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In the demanding perfection thing, there are two arguments that annoy me.

- When she insists that washing the dishes before using them or after is equally clean and tidy. Yet, actually chooses to use a clean one instead. In this case, she was a victim when challenged and dumped and I was demanding perfection.

- "I cannot reach his impossible standards! So there is no point in contributing anything" - if it were a genuine problem, the solution would be he does the basics of cleaning and you finish off to your standards. I recall my ex-wife using that arguement, but we did MC in Denmark and the MC tore that to pieces (very politely).


First off... I really appreciate that your on this form because I like getting perspective from people that are able to put themselves in my boyfriends position so I can learn. I may not necessarily agree with you, but they doesn’t mean I don’t take in what your saying.

As far as your wife goes I totally get her perspective, I hate asking and I don’t think I have to. It’s a bad thing when someone checks out and waits to be asked because they feel like nothing is ever good enough. I don’t want this to be my future. But at the same time, I want my man to step up more.

I don’t want a mom/son relationship. This is what I fear. I don’t want to tell my man what to do, I don’t want to scold him, I don’t want to feel like I am taking care of him, I don’t want him to fear making me mad. I don’t want to be mean mommy. There will be a lot of resentment on both sides and I honestly think that’s why people eventually get divorced or cheat.

I think you and I can learn a lot from each other.
 

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So I think that he thinks he doesn’t live with me so why would he help, I also think he thinks he does help (he does help a little but it’s not consistent), he also thinks that I demand perfection. And another thing is, he is working so much lately. That’s things from his perspective.
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This is exactly when a person who cares deeply or loves another goes above and beyond, of what is expected. And when a person works excessive hours. And then does without being asked proves to the other you are so important to me l do this for you.

Your not really demanding perfection, what you really seeking is confirmation that your mate puts you first.

But when his excuse is he doesn't live with you, is a wimps way out. In a conversation you have in the future ask him if he take the trash out there. I bet not. He the type of using people so if he can get away with it he will. A man of low to no integrity. But you still bending over too much for him.
 

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Really? Because, it is another form of the "the other sex are rubbish" argument, that people do to avoid looking at themselves or giving responsibility to their partners.


I am all about looking at myself. That’s why I listed his perspective and I am able to take it in. I do understand where my boyfriend is coming from. That’s the thing.... I can argue his point of view, and I can argue my point of view.
 

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This is exactly when a person who cares deeply or loves another goes above and beyond, of what is expected. And when a person works excessive hours. And then does without being asked proves to the other you are so important to me l do this for you.



Your not really demanding perfection, what you really seeking is confirmation that your mate puts you first.



But when his excuse is he doesn't live with you, is a wimps way out. In a conversation you have in the future ask him if he take the trash out there. I bet not. He the type of using people so if he can get away with it he will. A man of low to no integrity. But you still bending over too much for him.


I agree with you. He’s a little spoiled and entitled and I am not helping the situation.
 

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I am all about looking at myself. That’s why I listed his perspective and I am able to take it in. I do understand where my boyfriend is coming from. That’s the thing.... I can argue his point of view, and I can argue my point of view.
Then well done! (sorry for patronising).

I do get that impression of you I remember on my original thread on here, I wrote a post as to how I thought my wife would describe the situation. Many posters on here could not grasp the concept and a few assumed I must have been lying once they heard a different story from my "wife"!
 

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I am going to Miami for a work conference next week and my work is Paying for most of it. I’m in lecture till 12 everyday then I’m free. I told my boyfriend to come, that it will be a free vacation for him except he has to pay for his flight. He said yes.

A month before the trip I have to remind him to buy his plane tickets. (Tickets get more and more expensive). He doesn’t buy them. I remind him multiple times a week. He’s stressed at work. I tell him that it’s really important to me that he comes, because we both really need a vacation and we need time together. He says he will. His work said he can go, but will have to video in for a couple meetings. I kept reminding him to buy his tickets. He does less than a week before. Then yesterday he realizes he put in the wrong date, and he’s pissed off. And now the cheapest tickets are like $600. He is so angry and mad and I am just biting my tongue bc all I want to say is... I told you to buy them earlier, and also your complaining about a free vacation!!

So anyway.... I’m not sure he is going to go. He is so stressed about it. I leave this Sunday (2 days). Last night when we were in bed, he was saying how stressed out he was, and I nicely said... well I told you to buy them earlier. And something about how he should feel lucky it’s a free vacation but for some reason he doesn’t think that way. Anyway... needless to say he wasn’t happy about my response as he went to bed without talking.

I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.
 

