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This is kinda working for me right now -- not obsessing about it 24/7. Wondering etc..it is helping clear my head in a lot of ways.

My DW SIL is in town for the weekend. She is now divorced for 2 years. I asked her about it last night casually. Because she does not believe in premarital sex has no plans of dating again and sites her deep relationship with God as satisfying her needs. I only mention it because of the shared DNA. She repeatedly said "marriage is hard" and people change. Her EXH was kinda a loser and brought zero to the marriage. And I think she is kinda a man hater now - at least a little bit.
I have nothing to offer as far as a solution. Having lived through sexless marriage I remember when desperate telling my wife that every time we don’t when we could, is gone forever. Guess what? I got a medical issue that has ended ( maybe not forever) my ability to get an erection. I’m not sure what that has done for her, but I harbor a great deal of resentment. We have sex a little more often, as best we can, but I’m sure it’s from guilt.
DO SOMETHING TO SOLVE THE ISSUE!
 

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Discussion Starter #443
I really understand. To be honest I had a p0rn issue,she saw it as cheating.
She all but cut me off for a while. I'm recovering. However,in 2009-2010 our sex life went south ,we dropped from 42- 55 times a year to last year less than 12,this year 3 times maybe.the reason was "I have cold sores" sex hurts yadda yadda yada.She has no fantasies. It is last on the "to do list"
  • Only because it is her obligation as my wife.we have been married 46+years for a while I gave up.and she said "What's wrong" I may have unloaded on her,Our sex life is just this side of non existent.this has got to change,either you don't care about us any more or,the other choice I think you know what that is. At one point I thought she was steppin' out. all of the red flags were there. she was not. I'm sure.
Where are things at as of today?
 

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Discussion Starter #444
I have nothing to offer as far as a solution. Having lived through sexless marriage I remember when desperate telling my wife that every time we don’t when we could, is gone forever. Guess what? I got a medical issue that has ended ( maybe not forever) my ability to get an erection. I’m not sure what that has done for her, but I harbor a great deal of resentment. We have sex a little more often, as best we can, but I’m sure it’s from guilt.
DO SOMETHING TO SOLVE THE ISSUE!
I am. No sex is working. She is starting to realize things are bad. When she finally asks “What’s up?” We will have the conversation we’ve needed to have a loooong time ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #445
Ok so. I have a question. You want your sex life to be satisfying and have her participate and you aren't just happy with an orgasm. What is you didn't get an orgasm at all? Would you be happy then? What is your wife just humped your leg and you never got a hard on or an orgasm but you didn't have to do any work. She just humped your leg rubbing herself up and down on your knee until she came? Would that be ok? Probably not.

LIsten a long time ago in this thread you admitted your wife has 10% orgasm or less with lately being less. Then you want more sex. Why? Why would she want more sex? Sex is supposed to be something enjoyable, sex should be orgasmic more often than not. You are getting yours but she isn't. Of course she is unmotivated. For her sex is a chore. Something she has to do for you to be happy but not something for her at all. You are treating her like a blow up doll. So she is acting like a blow up doll.

Some people have asked for specifics and you've glossed over those. First you say she is unhappy with things outside the bedroom. What things? What is her needs for feeling connected?

Second make the next several times you have sex about her orgasm. No matter what that takes. Even if you don't get one. Oral on her may or may not be the answer. She comes first is pretty much just about oral on the woman. Not every woman likes that. Most women do not orgasm from PIV alone.

Your wife is probably sexually repressed and doesn't even know what she would like. Women can also get very self conscious when the focus is on them. I might suggest using her starfish as a tool. Buy a blindfold, and some other toys like a vibrator, dildo. Have her lay on the bed and put the blindfold on. Specifically request she just lie back and not look. Tell her you need to know when something feels good let her know that if she doesn't feel comfortable talking maybe she could make some sound when you are getting warmer. Then work her over. You aren't allowed to use your penis until she has an orgasm. Tips. If you are going to do oral on her then put the dildo in it gives the vaginal walls something to grip. If you use the vibrator don't just stick it on the clitoris and leave it that can be way too intense.

