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Advice on a "Leap of Faith - Forget the Past"

29K views 184 replies 20 participants last post by  3Xnocharm 
#1 ·
Hi

I'll try to provide a summary of the last ~8 years or so - looking for advice.
I have been married 22 years - got married at 23yrs old.
My wife and I have, over the last 8 years, really gotten into a loop of lacking intimacy and sex.
About 5 years ago, I had leaned too much on a woman that I knew for support and to get some of the emotional response I was looking for.
My wife found out of course and knew for months she said before asking me who this person was/etc/etc.
I told her the whole story. No physical affair but surely an emotional one.

About 6 months after that, I decided that the only reasons I was leaning on this lady was fear - fear of discussing the roadblocks in my marriage with my wife. I also had some borderline ED issues occuring at that time.

So I got myself a counselor, made a dedicated effort to get back to the gym to get in better shape, talked to my doctor for an anti-depressant, and talked to an endocrinologist for these ED type symptoms.

Around 2017 we stared couples counseling, at my request, because I was looking for more intimacy/sex/conversation in my marriage - not just single word type answers "oh that's fine / good / nothing much happened today / etc"
These simple replies were around long before I was leaning on this lady for emotional support.
One of the goals I wanted to achieve in counseling was to improve our sex life too. We were averaging about sex once every 3 months. In the start of our relationship too (I had very little self-confidence at the time) and there were 'rules' that were needed. When I would visit her, she would tell me that she "needs to warm up to me first now that I'm here". We didn't have alot of sex in the early part of our relationship. When we were married, there (for many years ~5 or so) was a "no touching rule" that when she got into bed I couldn't touch her for 20 minutes or so. I tried so many times. Even talking to her in text yesterday she said "you always tried back then"
Currently, our sex life has waxed and waned a bit. And has again been on the skids The last time we had sex was in November 2019 and I gave her oral, no intercourse/etc/etc. Even working up to me giving her oral was many years in the making, I wanted to do/try it and she was resistant. One of the things I had asked many times in therapy was for her to initiate sex a bit, just sometimes - let me know that she has desire for me. This happens rarely.
I had been incontact with a divorce lawyer of the last 2 years, and had not done that because I still thought there were things I could do to make her happy. More of simple touch/etc - things she asked for. I believed I was doing them - not out of force but because I enjoy them and she asked for them. For example, kiss in the morning in bed, before I goto work, I love you before I leave the house, text/snapchat during the day with simple messages or kissy faces. So I kept trying to see what I could do, based on what I heard, to be better for her. She also thinks I am way to assertive (I'm sicilian so there is that!) and she was right. I learned alot about how to modulate my voice to a lower softer tone, speak less forcefully, to try to better match what she perceived as non-confrontational. We talked about sex several times in counseling. I had said that we have alot to work on overall, sex is about 6 weeks...so lets not be greedy right now - if we can get to once a month that would be fantastic.

In feb 2020, I brought up again - why we haven't had sex. She said that she needs simple things like "a touch on the arm" or to sit a little closer on the couch. That's all she needs.
I was mad that she says its just these "little things" and I told her it seems like if they were so little, and I've been trying to improve our sex life and intimacy, that you would have mentioned it.
I told her, I thought I had been doing what you asked for. Being more attentive to kiss in the morning, always asking what i can do help with dinner, thanking her for some of things she does around the house, or a meal she makes/etc.
She also then told me that sex had become complex and awkward anyway. I asked her....we have been in therapy.... how long did you feel this way? I've been asking for more intimacy and sharing and knowing your feelings and it seems like you are still holding back critical things that could help us.
So I became increasingly frustrated, thinking back on therapy/etc and thought that enough is finally enough.
Two weeks ago, I said I think we should seperate. I gave her a divorce proposal based on what I had been advised by my lawyer as a starting point/etc.

We just had a conversation tonight where she said things like
Lets just forget the past, put a stake in the ground and move foward.
I thought you only wanted sex 1 time a month, I could probably have it many times a month
When you asked for more sharing - i thought you just meant about my day - that's all. (I specifically said even the therapist has been pushing for deeper feelings).

The conversation loop also becomes "Well if you wanted sex, you could have made the move". I then say "Yes you are definately right, but I have asked you to try a little for me. Reach out so I feel attractive/etc"
I also asked her, tonight "if she really wants sex multiple times a month, and she definately liked the oral from Novemember, why wouldn't you say it was great and I want it again - or anything at all?" Reply was "if you liked giving it to me, I could ask the same question"

I've said recently to her that I love her, and I want to be with her. But I need 100% of my wife. I don't want a glorified roommate.