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I am going to Miami for a work conference next week and my work is Paying for most of it. I’m in lecture till 12 everyday then I’m free. I told my boyfriend to come, that it will be a free vacation for him except he has to pay for his flight. He said yes.

A month before the trip I have to remind him to buy his plane tickets. (Tickets get more and more expensive). He doesn’t buy them. I remind him multiple times a week. He’s stressed at work. I tell him that it’s really important to me that he comes, because we both really need a vacation and we need time together. He says he will. His work said he can go, but will have to video in for a couple meetings. I kept reminding him to buy his tickets. He does less than a week before. Then yesterday he realizes he put in the wrong date, and he’s pissed off. And now the cheapest tickets are like $600. He is so angry and mad and I am just biting my tongue bc all I want to say is... I told you to buy them earlier, and also your complaining about a free vacation!!

So anyway.... I’m not sure he is going to go. He is so stressed about it. I leave this Sunday (2 days). Last night when we were in bed, he was saying how stressed out he was, and I nicely said... well I told you to buy them earlier. And something about how he should feel lucky it’s a free vacation but for some reason he doesn’t think that way. Anyway... needless to say he wasn’t happy about my response as he went to bed without talking.

I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.
Honestly, that may be the best, he's definitely not that into you sorry. He just expects everyone to fix things for him. Yes entitled is correct.
 

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Discussion Starter #68 (Edited)
I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.

Boy... seen this plenty of times before. Handled like a teenager:

1) Doesn’t want to go but doesn’t want the fight so says “sure”
2) Delay
3) Delay some more hopes you don’t bring it up
4) Start looking for reasons “out of my control” so you can’t go
5) Find reason where partner would let you out of it without ill feelings.
5) Enjoy not going, still be the good guy
6) Invalidate partner’s frustration and they need to “let it go”
7) Problem solved

Sure hope he surprises you down there though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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Honestly, that may be the best, he's definitely not that into you sorry. He just expects everyone to fix things for him. Yes entitled is correct.


I actually think he wants to marry me. But he’s clearly lazy and he thinks he has me in the bag so to speak.
 

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I actually think he wants to marry me. But he’s clearly lazy and he thinks he has me in the bag so to speak.
Wow, really? You hear the advice given here to spouse's who have and hold resentment until it builds so much it becomes unbearable. Is this what you really want?

Some where in your mind do you think your that special wife who can change her husband? You can't and won't, change him spare yourself the time and pain lost and move on. Your story about the plane tickets, say volumes.
 

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Wow, really? You hear the advice given here to spouse's who have and hold resentment until it builds so much it becomes unbearable. Is this what you really want?



Some where in your mind do you think your that special wife who can change her husband? You can't and won't, change him spare yourself the time and pain lost and move on. Your story about the plane tickets, say volumes.


I’m not saying that. I’m saying I think he wants to marry me, he’s asked about what kind of engagement rings I like etc.

This whole Miami situation has got me fuming. So things will be addressed and we shall see what happens to us. Right now I’m focusing on having a relaxing vacation because I deserve it.
 

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I’m not saying that. I’m saying I think he wants to marry me, he’s asked about what kind of engagement rings I like etc.

This whole Miami situation has got me fuming. So things will be addressed and we shall see what happens to us. Right now I’m focusing on having a relaxing vacation because I deserve it.
Just don't forget YOU DESERVE IT!!

And l am not just talking about the vacation.

but just because he asked what you like, still doesn't mean Diddley,
 

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Girl_power, this is just like this thread title states, is their a double standard. Why is it required that a woman should eat crap to accept the man. And l ask Girl_power why does she believe historically it must be the woman who would have to do this.

Help me understand this Girl_power? Please explain.
 

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Girl_power, this is just like this thread title states, is their a double standard. Why is it required that a woman should eat crap to accept the man. And l ask Girl_power why does she believe historically it must be the woman who would have to do this.



Help me understand this Girl_power? Please explain.


It’s just my upbringing and my personal experience that men are just like that. My dad was like this. Even though my mom stayed home and never worked, my dad never lifted a finger. He has no idea how to take care of himself. He went from his moms house to married. Today my dad is retired and still doesn’t know how to cook, clean, do laundry, run the dishwasher, or use the microwave. If my mom didn’t cook, my dad would eat McDonald’s everyday. So that’s what I was use to. My brothers are she same way. I was just raised not to expect much from men.

Don’t get me wrong, my dad has a good heart. But he is clueless. He doesn’t realize how disrespectful his behavior is to my mom. He doesn’t see it that way. But my dad has to be told what to do always. He’s never helped my mom with any housework, ever.