Thing is she might be low drive, she might not be attracted to you or she could just have never really had good sex. Bad sex or mediocre sex for a women just doesn't do much for us. You admit that your sex life if just her laying there while you get on, get off and then done. Ask your self what's in it for her. You are basically asking her to just take one for the team once a week. Then you want to complain that she isn't doing enough for you. What the hell are you doing for her? Many women need more warm up and energy on their orgasm to achieve it then men. Fair? maybe not. But you find a good regular orgasm for her and you might just find she is more willing and adventurous because she then would have skin in the game. Also I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned responsive desire. That is when a women doesn't go around horny, doesn't think about sex, but warms up after foreplay and such has started. It often takes 10 to 20 minutes for the motor to start running but then they enjoy sex. It doesn't sound like the kind of sex you are having is quality sex for you or HER.
I’v done variations of practically everything you suggested. And for 2O years or so she has controlled our sex life. It has mostly if not exclusively been about trying to get her off. My needs have always been last in the list. And she has never asked “What do you like?? Want?” We are going without for now.
 

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Discussion Starter #446
There is a reason why the "NO MORE SEX" from the the HD person might be effective. Because, for years, the LD offender (LD does not = "offender" but in this case it appears to) depended on using the HD partner's HD against him or her. The consistency of the HD partner allowed the LD person to believe they could continue as-is forever. Their world was solid. Not really much to worry about.

But when the HD partner takes sex off the table, the LD person may wake up and smell the coffee. What's changed, or what might be about to change? HD person is suspected to not be able to change their ways, right? So something serious might be afoot.

Hey, just sayin', it's been at least somewhat effective for me. My wife got really shaken up, really badly, when sex became something I wanted only on my own terms, denying her gatekeeper status. I think so much of this is about control, and control is addictive. @Marriednatlanta 's wife has held a ton of power over the years. As has my wife. If you stop playing the LD person's game, things can change.

Again, this is not an indictment against all LD folk. Lots of reasons for LD that have nothing to do with control or insensitivity or selfishness.
It’s working. Slowly. I will have to turn down sex soon because she will eventually ask about it. Then I will say “let’s talk”.
 

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I’v done variations of practically everything you suggested. And for 2O years or so she has controlled our sex life. It has mostly if not exclusively been about trying to get her off. My needs have always been last in the list. And she has never asked “What do you like?? Want?” We are going without for now.
Look if for 20 years you have been working to get her to orgasm then it wouldn't happen less than 10% of the time. I get that she has controlled frequency I'm not sure how she could control everything since you are a participant. Your needs are last? Do you not get to orgasm during sex?

Anyway I guess the rest are correct. Just divorce this is going nowhere.
 

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Discussion Starter #449
Look if for 20 years you have been working to get her to orgasm then it wouldn't happen less than 10% of the time. I get that she has controlled frequency I'm not sure how she could control everything since you are a participant. Your needs are last? Do you not get to orgasm during sex?

Anyway I guess the rest are correct. Just divorce this is going nowhere.
Yes, my needs are last. As in....we spend the entire time doing what she wants, when wants, how she wants, etc....and then we have PIV. And she wants to lay there motionless usually. So while my needs are met at the end (the very end) - I am tired of having never been asked “What do you like? Want” etc..”
 

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Discussion Starter #450
That ignores several very real problems some people have.

Last year she tried a patch for a week to help address her low libido. After a week she took the patch off because she said the instructions were to complicated as to when and how to apply it, when to wear it etc...I was disappointed because it felt like (at the time) she did not care enough to fight through it and figure it out. :(
 

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Yes, my needs are last. As in....we spend the entire time doing what she wants, when wants, how she wants, etc....and then we have PIV. And she wants to lay there motionless usually. So while my needs are met at the end (the very end) - I am tired of having never been asked “What do you like? Want” etc..”
Notice I didn't say ask her how she wants to have sex. I doubt she knows how to have an orgasm. But I've already agreed with you. It's time to divorce. You don't feel loved or appreciated due to sexual needs, it's common. And I have no doubt you can find someone to have enthusiastic sex with after the divorce.
 

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Discussion Starter #452
Notice I didn't say ask her how she wants to have sex. I doubt she knows how to have an orgasm. But I've already agreed with you. It's time to divorce. You don't feel loved or appreciated due to sexual needs, it's common. And I have no doubt you can find someone to have enthusiastic sex with after the divorce.
I am preparing myself for either scenario once we talk. I have the basic word track in my head and now that I have gotten over the actual not having sex in a looonggg time - my head is clear. I am prepared to tell her the things I have previously held back on because I thought I saw some progress.
 

