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A safe person

2850 Views 16 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  KathyBatesel, 
O
Lyris said:
Although the initial catalyst to our coming back together was expressed verbally and we managed to talk and explain things that helped us understand, further talking us not helpful. My husband finds it excruciatingly difficult to express his emotions verbally, although he feels them very deeply. I, on the other hand, will talk forever, examining each feeling and motivation minutely.

For years I've tried to get him to do that too. But I've recently realised that he hates it so much it's counter productive; I know him well enough to improve things for him without him having to expressly ask; he actually values any change I make much less if he has to ask for it; and the main thing he needs is to feel totally loved, safe and that he can trust me with his inner life.

So I've changed things by myself. I am trying to open myself fully to him, as he is now, not judging or wishing he was different or more like he used to be. I'm not going to ask anything of him emotionally, I'm just going to love him as purely and constantly as I can so that he can feel I'm a safe person for him again.
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This hit me so hard yesterday... I read this and just burst out crying (I don't cry... almost ever) because I suddenly realized why it is my wife's behavior at times hurts so badly and she probably has no idea. And I couldn't stop the flow or quit sobbing for quite a while, till I finally managed to get my mind off and away from it.

That bold part... From the time I was probably 8 years old, my parents always "took over" things I got interested in. As in, directed, controlled, but not "just supported".

By the time I reached my teens, I had "learned" to keep anything that really, REALLY mattered to me to myself. That way I could not be mocked, teased, or have it taken out of my control by my parents (especially father). My dad thought that if you got emotional over something, the way to deal with it was to mock you for doing so, so you'd learn to toughen up and 'be a man'. Or, if you got really interested in something, or really wanted to do something he didn't think was either a path to work or earning money or other "adult" thing, he mocked and ridiculed it.

When I met my wife, and got married, for the first time, I had a relationship in which I could confide, and it never, ever be used or referenced in any way that caused me pain.

I can't say when, exactly, because it's been over a number of years, but my W has done that. I don't think overtly, but in small ways, which triggered the same behavior... Anything I care deeply about, I keep very closely and carefully hidden, so I can't be vulnerable over it. And, of course, my wife has come to realize that I just don't share anything that has any emotional impact, don't talk about it, don't ever touch the subject. To her, it's rejection. To me, it's self preservation - my defense against pain.

I don't know how to deal with this. Or what to do. I've tried to explain it to her, but she just mocks the idea and gets angry and defensive. Probably because I don't communicate it well.

I don't know what to do or how to deal with this. I can't tell you the number of times I wished I had someone to start over and have that "safe place" again, even if it meant someone else. But, it's something I poison my own relationships with. I don't think that divorcing and trying ( that would seem futile, I have the hardest time on earth establishing a romantic relationship, it's just too hard to be that vulnerable) again is the answer... I need to fix me and the relationship I'm in...

What to do here? I have no idea... I need help...
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I think you are part way there, just recognising what it is that is causing grief is a huge thing.

I am going to counselling for some issues and my SO asked if at some stage he could come along to learn some strategies or what to do if my issue is triggered. This gesture in itself blew me away, that he cared that much.

Is it possible for you to seek some counselling and then get your wife on board later?

I get the "safe place" reference thing. It was something I said to SO very early on, I asked him if I was safe to be who and I am to get through my issues with him by my side. He wrapped his arms around me and said "yes".
He knows that I am his safe place too.

I hope you can find that with your wife.
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M
oldgeezer said:
I've tried to explain it to her, but she just mocks the idea and gets angry and defensive. Probably because I don't communicate it well.
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My husband could have written your post. It's taken me years of work on myself to be able to not only be 'safe' but to find a ***** in his armor. He's opening up to me now but it didn't come without a lot of effort on my part.

I quoted this part of your post because it's significant. A safe person is one who accepts you as you are, doesn't mock you, isn't angry or defensive. I'm human so yes I still get upset with my husband however I'm able to communicate those feelings without destroying him in the process.

Now my question is a chicken/egg scenario. Is she angry because you're not emotionally available or are you emotionally unavailable because she's angry? Who pushed over the first domino? In my case it was me. I was angry and he checked out as a method of self preservation.
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Chris Taylor
My wife went from being a safe person to one I could never talk to. And this created even more issues because if I was upset/angry/questioning, I could never bring it up.

Look into "Your Perfect Right". It is a book on assertiveness. What is important is that YOU have to feel comfortable addressing issues and can't be swayed by how someone else handles you doing that. It has helped me (along with a lot of therapy/marriage counselors :) )
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Mavash. said:
Now my question is a chicken/egg scenario. Is she angry because you're not emotionally available or are you emotionally unavailable because she's angry? Who pushed over the first domino? In my case it was me. I was angry and he checked out as a method of self preservation.
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I have no idea. This has been brewing enough years that I have no idea. Between how emotions have such dramatic effect on my physiology and how much being vulnerable scares me... I can't honestly say. I suspect it mostly started after my first business failed, my mother died, and we went through bankruptcy and eviction and some really bad stuff, some of which I didn't cope with well - all in rapid fire.