I told her that I don't know to make any of these pieces fit. I am not sure that I can do a leap of faith, forget the past, and we will just start having more sex over time soon.
I also said that I am terrified about the person I may become over the next 2 to 3 years. I don't want to lean on another woman for emotional support. I don't want to become resentful (well I already am to a degree) and I don't want to become a score keeper. I said that it makes me feel bad about myself that you don't reach out for me. I also said it makes me feel bad that you still hide emotions/thoughts/etc from us - despite a few years of therapy.
She replied, well I am working on it. I am working on speaking up.

Other backround on this. We have two daughters who will be 16 soon.
During the last 20 years, I have built a very successfull business.
I bought us a very nice new home - which has actually accentuated (for me) the issues. Living in this beautiful new home with a wife who hides her emotions from me and this sex standoff makes me feel really bad about myself.
I had started a few years ago, selling off some of my prized tangible items (cars mostly)
I am 95% sure I am not attached to any of the physical things I own (well I do really like the new house!) so I am not worried about losing physical items or money. I can rebuild that eventually.

I am scared that if I do the leap-of-faith that we will still be back in the same boat.
Is this a lightbulb turning point for her? I don't know ....
In my brain - i think of course not. I've had a close friend say to me that I've done enough. I even asked her if she wanted an open relationship (maybe in 2017?) DId she have some sex fantasy or something that she wanted to live out and needed. I would support it - with a man a woman etc. I was grasping at straws there.
In my heart, I'd love to have a marriage that lasts forever.
But I can't do 10 years like we have been doing. I am not even sure I can do 2 without become a person I don't want to be.

What are the thoughts on this? I'd be really interested to ready any parallel stories or advice if someone has it.

Thanks!
 
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#2 ·
So, you threatened the relationship and now she is willing to say what you want to hear in order to stall for time/keep you around permanently. Don't fall for it. In the immortal words of Admiral Akbar "It's a trap!"

If she was really interested in fixing things she'd have mentioned her stated issues with sex in the years of therapy.If she really did want to have sex (with you) multiple times a month, you'd have been having sex multiple times a month. You can't square it because it's bullpucky.
 
#3 ·
Hi

That's probably the most concise summary I could ask for!

I don't believe her ... She drops this huge bomb that sex has been awkward etc. Really? After this long in therapy you mention this after I start asking why we haven't had sex in a while again? She then says she doesn't want to get scolded when she voices her thoughts because isn't that what I am asking for? It seems a little too circular...
 
#4 ·
Hi

That's probably the most concise summary I could ask for!

I don't believe her ... She drops this huge bomb that sex has been awkward etc. Really? After this long in therapy you mention this after I start asking why we haven't had sex in a while again? She then says she doesn't want to get scolded when she voices her thoughts because isn't that what I am asking for? It seems a little too circular...
In the Reddit DeadBedroom sub this circular thing is quite common.

Bottom line is actions, not words. For years her actions told you the truth of how she feels. Her words now are meaningless. If they were true, you wouldn't be here.

Beware hysterical bonding. Lots of DB spouses threaten the relationship, their partner responds by having lots of sex...for a time. Then the relationship stabilizes and the sex dries up because it's unnecessary now that the threat is gone.
 
#5 ·
I read a deadbedroom PDF a few weeks ago... that described very similar to what I've been observing

And your "lots of sex for a while" .. yes that has happened! Well 2 times in a month being lots and then cools right down after the "problem" is resolved...

Yikes...I've been in deep for a while 🙄
 
#6 ·
I read a deadbedroom PDF a few weeks ago... that described very similar to what I've been observing

And your "lots of sex for a while" .. yes that has happened! Well 2 times in a month being lots and then cools right down after the "problem" is resolved...

Yikes...I've been in deep for a while 🙄
Human behavior tends toward patterns. You are seeing the pattern now. The question is, will you break the cycle and stop the pattern repeating?
 
#7 ·
You two were sexually incompatible from the very beginning, and you never should’ve married her because of that. She is giving you the runaround and only telling you what she thinks you want to hear, this is never going to get better in the way that you want it to. I think it’s time you corrected that mistake and divorce her, she has wasted too many of your years already. Go find yourself a happy life without her.




