I can't get over hangovers quickly and I have two kids to take care of the next day. So, we have sex often after a drink or 2 or 3. But I do agree that the benders need to stop.
Also, we do PLENTY as a family. He is a very involved Dad. We go on family holidays to the beach for every vacation and we go away (usually to Hong Kong) for Christmas. We hike together, play video games, run/bike together, read books, cook, do gardening-- all as a family. Does he spend more time out drinking with buddies late at night than I do? Yes. But we usually start the night out all as a group. We go to child friendly restaurants (in our Asian country, these places always have alcohol) and meet up with other friends with kids. The kids have a blast, the adults smooze. But when it's time for the kids to sleep, I always bring them home. He offers to let me stay out. But I don't want to. I'd rather go home, get a good night of sleep, read to my kids and wake up feeling good, not hung over. So, he stays out and comes home smashed. Not every weekend, but enough for me to tire of it.
We have parties at our home often, with adults and kids. We are both very boisterous and socially active with friends.
He's a good Dad. More involved than my father was. He was a great partner during childbirth for both of them (natural). We play sports together on the weekend. He's not a drunken deadbeat. He's just got a bad entitlement issue. And does drink to excess too often.
We have good sex sometimes. I'm just tired of fighting about it when life gets stressful. And I'm tired of feeling like I owe him. This whole "I almost cheated on you" bit is just nuts. I don't deserve it. I've tried hard to remedy our sex-life. But anyway, some of your have made it clear that I need to approach with other tactics...
 

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Thanks for filling the details. It is a bit more difficult to resist the urge to get smashed with male buddies in any culture. If this is the only source of smashing tho would it be safe to discuss with the other wives whose husbands are presumably also getting smashed and compare notes?

What you describe is par for the course where I come from (some place in Europe) but people do not get smashed as often.

If he is health conscious can you point out the long term implications of alcohol? Or get his doctor to discuss?
 

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Our children are 2 and 5 1/2. We both worked at the same place, thus our joint salary went down by half when I stopped working. But he is doing some extra work (with little extra time, maybe 30 extra minutes a week) to pull in some more money. He works hard, no doubt.
My home business doesn't pull in a ton of money. Maybe 5-10%. And I started to write a book, which may (hopefully) be a new avenue of employment for me.
I am by no means a lazy SAHM. I keep myself very fit and slim (maybe that is part of the problem...).
I'm sure I'm not the perfect wife. But, I feel that we are in a bad place if I am being told I owe sex. Which, by the way, we have usually 2-3 times a week.
Also, what does my percentage of the income have to do with our sex life? Obviously, everything is somewhat related. But, the fact that I stayed home to take care of our newborn seems a reasonable idea. Getting a nanny for our first born brought me such awful guilt and regret. Sex should have nothing to do with what is best for our kids...
We make enough money to live well. We live overseas in a country where the cost of living is very low. We are also paying off a land mortgage in the US every month. If that gives you any idea how things financially weighs in.
I'll have to reply further tomorrow as I was only able to get back to this just now.

I asked the percentage of income questions to get some perspective on your h's view of what each of you are contributing as he seems to value income more than anything else.
 

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You can ONLY control you and your actions.
That is news to a variety of professions, from psychologists to drill sergeants and preschool teachers.

If your partner makes your life miserable and you improve yourself and the situation improves, the more power to you. Some of us in the back of the classroom (the dreaded LD Stage IV partner crowd) may want to consider more, ehem, unconventional approaches.
 

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Men find emotional connection via sex.

Your husband wanting sex when drunk is him wanting to fill his desire to connect with you, but because he is drunk his good judgement filters are shutdown and he's running on emotional wants, minus the higher thinking that keeps him from acting like a petulant child.

Btw, there is goodness in the fact that when his social filters are removed by the booze, his reaction us to want to connect sexually, and thus emotionally with you. It shows that you are at the very core of his emotional wants.

As for owning him sex for him doing things, yeah that's bull on the surface, BUT I think if you look deeper what he is really trying to say is that fundamentally spouses have a basic responsibility to take care of one another's sexual and emotional needs. And again, men connection and take emotional support via sex.

So it's not that you owe him for him watching the kids, but you each have a responsibility to take care of those needs as they arise. He's just not found the right way to express that thought, and since the you owe me has worked to meet that need from him, he continues to use it.

Some might advise you cut him off and teach him to leave you alone. I think that wouldn't help your marriage, in fact I think it would harm it seriously,

Think about it, he gets his emotional needs to you largely via sex. If you cut off the sex, he gets cut off from emotional bonding with you. That's the path that results in the two of you becoming farther apart and hurts the marriage.


He doesn't need cutting off, but he does need to grow in how he reaches out to you for his sexual and emotional needs. Unfortunately he won't likely do it on his own - you are going to have to help him.