So when I am with someone who is lazy, I kind of think about the men in my family, their not bad people, and they have good sides to them. And I rationalize it.
Whenever I call my mom and vent about it she always says... what do you expect that’s the way men are. And basically gives off the vibe that I’m expecting too much from men and basically that’s how all men are and I’ll be single forever if I don’t put up with it.
 

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I’m expecting too much from men and basically that’s how all men are and I’ll be single forever if I don’t put up with it.
Your mom says this.... but what I want to know is......do you BELIEVE it ?

In your mom's day, it's likely that most men were just like the one she married. People tend to do what they saw modeled in their family-of-origin.
Your dad did what your grandpa did. Your mom did what your grandma did.

And now, you are looking to marry a man who is like your dad ? And, you are doing what your mom did ?

.....I think you do believe it.....

And, I base my thought on this statement:

I kind of think about the men in my family, their not bad people, and they have good sides to them. And I rationalize it.
So, would you say that you feel "safe" with this man ?

I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.
Dishonest.

Dishonest with him. But worse, it's dishonest to yourself. He should know where the "deal-breakers" lie..... now, in your own words, you are "fuming" about this trip.

You should have told him when the subject came up that you expect him to go with you, and if he doesn't, it's a deal-breaker. Because, that is THE TRUTH. "doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to" is NOT THE TRUTH.

Go ahead and rationalize some more. You will be 50 and still single. Or, worse, you will get married and it will end in a divorce. Or, worse yet, you will "fume" to yourself, "put up with it" so that you aren't single (but you would be a hell of a lot happier if you were).
 

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Your mom says this.... but what I want to know is......do you BELIEVE it ?



In your mom's day, it's likely that most men were just like the one she married. People tend to do what they saw modeled in their family-of-origin.

Your dad did what your grandpa did. Your mom did what your grandma did.



And now, you are looking to marry a man who is like your dad ? And, you are doing what your mom did ?



.....I think you do believe it.....


I don’t believe it. Men should help out around the house.

I am in a situation where I don’t live with my boyfriend, so it’s different. My boyfriend says men should do housework. He was raised with a strong mom who worked full time and his dad stay home with the kids.
 

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I disagree. I would not clean my girlfriend’s apartment if I didn’t live there. Sure, I’d help out if asked, but if was expected of me, that wouldn’t work for me personally. I’ve got my own house to tend to. I would expect girlfriend to clean my house either, feed my dog or take out my trash.
 

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Your mom says this.... but what I want to know is......do you BELIEVE it ?

In your mom's day, it's likely that most men were just like the one she married. People tend to do what they saw modeled in their family-of-origin.
Your dad did what your grandpa did. Your mom did what your grandma did.

And now, you are looking to marry a man who is like your dad ? And, you are doing what your mom did ?

.....I think you do believe it.....

And, I base my thought on this statement:



So, would you say that you feel "safe" with this man ?



Dishonest.

Dishonest with him. But worse, it's dishonest to yourself. He should know where the "deal-breakers" lie..... now, in your own words, you are "fuming" about this trip.

You should have told him when the subject came up that you expect him to go with you, and if he doesn't, it's a deal-breaker. Because, that is THE TRUTH. "doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to" is NOT THE TRUTH.

Go ahead and rationalize some more. You will be 50 and still single. Or, worse, you will get married and it will end in a divorce. Or, worse yet, you will "fume" to yourself, "put up with it" so that you aren't single (but you would be a hell of a lot happier if you were).


I told him a month ago that this is important to me. I made it clear.

I told him he doesn’t have to go because I am not going to force him to take a vacation with me. You can’t force people to treat you right. He has free will. I told him it’s important to me. I made it clear from my end. The rest is up to him. I give him rope and he will do what he wants with it.

If he knows I’m fuming, he will buy the tickets. I don’t want him to buy the tickets because I’m upset. I want him to buy the tickets because he knows it’s impotent to me. That distinction is critical. I am not trying to make him do what I want him to do, I can easily do that. I want to see what he does on his own, because it will tell me what I need to know about him.
 

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I am a little unsure of your post. You state each couple of different, then appear to say how they are all the same.

"If she doesn't fix it, then it results in withdrawal, stonewalling, unenthusiastic engagement with the family life, affairs, etc etc." - really, that is normal? Frankly, the way things are, I expect to be the active emotional support and the woman typically provides a person to love to inspire more.