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#9 ·
The time for talk is over. You are at the point where you are about to divorce your wife if you don't see a change. I suggest you stop talking to her about any of this. Simply approach her in a loving manner several times per day such as when you kiss her in the morning. Hug her and hold her hand. Sit next to her on the couch. Put your arm around her. Initiate sex.

If she responds favorably, continue to do this and initiate sex at least twice per week.

If she turns you away or complains, tell her this is why you are seeking a divorce.

I am not recommending divorce, but since you are planning to divorce her if she continues along the same path of disinterest and you don't really want a divorce, you might give this a try and see what happens. She doesn't seem capable of initiation, but you can initiate and see what happens. If she doesn't respond favorably, then at least you gave it a last shot.
 
#11 ·
Well...we talked about this at the start of February when I asked why we hadn't been intimate in a while. She said that she just needed a little more physical touch, a hand on a shoulder things like that. I was a little upset that if it's just a 'simple' thing that she wouldnt bring that up earlier. I got over that and then tried to pay even more attention to small touches or sitting a little closer. She recently told me that she did really like it! I asked ok, well doesn't that make you want to reach out for me. Then she says well my period was erratic so that wasn't a good time. I said ok...but nothing? Kissing? Make out anything? I said it doesn't have to lead to full sex all the time ... So I think we went down that road. She said she needed more time and was just starting to really warm up again. It's like the carrot is always right there and if i only do one more thing I'll get everything I want...
So honestly, why stay in this?

Why put yourself through this any more at all? Just because you love her?

Really???

Unless the divorce will go through....
I agree... I wish the kids were 18 but it doesn't really matter the difference between 16 vs 18 .... It's going to be sad and hard all the way around anyway
 
#12 ·
It will be sad and hard all the way around.

Has she told you she loves you but is not in love with you?

Her actions are far more important than a carrot-rich diet of words.

This dance can last a long time before your partner will tire... you will have to take the lead.
 
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#16 ·





  1. No, she says she loves me very much. We were talking about the gym. She is a runner and is in good shape! She usually doesn't go-to the gym. I usually don't run. I've trained with her to run some 5ks while she has run the 15k or 20k portion of the same race. I even flew us to Antigua for 4 days for the "run in paradise". So I keep asking her once a week, "come to the gym, let's go workout together" her reply consistently was "no I hate the gym". I asked for weeks and weeks recently .. almost 4 months in a row. She said to me talking and in text last night "I didn't know how much value you placed on the gym. If you had said to me that you were feeling really sad because I wasn't going to the gym spend time with you, then I'm sure I would have went" I guess that's a point, maybe I need to ask in a clear fashion providing all of the emotional details for a common simple request like come to the gym with me so we can work out and I'll take you to breakfast after. Not even once a month?
 
#13 ·
This is crap. Nothing but ridiculous excuses from her and hoop jumping for you. At the end of the day what it boils down to is that she doesn’t have real desire for you, or enough respect for you to be honest about it.




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#17 ·
I am always for saving a marriage. But come onnnn she wasn’t even trying. She couldn’t give you any effort at all. You are asking for very very little and she isn’t trying.

If I were you I honestly don’t know what I would do. The problem is, it’s not only about sex you guys have a lack of emotional connection, and at that point there is no point.

I personally think that you should try again. But this time, she needs to do the heavy lifting. She needs to prove to you that she wants this marriage and she is willing to do what it takes. You have needs and wants too and it isn’t all about her all the time. She has forgotten that.

Give her like 4 months. Don’t tell her that, but set it on your calendar. Give her a change to change, stop managing the relationship and controlling everything. Give her a warning that your done being the manager. And see how it goes.
 
#19 ·
I am always for saving a marriage. But come onnnn she wasn’t even trying. She couldn’t give you any effort at all. You are asking for very very little and she isn’t trying.

If I were you I honestly don’t know what I would do. The problem is, it’s not only about sex you guys have a lack of emotional connection, and at that point there is no point.

I personally think that you should try again. But this time, she needs to do the heavy lifting. She needs to prove to you that she wants this marriage and she is willing to do what it takes. You have needs and wants too and it isn’t all about her all the time. She has forgotten that.

Give her like 4 months. Don’t tell her that, but set it on your calendar. Give her a change to change, stop managing the relationship and controlling everything. Give her a warning that your done being the manager. And see how it goes.