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I am preparing myself for either scenario once we talk. I have the basic word track in my head and now that I have gotten over the actual not having sex in a looonggg time - my head is clear. I am prepared to tell her the things I have previously held back on because I thought I saw some progress.
I would suggest you do not approach it from the perspective of trying to convince her that more intimacy is needed. You've wasted enough breath on that. If she doesn't understand it after 20+ years, don't waste any more years trying to explain your needs. Rather, tell her that you realize that she doesn't like intimacy and you're tired of feeling like you're forcing her to do something which should be a loving part of a good marriage. Tell her you've decided to figure out other ways to fill that void in your life, such as new hobbies, hanging out with friends, etc. Tell her that you're pulling away because being close to her brings up those feelings of intimacy, so by pulling away you won't feel that frustration. But also tell her that likely means you will fall out of love with her since intimacy and love are tightly tied together in your emotions. Without one, the other will fade. Likely this means you will end up divorcing after a while. It's not that you're saying "have sex or we'll divorce", but rather "without intimacy I won't feel love, and without love there won't be a marriage." If she doesn't realize that a marriage without intimacy is a bad marriage, that's her problem to work on.

Hopefully she takes the message to heart and takes on the work to changing her outlook, but if she doesn't, realize it's over. She should take major steps to fix the situation. But if instead it's all about how you have to change every aspect of yourself and remove every stressful thing in her life, don't bother.
 

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Discussion Starter #454
I would suggest you do not approach it from the perspective of trying to convince her that more intimacy is needed. You've wasted enough breath on that. If she doesn't understand it after 20+ years, don't waste any more years trying to explain your needs. Rather, tell her that you realize that she doesn't like intimacy and you're tired of feeling like you're forcing her to do something which should be a loving part of a good marriage. Tell her you've decided to figure out other ways to fill that void in your life, such as new hobbies, hanging out with friends, etc. Tell her that you're pulling away because being close to her brings up those feelings of intimacy, so by pulling away you won't feel that frustration. But also tell her that likely means you will fall out of love with her since intimacy and love are tightly tied together in your emotions. Without one, the other will fade. Likely this means you will end up divorcing after a while. It's not that you're saying "have sex or we'll divorce", but rather "without intimacy I won't feel love, and without love there won't be a marriage." If she doesn't realize that a marriage without intimacy is a bad marriage, that's her problem to work on.

Hopefully she takes the message to heart and takes on the work to changing her outlook, but if she doesn't, realize it's over. She should take major steps to fix the situation. But if instead it's all about how you have to change every aspect of yourself and remove every stressful thing in her life, don't bother.
That's good advice. I can work that narrative into the conversation. Thanks.
 

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Last year she tried a patch for a week to help address her low libido. After a week she took the patch off because she said the instructions were to complicated as to when and how to apply it, when to wear it etc...I was disappointed because it felt like (at the time) she did not care enough to fight through it and figure it out. :(
Keep mind how little effort she puts into fixing the situation given the magnitude that it affects you. If figuring out a patch is too much work, that says a lot about how much she cares about your feelings and fixing this issue. I doubt that the patch was "too much work". It sounds like a kid saying "my stomach hurts" when they don't want to go to school. I'm sure if the patch did something she wanted (like eliminating wrinkles), she would have figured it out.

When she pushes back in your conversation, just be totally nonchalant about it. Rather than engaging and providing counter arguments, say something like, "Ok, that's fine. Like I said, I have some new hobbies to keep to keep me interested. "

To be honest, because of her disinterest, I think you should just go ahead with a divorce. I am doubtful if there will be any real change in her that will bring you true satisfaction. But I can see giving her an opportunity to change for the sake of the kids. Especially with the CV19 situation, it's going to be tough to make major changes to your living situation right now. It's important for you to have the mindset that you are in control of your happiness and figure out how to achieve that rather than feeling like you need her to change for you to be happy.
 

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Discussion Starter #456
Keep mind how little effort she puts into fixing the situation given the magnitude that it affects you. If figuring out a patch is too much work, that says a lot about how much she cares about your feelings and fixing this issue. I doubt that the patch was "too much work". It sounds like a kid saying "my stomach hurts" when they don't want to go to school. I'm sure if the patch did something she wanted (like eliminating wrinkles), she would have figured it out.