I mostly need, at this moment, to be able to deal with my relationship with my wife. I avoid everything that's emotionally "loaded" these days, but I didn't when I had that "safe person". Perhaps that explains why I have struggled so hard to be hers, and never push back and have learned to do my utmost to never hurt hers.

I know she thinks my passivity (what it looks like) is about me not caring. It's precisely the opposite. I can't address what and who I care about the most right now.
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O
I suppose I should use this thread as an example. I can talk about this, because I don't know any of you, and have no invested interest in any of you. I can't imagine talking to a soul I know about it right now. I guess maybe I just don't trust anyone at all right now.

Ugh. That seems so awful.
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Oldgeezer -

I think you need to work on having some healthy boundaries. Instead, it sounds as though you have a kind of "all or nothing" mentality. Either you share it all - or you share nothing.

Perhaps you could find a way to share....to a point? If something is painful or hurtful, you need to be able to stand your ground. You need to be able to communicate that the other person is crossing a line....yes, your spouse, but this can apply to anyone.

If your spouse (or your parents or your friends or even a stranger) has respect for you - they will learn to respect your boundaries.
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SimplyAmorous
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Please click on the video in the 1st line of this thread ....it's 20 minutes long & all about Vulnerability...This IS the "shame" Researcher .... you will learn MANY struggle as you are, you are not alone.....I tried to do a little outline of what she spoke in my thread......
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html


This is a great book about this issue ~ same author Brene Brown

Amazon.com: The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are : Books
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TiggyBlue
I can TOTALLY relate to what your saying and was the same way for a long time, once I learned how to feel safe in myself I stopped feeling so vulnerable to pain.
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oldgeezer said:
I know she thinks my passivity (what it looks like) is about me not caring. It's precisely the opposite. I can't address what and who I care about the most right now.
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OMG you are so like my husband it's uncanny!! I thought my husband didn't care either. He's also very passive. The irony is he didn't think I cared either. We were two clueless people in love who had NO idea how to be intimate with each other. Both so fearful of getting hurt that we put walls up so thick and so high.

Now in his defense it wasn't safe for him to open up to me. I would have hurt him had he tried before I got help in the form of individual counseling.

It sounds like you could use some 'help' too. I know my husband could sure use some. But in our case it's okay because I will take care of him but you don't have that and I think that's sad.
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K
I don't have any advice for you. I just wanted to say that I admire your candor. My husband, too, is very much like you and I struggle to show him I am his safe place so that he will open up to me. We aren't that far out from thebeginning of our relationship (8 years together, 4 married) and I can still remember when I was that person to him. Just like you, the more invested he is in the relationship the more he guards himself and withdraws and from my perspective the result is that those who are supposed to be closest to him are actually the ones he keeps at the greatest distance.

It is incredibly difficult and frustrating to be on the other side, desperately loving someone and wanting nothing more than for them to understand your love and your desire to share their soul with them. Sometimes people with good intentions are misguided in their approach and I would bet that your wife shares a lot of your emotions but what you lack is an understanding of each others true intentions and emotions. A lot of people look only at the act, and not at its context or how it may have been intended.

I feel for you, just like I feel for my husband. Even when we don't communicate, I am acutely aware of his raw emotion on a cerebral level and I feel his pain. And it makes me hurt even more when I know he's hurting and he refuses to share his pain/joy/anxiety with me. It is hard not to see it as being pushed away because there is something inherently wrong with you, your not good enough for him, or he just doesn't care.

Going through a lot of my own soul searching recently, I have come to be a little softer towards my husband in this regard recently. I realized that for as much as I don't understand him, he doesn't understand me and I don't think either of us truly understand ourselves, if that even makes sense. Its hard to see the full impact your actions have on another human being when you are unable to understand why you have certain reactions in the first place and what your own preconceptions are.
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SimplyAmorous said:
Please click on the video in the 1st line of this thread ....it's 20 minutes long & all about Vulnerability...This IS the "shame" Researcher .... you will learn MANY struggle as you are, you are not alone.....I tried to do a little outline of what she spoke in my thread......
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I watched the video in the thread linked.

And a mountain of other things I don't have time to detail.

For the first time in a long time, I'm launching on a journey, without a roadmap, just some ideas...

You have no idea how incredibly difficult this is for me, I don't do things without knowing ahead of time what I"m going to be doing.

But, I've taken to heart a lot of what I've read and learned...

She arrives on a plane in less than three hours.

No more covert contracts, no expectations without communicating them, and I'm willing to go through the pain of rejection if I have to - not something I was willing to do 3 months ago.

This will have a very good... or very very bad end. It feels like taking a space flight, and taking the classes to be an astronaut along the way... But that's the curve life has thrown me.
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Chris Taylor
Here's what happened to me...

First, I was always the kind of guy who never made waves, never said no, never argued, never voiced an opinion, never disagreed. My wife came from a mother-dominated family so she was naturally dominant and it fit well with my style.

Any time I objected to something, it was never safe to do so. I got shot down, sometimes belittled, so I never communicated my disatisfaction about how Imwas being treated.