Oh my god you're killing you're me 😞
Two weeks ago, the counselor we were using said that she wants to treat this as a marriage in crisis. And that we need a commitment for 90 days that we're going to put everything we have into the marriage. No one's going to send anybody home no one's going to go to a parent nobody's going to have an affair etc. So I said yes I'm a thousand percent in and she said yes 100%. the therapist also gave us a book recommendation to read, the rules of a modern marriage. I don't like to read I usually read only for information. She reads all the time. I read that book 300 some pages in a day and a half. She only got the page 44 by the time we had our next weekly therapy meeting. During the therapy meeting I start a talking about this 90-day and that I'm glad to have this dedicated time we're really going to focus. Apparently this was news to everyone. even the therapist thought that the 90-day thing was my idea and you can't really tie any kind of timelines to this stuff. I'm on the video call with the therapist and my wife and I'm defending this Twilight zone reality like a kind of crazy person. She said say that she will work on anything. I was pressing this issue of this 90-day, and I even said we didn't make any decision as to what would happen after 90 days just that we would all see how we feel after 90 days. And I was just out there in the breeze on this whole thing. Feeling like an idiot. later on that evening she said that she didn't even want to know when the 90 days was up because she couldn't even think about it. So I guess we kind of tried to do a couple month crash course put everything in type of idea. And that sort of fizzled in a week. She says that she'll work on things and improve and work on her assertiveness for what her feelings.. I was saying to a friend if my kids were 18 there would be 0000 chance of tolerating this whatsoever. Kids are almost 16 now. I could probably do another two more years but to what point?
 
#27 ·
People say a lot of stuff when they’re faced with a divorce they don’t want. Whether they can consistently put it all into action — forever — is another story. I’m not a fan of separating to work on a marriage. You tend to be on your best behavior when you only see your partner now and then. That gives you the illusion the problems are gone when they likely aren’t.
 
#42 ·
I think she is going to start packing items this weekend to move into the second house we own. It was up for sale .. so it will be taken off the market.

Man this was years in the making for me...countless decisions etc. She had been saying all kinds of things recently ... Like how she wants to have sex 2 or 3 times a week, needs to be more assertive, voice her feelings.... essentially everything I had asked for her to do for years. So why now??? Why after 2+ years of therapy and me asking many times ... Why now? She said she just wanted me to be more affectionate to her as well.

I hope this isn't a bad choice...but I've thought about it over and over. I just want more from my marriage ... I don't think I have unreasonable asks...I'm not perfect and could do things better...but when you are literally saying to your wife "please, let me know what's going on... if you like something like a kiss or touch ... Tell me... anything" literally have said this many times

Sucks all the way around. I hope my kids don't hate me
 
#44 ·
I think she is going to start packing items this weekend to move into the second house we own. It was up for sale .. so it will be taken off the market.

Man this was years in the making for me...countless decisions etc. She had been saying all kinds of things recently ... Like how she wants to have sex 2 or 3 times a week, needs to be more assertive, voice her feelings.... essentially everything I had asked for her to do for years. So why now??? Why after 2+ years of therapy and me asking many times ... Why now? She said she just wanted me to be more affectionate to her as well.

I hope this isn't a bad choice...but I've thought about it over and over. I just want more from my marriage ... I don't think I have unreasonable asks...I'm not perfect and could do things better...but when you are literally saying to your wife "please, let me know what's going on... if you like something like a kiss or touch ... Tell me... anything" literally have said this many times

Sucks all the way around. I hope my kids don't hate me
Brother, would you please ****ing stop talking this way!!!!

Just stop it. Look, you did every single thing you should have done. You were more than patient, you gave her a million chances. Frankly, if you did something wrong you were weak. Very weak about all of this.

I hope you read "No more mr. nice guy", if not do it and read it about 10 times so maybe some of it will sink in.

Look, one of about 3 things are happening and none of them are your fault.

1) She I having an affair, and she could be, you really don't know.
2) She has lost sexual attraction to you, or she never had any real attraction to you.
3) She is actually asexual or for some reason lost all of her libido...

And look, with her lack of communication NONE OF THEM ARE YOUR FAULT.

Please wake up and grow up. Please stop being such a doormat...
 
#43 ·
It not a bad choice, it’s the right one. All those words are just her blowing smoke. Worthless. She has proven time and again who she is.. you need to believe her and stop getting sucked in. Congrats on making progress!!