When she pushes back in your conversation, just be totally nonchalant about it. Rather than engaging and providing counter arguments, say something like, "Ok, that's fine. Like I said, I have some new hobbies to keep to keep me interested. "

To be honest, because of her disinterest, I think you should just go ahead with a divorce. I am doubtful if there will be any real change in her that will bring you true satisfaction. But I can see giving her an opportunity to change for the sake of the kids. Especially with the CV19 situation, it's going to be tough to make major changes to your living situation right now. It's important for you to have the mindset that you are in control of your happiness and figure out how to achieve that rather than feeling like you need her to change for you to be happy.
Yeah. The conversation is coming - could be tonight. She is dropping off my MIL/SIL at the airport. We have a few schedule issues to resolve next week. She will try to bring it up “Everything ok? You seemed kinda disconnected? Etc..” I can see it already on her face. I am ready. The only downside is we don’t have the time tonight we really need to have the deeper conversation. And CV19 is not helping the cause AT ALL.
 

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One thing -- she may try to turn this into a YOU JUST WANT SEX. Make sure you keep it at the I want INTIMACY level...
 

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Discussion Starter #458
One thing -- she may try to turn this into a YOU JUST WANT SEX. Make sure you keep it at the I want INTIMACY level...
Also noted. Yes. We have been down that path before too — prior to our trip to Costa. And YES - I had to recalibrate my approach some so as she didn’t feel like an object per say - more spooning, handholding, being more gentle. And that did work SOME — but we never really got beyond your basic missionary, starfish, duty performance etc....and when we do (like maybe she lays on top of me - which I like - I like that body weight feeling) she usually practically frozen in place. I can tell she is terribly uncomfortable and just wants to move on to PIV.
 

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I am. No sex is working. She is starting to realize things are bad. When she finally asks “What’s up?” We will have the conversation we’ve needed to have a loooong time ago.
It’s working. Slowly. I will have to turn down sex soon because she will eventually ask about it. Then I will say “let’s talk”.
Yeah. The conversation is coming - could be tonight. She is dropping off my MIL/SIL at the airport. We have a few schedule issues to resolve next week. She will try to bring it up “Everything ok? You seemed kinda disconnected? Etc..” I can see it already on her face. I am ready. The only downside is we don’t have the time tonight we really need to have the deeper conversation. And CV19 is not helping the cause AT ALL.
Respectfully, no, no, no, what you are doing is not working at all. You are passive-aggressively not initiating sex and using that as a driver for her to initiate a conversation (or series of conversations) you should have led years ago. This passive aggressive behavior is simply continuing the same hamster wheel exercise you've been futilely engaged in for the last four years, and you shouldn't expect a different result. You've been less than honest with yourself, telling yourself that there have been incremental improvements, when all that has happened is that the frequency has slightly increased overall.

You still don't have a willing and engaged sexual partner and, worse (and not coincidentally), you don't have the emotional intimacy and mutual trust you need between you and N to have frank but supportive conversations about this issue. Intentionally or subconsciously, you and she have continued to hide behind your busy lives as an excuse for not developing emotional intimacy, which is step 1 for both a good sex life and the conversation you want to have.

Four years in, you still don't know why N doesn't enjoy sex with you. You don't know why she doesn't orgasm most of the time with you. You don't know what she fantasizes about in a sexual partner or experience. You don't know what's holding her back. You don't know whether her past has any bearing on her present attitude toward sex. And you can't just whip out those questions in a talk out of the blue and expect to get a real answer or have a real and productive conversation if she doesn't feel safe and emotionally connected to talk about them with you. This is what MEM2020 tried to get you to confront years ago, but your posts seemed to ignore his questions, so here again you find yourself because you have not dealt with the root of the situation and are still focused on just one symptom. Frustrated or not, ambushing N with a "let's talk" is not going to have the outcome you want.

Were I in your shoes, that's where I would start. Getting in better shape, setting healthy boundaries and taking care of yourself is great. You should be doing that anyway. You want a wife invested in your sex life? Start by getting her invested in you emotionally and, even more importantly, investing in her emotionally. That missing piece may be what's holding her back. At a minimum, that gap is preventing you from finding out what's really at issue.