"She must work outside the home and in the home; he works outside the home and comes home to drink beer or go play golf" - that is fantasy stuff. Really. I have seen culture where that is true, but they are rare. I grew up in th eUK and it is not true there in actual doing, but it is the what women say and men also play along with the narrative. But, clearly, it is not actually true. In Scandinavia, my partners said I did plenty round the house, in the UK, they said I did nothing. It was not the contribution that changed.

"There has been double standards for centuries, he has an affair, (oh poor guy, not being taken care of at home), she has an affair, (she is a ****)." - Again, not true. We see plenty of cases on here where the woman does not contribure and the man is trying to figure out what he is doing wrong. It used to be women were like furniture in a relationship, and the common will was the husband's will (so it would be poor him). Now, we have only moved half the way, and the man is seen more like the adult, responsible for the actions of the woman, so he is a hero if his marriage is good and a schmuck if his marriage is bad. It is still based on a sexist premise, but one that many feminists will fight hard to protect while also appealing to the Red Pill crowd.

"She works in an office in same position, probably does more work but gets 80% of the males pay (wage differential due to gender only)" - in which case men would never get a job. Why pay then 25% more. How about this, compare two people at a meeting. The first stands up, throws tough questions at the presenter and exposes flaws. Suggests a mitigation plan and leads straight off. The other speaks to the presenter afterwards, finds out the consensous in the office, then facilitiates a refined plan. The second is probably better, but the first (more masculine) approach fits in with our current image of an upcoming executive. It is feminity rather than women that is sidelined. I am in science as I am a working class man, and I had to earn money to prove myself and start a family. Had I been a woman, I am far more likely to go into the arts (which I am better at) and be earning about 50% of what I earn. There is sexism there, but it is the reverse of why it takes women a longer time getting ready to go out.

"On and on........." The commonality, that we see in films from America, is that women are seen as passive and judged by how they are treated. Women are heroic when they act in a masculine manner while still being attractive while passive to the male gaze. We saw in Game of Thrones how the screen writers could not write a feminine heroic character without her having to actmore like an action hero.

Since you are making generalisations, I thought I would too..........

TAM is hardly representative of the general population either to makhe the inferences you do.........

There is a plethora of academic research on the gendered division of housework
e.g. Lachance-Grzela, M. and Bouchard, G., 2010. Why do women do the lion’s share of housework? A decade of research. Sex roles, 63(11-12), pp.767-780.

OMG, you are saying that a woman in the same industry should not get paid the same amount as a man even if she is doing the same work as a man, same role, same responsibilties.

I don't know what planet you live on but even in progressive countries like the UK we have wage differentials due to gender, men simply get paid more that a woman in the same role, it is discrimination, e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/gender-pay-gap-equal-pay-women-paid-less-motherhood-a8856121.html This is happening now!

I am a qualified accountant, I aced all my professional exams even when my male peers didn't, I started work on pay less than my male peers, why? In my current role as a Director, I get paid less, though I bring in more numbers, so you tell me what has femininity got to do with it, it is an issue, one which the European governments recognise.
Your thinking sounds like something out of the 1950's. My education cost the same as my male counterparts, I work probably harder, so you are telling me because a man has more testosterone he ought to be paid more? I am not asking for more, I am asking for equal pay.
 

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Since you are making generalisations, I thought I would too..........

TAM is hardly representative of the general population either to makhe the inferences you do.........

There is a plethora of academic research on the gendered division of housework
e.g. Lachance-Grzela, M. and Bouchard, G., 2010. Why do women do the lion’s share of housework? A decade of research. Sex roles, 63(11-12), pp.767-780.

OMG, you are saying that a woman in the same industry should not get paid the same amount as a man even if she is doing the same work as a man, same role, same responsibilties.

I don't know what planet you live on but even in progressive countries like the UK we have wage differentials due to gender, men simply get paid more that a woman in the same role, it is discrimination, e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/gender-pay-gap-equal-pay-women-paid-less-motherhood-a8856121.html This is happening now!

I am a qualified accountant, I aced all my professional exams even when my male peers didn't, I started work on pay less than my male peers, why? In my current role as a Director, I get paid less, though I bring in more numbers, so you tell me what has femininity got to do with it, it is an issue, one which the European governments recognise.
Your thinking sounds like something out of the 1950's. My education cost the same as my male counterparts, I work probably harder, so you are telling me because a man has more testosterone he ought to be paid more? I am not asking for more, I am asking for equal pay.
Well done to you.

I actually reread my post and am not sure how you got that impression.

We see a correlation. We do not know the cause. Certainly, people have an image of what a top paid person should be and that is posh whilte and male. Those things are easy to measure. There will also be a way of acting, I would suggest femininity is discriminated against, but that is more difficult to measure than which sex people are.
 
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