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#47 ·
Yes, I has friend tell me that they would "say anything" essentially to keep me. So that may be part of what's going on. I still think she loves me...but it's a muted love ... Been that way for a while. Now that I've committed to changing things ... It's scary all the way around. For me too....I'm not too fearful of uncertainty but this is going to test my limits for sure
 
#48 ·
Maybe she actually does love you. But for sure her version of love isn’t what you need. She’ll promise you all you ever wanted to keep you from divorcing her but the odds of that lasting are likely zero. Permanent change is too hard for most people to continue on with.

Continue looking ahead to your new life.
 
#49 ·
Maybe she actually does love you. But for sure her version of love isn’t what you need. She’ll promise you all you ever wanted to keep you from divorcing her but the odds of that lasting are likely zero. Permanent change is too hard for most people to continue on with.

Continue looking ahead to your new life.

I am sad about this....of course...I was talking to her the other day...
She said that "everyone sees how much she does for me"
I recognize that.... the house, the kids, dinners, how she can navigate around my work stress... I always say thank you for these things too. Maybe not always but certainly on a weekly basis. And I do alot for her, stability, home, trips, allowing her to be completely flexible with her time since she doesn't really have to work, trips, cars, etc. We both do alot for each other.
But I said to her... In the dark at night when no one around and these material things don't matter... I just wanted an "I love you" and some kissing/etc from her. Just a little bit a few times a year... She says relationships ebb and flow and adult relationships you have discussions. She says no one can live Up to my ideals ... Like I want someone doting on me 24/7 i do not! I just wanted to know, sometimes, that she would reach for me.. in the dark when nothing else mattered and it was just us. It's very sad for me....we have been together for over 20years.... :(
 
#50 ·
Like many people do, she gives you what she wants to be given herself and not what you want her to give. People who do that usually think they love their spouse more than anyone else possibly could. But they don’t love their spouse the way their spouse needs so their way doesn’t work. And then they’re shocked when divorce is mentioned because they don’t think their failings are that important.
 
#52 ·
I think it's alot more like this article


I see her act more openly with our kids but it doesn't quite translate to me. It never really did ... Even early on with the "I need to warm up to you, no touching rule, ok ok ok too much touching touch overload" these are things she would say. All the time. Now she hasnt said those in many years but I think the expression has changed. We did have "alot" more sex back then because I would always try and try. Almost on a nightly basis. Now that I want a more balanced (or even 80/20) sex life...it's fallen off and cliff and with it went the parts of the romantic connection I felt for her and resentment sets in.
 
#53 ·
I've read a couple books...subtle art of not giving a **** and many other more serious relationship books. One of the themes was "don't be needy" stop putting the value of yourself to be dependent on the reaction of another. I took that to heart and tried to lessen my need for attachment or validation or to feel a sense of 'youre the one'. But I still want that....I don't think it's wrong... I'm not a nut job and I don't need someone praising my every step..god that would be annoying and I wouldn't believe it!!

I still want someone to show that outward love to me...maybe she isn't the one to do that.

She turns my questions around all the time basically saying "well you could do more of that too" on nearly every point. It's infuriating...but I keep that under control..pause..take a breath or two..and respond in a mostly calm (definitely not yelling) manner

It's seems the more I adopted this idea of "lessening my dependce" it allowed her to pull away and allowed me to gain even more belief that I don't need her to feel good..
So what the hell am I doing here providing this lifestyle...
 
#54 ·
You know, almost every single person has tried to tell you what is going on.

And you dig deep, do research, and what ever else, to tell us, "No, it is not her, it is me, I have done something wrong. This wonderful women that does not love me, really does love me, and you guys are all wrong.

No sir, I am sorry you are and have always been in denial.

I don't know what to tell you. But maybe some hard truth may help.

My Fiancé is 62 and I am 55. Now maybe you cannot understand but she is a hotty, and I mean super hot. For her age she is stunning. (Just saying but she actually has perfect tits. They do not sag, not too bid, NOT to small, just perfect.)

I have banged her 3 times TODAY. NOT THIS Weekend, just today. I lost count this weekend.

You see that is a sign of a woman that loves me, and loves to get ****ed by me.

You don't understand what that is like because your wife does not love you, never has and never will.

What will it take for you to wake up to what reality is. WHAT!!!!

Please wake up brother, there is so much more to life than what you think there is...
 
#55 ·
You know, almost every single person has tried to tell you what is going on.