I'd suggest you introduce a new dynamic which will hopefully replace the way he reaches to you.

First, about the drinking. On nights you think will end up with him drink and horny. Initiate a session, even a quickie earlier in the night. That should give him the emotional connection he is desiring, so when he does get drunk he will already be turn care of. You might even find him drinking far less on such nights, if he's sexually and emotionally content he very well may have less desire for getting drunk,

Now for the you "owe" me stuff.

When he tries that, or you recognize the situation coming together that will result in it, head it off at the pass way ahead. Either initiate sex with him well before, even the night before or let him know when in the next few days you will be looking for him to take care of your sex need.


You may even want to talk gently to him about how he seems to get a real emotional satisfaction from having sex with you. Not in an accusatory way, but more a gentle pointing it out way. Reassure him that its good and normal , and that you are happy that he loves you so much.


Bottom line - your husbands emotional needs from you are heavily met when he has sex with you, very normal for men. He is clumsy about how he addresses that core need. The great news is his need shows he does have a strong desire and emotional love for you.

Make love not war. Other posters will advise you to go to war with him to stop him. Ask yourself does anyone actually win in such a war? Will your love and connection together get stronger or weaker from the war?
 

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Men find emotional connection via sex.

Your husband wanting sex when drunk is him wanting to fill his desire to connect with you, but because he is drunk his good judgement filters are shutdown and he's running on emotional wants, minus the higher thinking that keeps him from acting like a petulant child.

Btw, there is goodness in the fact that when his social filters are removed by the booze, his reaction us to want to connect sexually, and thus emotionally with you. It shows that you are at the very core of his emotional wants.

As for owning him sex for him doing things, yeah that's bull on the surface, BUT I think if you look deeper what he is really trying to say is that fundamentally spouses have a basic responsibility to take care of one another's sexual and emotional needs. And again, men connection and take emotional support via sex.

So it's not that you owe him for him watching the kids, but you each have a responsibility to take care of those needs as they arise. He's just not found the right way to express that thought, and since the you owe me has worked to meet that need from him, he continues to use it.

Some might advise you cut him off and teach him to leave you alone. I think that wouldn't help your marriage, in fact I think it would harm it seriously,

Think about it, he gets his emotional needs to you largely via sex. If you cut off the sex, he gets cut off from emotional bonding with you. That's the path that results in the two of you becoming farther apart and hurts the marriage.


He doesn't need cutting off, but he does need to grow in how he reaches out to you for his sexual and emotional needs. Unfortunately he won't likely do it on his own - you are going to have to help him.

I'd suggest you introduce a new dynamic which will hopefully replace the way he reaches to you.

First, about the drinking. On nights you think will end up with him drink and horny. Initiate a session, even a quickie earlier in the night. That should give him the emotional connection he is desiring, so when he does get drunk he will already be turn care of. You might even find him drinking far less on such nights, if he's sexually and emotionally content he very well may have less desire for getting drunk,

Now for the you "owe" me stuff.

When he tries that, or you recognize the situation coming together that will result in it, head it off at the pass way ahead. Either initiate sex with him well before, even the night before or let him know when in the next few days you will be looking for him to take care of your sex need.


You may even want to talk gently to him about how he seems to get a real emotional satisfaction from having sex with you. Not in an accusatory way, but more a gentle pointing it out way. Reassure him that its good and normal , and that you are happy that he loves you so much.


Bottom line - your husbands emotional needs from you are heavily met when he has sex with you, very normal for men. He is clumsy about how he addresses that core need. The great news is his need shows he does have a strong desire and emotional love for you.

Make love not war. Other posters will advise you to go to war with him to stop him. Ask yourself does anyone actually win in such a war? Will your love and connection together get stronger or weaker from the war?
+1

This thread is quickly going to devolve into a "men vs women" thread, so I urge you to quit paying attention to it now.

@Shaggy has given you some probably the best advice you are likely to get. Take it and run with it.

It seems like in most other respects you have a pretty good marriage. Don't take the advice you will inevitably get about that would lead to blowing it up. Instead, maintain the good parts of your marriage and fix the problems.
 

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goodlookingmom;2249322 Who is right? Do I owe him sex for watching the kids said:
No, you don't owe him sex. No, sex is not a commodity.

Your husband has lost sight of what sex is and I can't advise you how to show him how to get it back.

I now realize just how important sex is in a marriage, heck in life. It is one of the few ways that we have of communicating intimately with each other that is pure delight when it's right for both partners. We're sexual creatures and sex means a lot more to us than mating. That matters too, but it affects our entire sense of well being.

When sex is good, it is a beautiful pleasure. When it's good at someone else's expense (an affair), the sharing side is ruined, and when it's bad, it's alienating.

Hope your husband comes to his senses.
 
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