I appreciate this post may sound harsh, but I speak from personal experience. After having kids, my sex life with my wife went to heck. We were the picture of awesome roommates, co-parents and business partners, but lovers we were not. After a year of haranguing her, I eventually got our frequency back to where I wanted it, but her heart was almost never in it. Trying to talk to my wife about sex would usually cause her to shut down. Not coincidentally, our emotional connection was nil. We both had emotional walls up, and we used the business of life as a distraction to avoid emotional intimacy.

Separately, I began to see a counselor for FOO issues, and in doing so I began to see all the walls I had put up, even with my wife. Long story short, as I began to take those walls down and make myself vulnerable and begin to initiate emotional intimacy, I was shocked at how she began to open up as well. It didn't happen overnight, but she also began to feel more comfortable talking about sex. Some of those conversations were hard, and we're still a work in progress, but that has translated into us both really trying to be better sexual partners for each other.

Good luck to you, MIA. Rooting for you!
 

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Discussion Starter #460
Respectfully, no, no, no, what you are doing is not working at all. You are passive-aggressively not initiating sex and using that as a driver for her to initiate a conversation (or series of conversations) you should have led years ago. This passive aggressive behavior is simply continuing the same hamster wheel exercise you've been futilely engaged in for the last four years, and you shouldn't expect a different result. You've been less than honest with yourself, telling yourself that there have been incremental improvements, when all that has happened is that the frequency has slightly increased overall.

You still don't have a willing and engaged sexual partner and, worse (and not coincidentally), you don't have the emotional intimacy and mutual trust you need between you and N to have frank but supportive conversations about this issue. Intentionally or subconsciously, you and she have continued to hide behind your busy lives as an excuse for not developing emotional intimacy, which is step 1 for both a good sex life and the conversation you want to have.

Four years in, you still don't know why N doesn't enjoy sex with you. You don't know why she doesn't orgasm most of the time with you. You don't know what she fantasizes about in a sexual partner or experience. You don't know what's holding her back. You don't know whether her past has any bearing on her present attitude toward sex. And you can't just whip out those questions in a talk out of the blue and expect to get a real answer or have a real and productive conversation if she doesn't feel safe and emotionally connected to talk about them with you. This is what MEM2020 tried to get you to confront years ago, but your posts seemed to ignore his questions, so here again you find yourself because you have not dealt with the root of the situation and are still focused on just one symptom. Frustrated or not, ambushing N with a "let's talk" is not going to have the outcome you want.

Were I in your shoes, that's where I would start. Getting in better shape, setting healthy boundaries and taking care of yourself is great. You should be doing that anyway. You want a wife invested in your sex life? Start by getting her invested in you emotionally and, even more importantly, investing in her emotionally. That missing piece may be what's holding her back. At a minimum, that gap is preventing you from finding out what's really at issue.

I appreciate this post may sound harsh, but I speak from personal experience. After having kids, my sex life with my wife went to heck. We were the picture of awesome roommates, co-parents and business partners, but lovers we were not. After a year of haranguing her, I eventually got our frequency back to where I wanted it, but her heart was almost never in it. Trying to talk to my wife about sex would usually cause her to shut down. Not coincidentally, our emotional connection was nil. We both had emotional walls up, and we used the business of life as a distraction to avoid emotional intimacy.

Separately, I began to see a counselor for FOO issues, and in doing so I began to see all the walls I had put up, even with my wife. Long story short, as I began to take those walls down and make myself vulnerable and begin to initiate emotional intimacy, I was shocked at how she began to open up as well. It didn't happen overnight, but she also began to feel more comfortable talking about sex. Some of those conversations were hard, and we're still a work in progress, but that has translated into us both really trying to be better sexual partners for each other.

Good luck to you, MIA. Rooting for you!
Thanks for rooting for me. Everything you said is true - I don’t deny it. I have tried and tried (and tried) to rebuild that trust with my DW. I know we have a weak emotional connection. I worked on myself for 5 years. We are having our “reset“ conversation Monday night. We have had a few of these that I can recall YE18, mid 19, Now. This conversation will be different - with me being more upfront, candid, truly transparent, more confrontational. There are several levels to this conversation — not just about our ****ty sex life.
 
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