And you dig deep, do research, and what ever else, to tell us, "No, it is not her, it is me, I have done something wrong. This wonderful women that does not love me, really does love me, and you guys are all wrong.

No sir, I am sorry you are and have always been in denial.

I don't know what to tell you. But maybe some hard truth may help.

My Fiancé is 62 and I am 55. Now maybe you cannot understand but she is a hotty, and I mean super hot. For her age she is stunning. (Just saying but she actually has perfect tits. They do not sag, not too bid, NOT to small, just perfect.)

I have banged her 3 times TODAY. NOT THIS Weekend, just today. I lost count this weekend.

You see that is a sign of a woman that loves me, and loves to get ****ed by me.

You don't understand what that is like because your wife does not love you, never has and never will.


What will it take for you to wake up to what reality is. WHAT!!!!

Please wake up brother, there is so much more to life than what you think there is...
Look, I totally get where you're coming from, having dealt with this stuff for 42 years. BUT I think it's a bit wrong to state that a wife who doesn't love to f**k doesn't love her husband. She may not love her husband in the way the husband needs to be loved, and she may be clueless about marriage being something where you have to look out for each other's needs and there's value in that, value that should make it special for you even if it means you're doing something that isn't something you'd do on your own or for yourself. But she may in fact "love" her husband very much. Sex is not the only way in which love shows itself.

I am not, in any way, shape or form, suggesting that a lack of sexual desire for ones partner isn't a potential and legitimate deal killer for marriage. But if we want to put our best case forward for solving lack of desire & participation, we shouldn't be telling someone that their problem is they don't love you. That's just not going to get anywhere with them.
 
#57 ·
I hear what they are saying.. I don't believe she doesn't love me so I'm disregarding that but I get how it could appear that way through a message post.

It's hard for me to hear I am not compassionate and i don't apologize.

I have read so many books, and therapy and couples therapy which were all my ideas. Asking how I can be a better partner, tell me what you feel or share your thoughts.... I can only do so much.....maybe I've done way too much.
 
#60 ·
I

I have read so many books, and therapy and couples therapy which were all my ideas. Asking how I can be a better partner, tell me what you feel or share your thoughts.... I can only do so much.....maybe I've done way too much.
No, what you’ve done is set yourself up to be a good partner when you find the right person.




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#71 ·
yes, its easier to see them after a long process of decisions and trial-and-error. but in the moment, I don't want to be rash/etc. people have bad days (maybe bad years??)
plus she is pretty - so i didn't want to rock the boat too much! earlier on, when we met, i had a large inferiority complex (due to my upbringing/school experience/etc). so there was no way i was going to break up with a pretty girl who would still have sex with me. i'm in a different place now for a variety of reasons... but even through that ... i tried to be very aware of "is this my ego talking?? really??" i think we both need better matches in the future....
 
#80 ·
Apparently I am an embarrassment as well I found out tonight.
About 9 years ago, we were at a birthday party of one of her friends. Outside bonfire. I vaguely remember not having anyone to talk to and being cold...so I went to the car for 10 or 15mins to warm up... Apparently that was highly embarrassing.

Literally 17 years ago, we were going to meet friends at a bar. I was stuck at work under extreme pressure... thought I was going to be sued. I was working late and she went to meet friends...i then said **** this... quickly changed and went to meet them. I was about 30mins late.

Wow.... I am speechless
 
#81 ·
Apparently I am an embarrassment as well I found out tonight.
About 9 years ago, we were at a birthday party of one of her friends. Outside bonfire. I vaguely remember not having anyone to talk to and being cold...so I went to the car for 10 or 15mins to warm up... Apparently that was highly embarrassing.

Literally 17 years ago, we were going to meet friends at a bar. I was stuck at work under extreme pressure... thought I was going to be sued. I was working late and she went to meet friends...i then said **** this... quickly changed and went to meet them. I was about 30mins late.

Wow.... I am speechless
People seize on strange things when they're grasping at straws, trying to justify what they've done. It's tempting to give those things more importance than they actually have/had, but the reality is that they are not the straw that broke the camel's back. Instead they're an indication of how absurd that person's position is. To them, it actually makes sense. But it blatantly fails the 3rd party test. If they said those things to someone else, as example of how embarrassing it's been to be around you, that person, friend of foe, would be thinking... wft?

Anyway, I don't have to read anything else you've written to know you have the moral high ground here.
 
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