After some therapy, I started opening up. I became more assertive, had an opinion, was not afraid to voice my opinion. What happened? My wife hates it. "You've changed." she says, and not in a good way.

But you now something? I feel better about myself. My marriage may still be struggling, but being able to open up and communicate without fear of being put down is worth it.
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SimplyAmorous
oldgeezer said:
I watched the video in the thread linked.

And a mountain of other things I don't have time to detail.

For the first time in a long time, I'm launching on a journey, without a roadmap, just some ideas...

You have no idea how incredibly difficult this is for me, I don't do things without knowing ahead of time what I"m going to be doing.

But, I've taken to heart a lot of what I've read and learned...

She arrives on a plane in less than three hours.

No more covert contracts, no expectations without communicating them, and I'm willing to go through the pain of rejection if I have to - not something I was willing to do 3 months ago.

This will have a very good... or very very bad end. It feels like taking a space flight, and taking the classes to be an astronaut along the way... But that's the curve life has thrown me.
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You are very good at expressing your feelings articulately Old Geezer..... I love your posts :smthumbup:... to do this with your wife as freely as you write.... YOU NEED THIS ..... There is a book entitled "Feel the Fear and do it anyway"... have this your new attitude....push through it. It WILL become easier.

We must let go of the expectation that she will be as receptive as you may think up in your mind (we all overplay these things)... Rejection comes to everyone...being our authentic selves is risky...

Becoming that ASSERTIVE man before her, like Chris Taylor explained ...even if the wife still wants to complain a little...he has reached new heights - HE feels better about himself... this is HUGE... Whether his wife will admit this or not, she likely has more respect for him even.

We don't always get the reaction we want (not at all), but we can determine how WE REACT to their reactions.

Stand tall, stand strong.
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tiredandout
I have been in your shoes as well. Too afraid to talk to my husband, who from my perspective appeared to only get enraged over me sharing my feelings, needs or wants. From his perspective I was being frustratingly quiet, communicating unclearly and holding unto hurts until they came out in a big bundle of mess that hurt his feelings.

For me, the chicken or the egg discussion is irrelevant. My husband loves to play that game, but I no longer do. I have read dozen books, am journalling my feelings to air them out, am going to IC and learning so much more every week. I don't care what he does to help himself, that's not my responsibility. I can only change myself. Due to that my behavior towards him changes too, and in fact he will be forced to either learn to adjust to it — or let go.

You're doing exactly the right thing. Jumping to the unknown is always scary as h€ll, but it always leaves you moved, a changed person afterwards. Do it for you, and you will be better off in the end no matter what happens.

I wanted to write to remind you of this:
Don't be too hard on yourself. Don't expect perfection from yourself, not even in this.

It took me a long time from recognizing the issue to starting to work on the issue and even more time to actually learning how to effectively deal with the issue. And I'm still learning. And some days I still can't say what I would want to be brave enough to say. But that's okay too. I am aware of the twisted beliefs and negative inner voices that I have, which limit me expressing my own feelings directly. In order to get any better I first needed to name them, and then I needed to show them some compassion.

Once I have accepted them, I can tell them: "Thanks for your input, however, I'm going to be open about this now. Fear not. It will work out better in the end."

Before that acceptance I was just trying to fight fear of vulnerability with another fear — fear of failing at it.

Strength and courage your journey.
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Lyris
I just saw this, OG I really like the way you write and express yourself.

I came to my own realisation in a variety of ways, but one of the key things for me was reading some of Mavash's posts about her husband and how she worked to build his trust in her. I also read a line in a book that was something like "She often made the mistake of assuming because [her husband] didn't show emotions, he didn't feel them".

I know my husband feels things very deeply, but I am still capable of underestimating them, or assuming they're not there, even after more than 20 years of loving him.

Maybe your wife gets defensive or angry from guilt. I remember when it all came out, discovering just how terrible my husband had been feeling for so long devastated me. I had been mostly oblivious, which was a big ego-blow for someone like me, as I'd always prided myself on being empathetic and emotionally intuitive. I can imagine if I had been in a more vulnerable or less clear-sighted state, I could have reacted by defending myself or blame-shifting. It's very painful to know how catastrophically you have been failing the person you love so much.

Wishing you strength.
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KathyBatesel
OG, I am just brainstorming here. If you find something you can use, great. If you don't feel any of it will help, ignore it....

Your wife is aware that you're "closed off," of course. What you perceive as threatening and what she perceives may not match up, though. Would you be able to set aside five minutes per day to just cuddle with her and confide one thing that might feel "unsafe" but that really isn't *that* big of a deal? For instance, you might say, "I felt incompetent when I didn't know how to fix the toaster today" but not try to delve into the huge relationship problems you're having that could be used against you later. Listen to her responses, and validate them even if you don't agree. "I'll give some thought to that" is a good response if you don't feel immediate agreement.

Considering the intimacy problems you guys are having, this might be a good way to reconnect before attempting to have sex. "I thought about you a lot while you were gone. Even though we may not be getting along as well as we'd like, you're very important to me."

If she has a positive response to the sharing side of you, you may find yourself willing to confide something a little bigger and more intimate next week. And so on.
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